December 24, 2021, 09:45 AM | #1 |
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Guns as gifts
I saw a recent YouTube video from the Gun Collective. They seemed to imply that giving guns as gifts was illegal but maybe that was under their state law of Pennsylvania. I always thought giving guns was legal, at least Federally so long as the person was not prohibited and money wasn't exchanged for it. And of course some circumstances may require an FFL for transfer.
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December 24, 2021, 09:58 AM | #2 |
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In Pennsylvania, handguns must be transferred through a FFL. I researched that to gift my brother a revolver a few years back. I believe that long guns are OK in state (check with the AG website). Of course, federal law requires any transfer across state lines must go through a FFL.
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December 24, 2021, 01:19 PM | #3 | |
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When in the doubt, go through "your" local FFL.
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December 24, 2021, 01:41 PM | #4 |
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My parents gave me a Ruger 10/22 as a Christmas gift about 20 years ago, it was by far one of the best Christmas gifts of all time. I was a teenager at the time, unable to legally purchase one myself, and it was a gift. Form 4473 even asks if the gun is for you or a gift (in legal-ese terms of course, insofar as to state something along the lines of “is the transferee legally allowed to own the firearm”).
When you purchase the gun, at least in the great state of PA, you are not required to register them, so once you go through the federal hoops, it is a common commodity with value and can be traded or given as such. That is as far as I have been informed. I could be wrong. |
December 24, 2021, 06:33 PM | #5 |
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It depends.
Are they prohibited persons? Are they residents of the same state as you? Does your state have specific laws on transfers? |
December 25, 2021, 10:42 AM | #6 |
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I can see them prosecuting, saying that when you buy planning to give away you are not the "actual transferee."
You'd be okay unless the person you gave the gun to flips out and shoots up his school, as seems to happening every week or so now. |
December 25, 2021, 01:11 PM | #7 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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December 25, 2021, 05:27 PM | #8 |
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^^^ This.
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December 25, 2021, 06:20 PM | #9 |
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Yup, but you better hope that after the kid shoots up the school he doesn't then tell the cops, in answer to that question:
"Well, Dad did promise me he'd get me the shotgun if I did all my summer chores without complaining." See what I'm getting at? Probably 99% of all gifted guns are gifts between immediate family members -- parent(s) to offspring or vice-versa constituting the great majority of those. I think the law should be that transfers between immediate family members are exempt so long as the transferee is not prohibited by federal law from possessing the firearm. I also think that regardless of what transpired before, if the transferee in the (first 4473) planned to, and did, go thru an FFL (second 4473) before making the transfer, that should not be considered a violation of the NFA. Four of the 9 members of the SCOTUS agreed that WAS the law in the Abramski case, but were out-voted, thanks to the anti-gun members appointed. |
December 25, 2021, 08:57 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...013-01-23.html
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December 26, 2021, 03:29 AM | #11 |
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Yes, I am well aware of all that. And the fact that the feds announced he was being investigated for bank robbery (though he was never charged).
I didn't say he was a great guy, I said he did not break any federal law. And 4 of 9 on the SCOTUS agreed with that. Gift is not an important distinction. You can buy a firearm PLANNING on selling it, and still be the "actual transferee." You just cannot have the resale deal in place, or having gotten money in advance, because then you are a straw-man, in the eyes of the ATF now. Last edited by JohnKSa; December 26, 2021 at 05:09 AM. Reason: L&CR is not about how we think things should be--rather about what the laws say and how they are administered. |
December 26, 2021, 05:07 AM | #12 | |||
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If the firearm is not a gift--if there is quid pro quo going on--then that's another story. Abramski is irrelevant as no one involved claimed the firearm was a gift. Quote:
2. Irrelevant to this discussion since the gun was not a gift. Quote:
It is since the law specifically exempts gifts.
