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Old February 5, 2020, 08:27 AM   #26
wild cat mccane
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Also, the 10mm results on the same sight had Magtech do almost the same expansion at 16" inches. 5 inch barrel.

I'd say the 380 is doing just fine...
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Old February 5, 2020, 05:17 PM   #27
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Federal worked its usual magic with the .380ACP HST, but just not enough mass & velocity to work with, IMO, to get both great expansion and adequate penetration.

IIRC, even the FBI does not disqualify a cartridge that does not penetrate enough, it just doesn't score as many point or whatnot.

I would have liked less expansion and more penetration, closer to 18".

The older Luckygunner tests show the Hornady FTX averaging a bit more than 15" of pen with all 5 pills expanding. I was hoping Federal and its HST mojo could have pushed that a bit deeper.

Still, I think I would be inclined to a flat point / truncated cone FMJ in .380ACP.
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Old February 5, 2020, 05:39 PM   #28
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Still, I think I would be inclined to a flat point / truncated cone FMJ in .380ACP.
That's my plan, just got a box of Sig 100gr FMJ. They have a flattened tip which is about 0.190" diameter across the flat part. I'm more interested in the additional weight than the tip. The best part is $18.99 for a box of 50.

The original .45 ACP was a 200gr bullet going 900 fps. The Army wanted something heavier, so John Browning came up with 230gr bullet going 850 fps. Same approach, but on a larger scale.

That's where I got the idea for the reduced velocity .380 for SD thread, but I'm not JB so I got a lot of flack. tsk tsk tsk

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Old February 5, 2020, 08:05 PM   #29
wild cat mccane
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A flat bullet meplat does nothing in the small cartridges. That includes 380. Zero gain. Nothing.

Everything you've heard about flat plates doesn't apply. It BEGINS at 44 magnum and only applies there with higher velocity is is more directed to RIFLE hunting rounds.
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Old February 5, 2020, 08:34 PM   #30
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A flat bullet meplat does nothing in the small cartridges. That includes 380. Zero gain. Nothing.
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That's my plan, just got a box of Sig 100gr FMJ. They have a flattened tip which is about 0.190" diameter across the flat part. I'm more interested in the additional weight than the tip. The best part is $18.99 for a box of 50.
Cripes.
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Old February 6, 2020, 10:16 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by wcm
A flat bullet meplat does nothing in the small cartridges. That includes 380. Zero gain. Nothing.

Everything you've heard about flat plates doesn't apply. It BEGINS at 44 magnum and only applies there with higher velocity is is more directed to RIFLE hunting rounds.
Not sure you're right about that.

The two commonly cited benefits of a flat point vs a round or pointed shape upon impact are:
1. Larger crush area/cavity relative to RN/pointed projectile
2. Straighter tracking through medium

Maybe #1 is lost below some velocity X.

But #2 is valid for other projectiles/bodies moving through other media, even at much lower velocities.

The case I have most experience with is RC aircraft. A sharp leading edge is much more likely to be buffeted up or down and/or be more sensitive to pitch input than is a more blunt leading edge. BTDT, got the wreckage. That phenomenon is used / manipulated when folk scratch build RC aircraft, after they have a few under their belt.
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Old February 7, 2020, 02:12 PM   #32
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I can
That is terrible penetration
Expansion doesn't make up for poor penetration
Such performance from a BUG, is absolutely superb... Keep in mind these are tiny pistols that will never be of any use to anyone beyond a few yards distance, if not just a few feet distance!
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Old February 7, 2020, 05:58 PM   #33
wild cat mccane
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Flat points do nothing until rifle rounds.

Here's your data:

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
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Old February 7, 2020, 09:49 PM   #34
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Hello All,
I didn't see this mentioned within the thread but Ammo Quest did the best review on the .380 acp round, IMHO. The modern .380 acp is worthy of consideration for concealed carry or deep concealment. I've been shooting for nearly 50 yrs and have no reservations carrying a .380, btw.