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December 26, 2021, 11:21 AM | #13 |
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My point was that the "gift exclusion" is a trap for the unwary. The normal parent is not going to believe that telling the teenager he will get that new shotgun he wants if he does all the yard mowing next summer, the way the kid is supposed to, will blow the "gift exclusion" meaning the parent can be sent to prison for 10 years for "lying" on the 4473.
Same thing with the Abramski rule. Say my son, who lives in another state, spots a varmint rifle he knows I have been looking for years, in a LGS there, but they will not ship it. I ask him to buy it and ship it to my FFL and say I will reimburse him for everything. If he does that, BAM! He can be sent to prison for 10 years. Sorry, I just think we should be asking for changes, not just saying, "Oh, well, the Supreme Court has ruled." Any thing you buy intending to transfer to someone else ONLY IF they pass a NICS at an FFL should be exempt. |
December 26, 2021, 02:03 PM | #14 | ||||
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Here's a clue: For the purposes of this sub-forum no one cares what you think the law should be, and your wishes on the subject don't matter one, tiny wit. The point of trying to understand what the law really is and how things actually work is to better be able to make choices that further one's interests while avoiding to the extent possible the snares and tripwires of legal entanglements. No matter what make believe law you might want to be real, it is not real; and things will be done in the real world according to real law. Quote:
And again, the fact that you think that, "...regardless of what transpired before, if the transferee in the (first 4473) planned to, and did, go thru an FFL (second 4473) before making the transfer, that should not be considered a violation..." is completely irrelevant. That is not what the law is, and your notions about what the law should be won't matter. Quote:
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In real life in the real world, the the legal system decides, through judicial process, disputes, disagreements, controversies, or legal questions. Law, including constitutions, statutes, regulations, and decisions of courts of appeal, is a tool used by courts to decide the the issues brought to court for resolution. While the parties may argue what the law is that is applicable to the case, it's up to the court, in the exercise of its judicial function to decide what law actually does apply and how it applies to the facts to decide the outcome. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177), "...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is....." In real life in the real world if courts aren't deciding matters using what you think the law is, your understanding of what the law is is wrong. The opinions of courts on matters of law affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Your opinions and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee. The Founding Fathers well understood how people do disagree and how politics works. They were active, mostly successfully, in the commercial and political world of the time. Almost all were very well educated. They were generally politically savvy. Many were members at various times of their home colonial assemblies or were otherwise active in local government or administration. They were solidly grounded in the real world and knew how to make things work in the real world. That is why they were able to bring our nation into being. Of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers. Of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers. And they left us a system in which we can influence what laws are enacted and how they are administered. We live in a pluralistic, political society, and not everyone thinks as you do. People have varying beliefs, values, needs, wants and fears. People have differing views on the proper role of government. So while you and those who share your views may use the tools the Constitution, our laws and our system give you to promote your vision of how things should be, others may and will be using those same tools to promote their visions. The Constitution, our laws, and our system give you resources and remedies. You can associate with others who think as you do and exercise what political power that association gives you to influence legislation. You have the opportunity to try to join with enough other people to enable you to elect legislators and other public officials who you think will be more attuned to your interests. And others who believe differently have the same opportunities. So if you want things to be different, by all means, use the available processes to try to change things. But until things do change, we will need understand how to live with things as they really are.
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December 26, 2021, 02:48 PM | #15 | ||
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Eight is enough, it seems to me that you have been mkoving the goalposts in this discussion. In post #6 you wrote:
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Then, in post #9, you stated that you think transfers between immediate family members should be exempt. Many of us probably share that sentiment ... but that's not the law, so what you wish for doesn't change anything with respect to the original question. And then you ended post #9 by mentioning the Abramski case, which had nothing whatsoever to do with gifting a firearm. When I pointed out that the Abramski case was about a straw purchase rather than a gift, you then responded in post #11 that (1) Abramski did not break any federal law [but he did]; and then (2) that Quote:
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December 26, 2021, 03:03 PM | #16 | ||
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And here's a more detailed outlined regarding "straw purchase" law"
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