1) In regards to the Federal HST, he found the round to be unacceptable in the .380 caliber due to under penetration. See Video.

2) The two brands which won out was Fiocchi Extrema and Precision One. All of the .380 rounds in XTP performed excellent (expansion/penetration) but those two stood out. The Fiocchi run flawlessly out of our Bersa Thunder 380's and it is what I carry in those. It is a phenomenal round in .380.
See Video.

3) He later tested the Lehigh XP in .380 and then declared it to be the best for that round. I personally do not agree with his conclusion though or the advertising hype by Lehigh or Underwood. You should also take it with a grain of salt as to how reliable a ballistic gel test is in determining a wound cavity. I personally only consider it viable for comparing or determining penetration.

I think wound cavity cannot be judged with ballistic gel tests and much of the advertising hype associated with the Lehigh/Underwood rounds is bogus. They state the following in regards to the XP round "creating a permanent wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets" but they offer absolutely no proof of such!

I purchased a box of Lehigh XP .380 and performed a simple test comparing them to the Fiocchi .380 Extrema. The flutes of the XP round is supposed to create a significant amount of "hydraulic energy" which is attributed to it's purported devastating wound cavity that supposedly exceeds most hollow points (as advertised). So consider the following.

*We are made up of mostly water. So I filled several milk jugs with water and shot them with the XP round and the Extrema round. I used the same gun for the test and shot at a distance of 10 ft. There was absolutely no comparison! The Fiocchi Extrema round completely and violently blew apart it's jug. The XP round simply made a nice entry and exit hole while barely even moving the jug. It was no better than what a FMJ would have done in regards to stopping power. I repeated the test and exact same results. I contacted Lehigh and Underwood several times noting such and requested their proof of XP performance. Neither ever responded or provided proof of their XP claims.

I use the Fiocchi Extrema in my .380's with full confidence. I use the Federal HST in my 9mm as that is a devastating round in that caliber. Hope this helps someone and stay safe.

God Bless,
Ralph
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Old February 8, 2020, 09:19 AM   #35
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The XP round simply made a nice entry and exit hole while barely even moving the jug. It was no better than what a FMJ would have done in regards to stopping power. I repeated the test and exact same results. I contacted Lehigh and Underwood several times noting such and requested their proof of XP performance. Neither ever responded or provided proof of their XP claims.
I'd do the test again but use Xteme DEFENDER, not PENETRATOR rounds. I tried Xtreme DEFENDER .380 vs a 'meat target'...pork ribs over a watermelon with 6 layers of denim over that..and it absolutely destroyed the melon.

I know only one test and I recognize the marketing behind ANY product but Lehigh is pretty clear about the differences and best uses for Defender vs Penetrator. The 6 watermelon 'test', alternating XD and XP..

YMMV and all that.
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Old February 8, 2020, 04:12 PM   #36
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Quote by USNRet93...."I'd do the test again but use Xteme DEFENDER, not PENETRATOR rounds. I tried Xtreme DEFENDER .380 vs a 'meat target'...pork ribs over a watermelon with 6 layers of denim over that..and it absolutely destroyed the melon.

I know only one test and I recognize the marketing behind ANY product but Lehigh is pretty clear about the differences and best uses for Defender vs Penetrator. The 6 watermelon 'test', alternating XD and XP."
Hello USNRet93.

First, thanks for your service. My Dad served in both the Korean war (navy) as well as the Vietnam war (army) so here's a salute to the military!

In regards to the Lehigh XP and XD rounds. Yes, I know all of the marketing. I however would never choose the XD round at 65 gr. because it is to light for me as a self defense round. Especially when I can get the same results or even better with a much heavier and proven 90 gr hollow point.

If they made the XD in a 90gr or 95gr bullet I would consider it in the .380 round. It would also be legal in municipalities that have restrictions on hollow points. As it stands, the XTP round in .380 is proven to be a reliable round in regards to both expansion and penetration so that is what I keep in my .380's.

God Bless,
Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; February 9, 2020 at 08:28 PM.
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Old February 9, 2020, 06:25 AM   #37
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Flat points do nothing until rifle rounds.

Here's your data:

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html
@ which point - I'll counter with...

That "flat point" is called the meplat...

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Kno...allistics.html

& Randy Garrett - who BTW, used to be a member here many moons ago.
Randy was/is a good guy & he makes great ammunition & is a strong believer in the "flat point" (large meplat) concept. My own person research and experience tend to support the large meplat idea.

Last edited by Hal; February 9, 2020 at 06:37 AM.
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Old February 11, 2020, 04:33 PM   #38
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hal & wcm:

Informative articles.

wcm:

You article does not support your contention that "Flat points do nothing until rifle rounds."

My own experience with lower-velocity rounds indicates otherwise, with flat point projectiles causing more damage than round nose or pointed.
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Old February 12, 2020, 10:18 PM   #39
wild cat mccane
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Hum...I don't think you read your article?

All the discussion in your article are rifle rounds. 458 is a rifle round.

The only mention of a 9mm size is the metplat has to be at least the size of 9mm. Flat. No 380/9mm/40/45 have a metplat that large. And that's the minimum. And we're still talking beyond pistol capable velocity required.

Just like I said. Flat surface doesn't do anything in anything below 44mag. And it has to be a hot 44mag (rifle fired) to start doing what you think it does.

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Old February 12, 2020, 10:33 PM   #40
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Pretty nice, but I'll stick with XTPs for my LCP. I'd much rather have 12-17" of penetration with moderate expansion, although I'm sure that the HST would get the job done in most cases.
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Old February 13, 2020, 03:00 AM   #41
Hal
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Just like I said. Flat surface doesn't do anything in anything below 44mag. And it has to be a hot 44mag (rifle fired) to start doing what you think it does.
Are you seriously going to keep insisting that the entire ammunition making world is wrong about trying to make bullets that have expanding fronts?

After all - what is the face of an expanded bullet - but flat?

& why? Because it works.

I'm sorry but - this is too ridiculous for any further back and forth.
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Old February 13, 2020, 09:20 AM   #42
wild cat mccane
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Hollow points don't expand because they are flat....

It's the cavity.

The hollow point is good because it slows the bullet down while expanding.

A flat full metal jacket doesn't expand.

So you're a bit off here.


We are talking about a flat metplat causing more destruction. Both your link and mine show they do, ONLY in rifle rounds with a (flat) metplat surface starting at the entire width of 9mm. They do nothing in handgun ammunition. Nothing. All that internet myth.
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Old February 13, 2020, 09:41 AM   #43
wild cat mccane
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Garrett catridge was mentioned as disproving what I said.

In fact, if you read their website, it shows it is exactly what I said.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/meplats.html
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Old February 13, 2020, 09:49 AM   #44
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.380

The discussion concerns this ammo fired in a pocket pistol and it's performance.

There are some CCW individuals who for one reason or another are restricted to the size of a pocket .380, only.

This ammo appears to be a good compromise.
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Old February 13, 2020, 10:54 AM   #45
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I always thought that the appeal of flat-nosed bullets in handgun cartridges was that they were more likely to punch through barriers and bone than be deflected off in another direction.
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Old February 13, 2020, 02:18 PM   #46
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I give up - - if you can't see the relationship between the flat face of an expanded bullet and a flat meplat - I can't fathom what in the hell you are rambling on about.....
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Old February 13, 2020, 02:41 PM   #47
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hal:

The link wcm posted is in contradiction to his posts here and supportive of the position that larger meplat lead to greater terminal effect and straighter tracking through critter, even with non-rifle rounds. I agree, I think he is confused.

I'll bow out, too.
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