The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 31, 2020, 12:02 PM   #26
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 3,974
Well, yeah it had something to do with the Miami shootout. That shootout started a sort of panic within the FBI that led to some good results and better defensive ammo. But it wasn't just that one shot they looked at. They looked at their many years of shooting folks and how the bullets acted and where they hit. So they decided that they needed a bullet that could penetrate and expand 12-16" into a person (10% ballistic gel in their tests) even after passing through various barriers (auto windshields, drywall, heavy clothing, etc.) They also figured that over 18" was too much penetration.

They settled on those figures and requirements for their duty ammo knowing, based on experience, that often bullets travel at an angle into a body and they have to hit a vital organ to be effective. Someone may say that 12" will go right through most folks chests. But the bullet will hit at an angle at a fella crouched behind cover or concealment or crawling towards you.

It wasn't just the FBI that got involved in the debates and studies that went on during those years.

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Old January 31, 2020, 03:24 PM   #27
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,582
Here is a test done by poster 5pins using the Fiochhi ammo loaded with XTP bullets. In bare gel it did OK but add a barrier and its just like a FMJ round. To its credit the Fiocchi ammo is priced very reasonably. Around $16 IIRC.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...24#post6767424

If you look at the velocity from a Ruger LCP with 2.75" barrel the velocity is an average of 800fps. I don't think this round needs a reduced speed.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old January 31, 2020, 03:35 PM   #28
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,377
Overpenetration is greatly exaggerated IMHO. Jeff Cooper advocated the 45 ACP with FMJ, said it worked for him-"Why mess with trick bullets in a small bore ?" Conversely Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand and Countess Sophie Chotek would haves something to say about the effective of the 32ACP/380 FMJ bullet.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old January 31, 2020, 03:52 PM   #29
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS
Posts: 7,097
Quote:
Overpenetration is greatly exaggerated IMHO
I second this. I frequently carry a .380. No way in the world I'd want to go with a reduced-velocity round. Yes, I want expansion but I'm not going to sacrifice penetration for it.
Doyle is offline  
Old January 31, 2020, 03:59 PM   #30
amd6547
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2,212
I occasionally carry a Beretta 84F. When I do, it’s loaded with Underwood +P XTP.
No thanks OP, don’t want underperforming 380.
Really, our US, saami standard 380 underperforms already, compared to some European ammo I used to get.
__________________
The past is gone...the future may never happen.
Be Here Now.
amd6547 is offline  
Old January 31, 2020, 08:35 PM   #31
Carmady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Location: on the lam
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
No thanks OP, don’t want underperforming 380.
The initial premise was (assuming that .380 FMJ really does over penetrate all the time, as claimed on youtube) to simply slow them down a little, and maybe make them with a heavier bullet, to get a better performing, more reliable, and much less expensive defensive round than the high-dollar hyped up super duper HP ammo.

It seemed like a good idea at the time.
Carmady is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 01:05 PM   #32
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,008
Quote:
to simply slow them down a little, and maybe make them with a heavier bullet, to get a better performing, more reliable, and much less expensive defensive round than the high-dollar hyped up super duper HP ammo.
The flaw in this idea is the assumption that slowing down the bullet "a little" (how much is a little??) and upping the weight "a little" would result in a better performing, more reliable, and much less expensive round.

It does not.

Reducing the velocity reduces the energy, and the penetration, and increases the drop (though seldom a concern with the .380 round.

Also reducing the energy means there is less energy available to expand the bullet. Going to a heavier bullet means you will ALSO be reducing the velocity, and while you do gain a little bit from the momentum of the heavier slug I don't think it balances out, particularly in the .380.

why would you think a bullet that strikes with less energy, doesn't penetrate as much, and is unlikely to expand as much would be a "better performing, more reliable" round? As to less expensive? A slight reduction in the already small volume of powder in a .380 won't make the round significantly less expensive.

Knowing the way the market it, IF an ammo maker were to make "low penetration loads" they would probably charge MORE than standard ammo!
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 02:28 PM   #33
Carmady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Location: on the lam
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
Also reducing the energy means there is less energy available to expand the bullet.
The key part of the title is "FMJ." My idea was not to expand the FMJ, but to help to prevent it from over penetration (which is doesn't according to TFL) by reducing the velocity, and/or increasing the weight of the bullet .

Quote:
why would you think a bullet that strikes with less energy, doesn't penetrate as much, and is unlikely to expand as much would be a "better performing, more reliable" round?
Again, I was thinking of a FMJ that penetrates enough to be effective, but doesn't over penetrate (as claimed on youtube) and become a danger to innocent by-standers. "Sources I read" claim that FMJ's are typically more reliable than HP's when it comes to feeding. That's why I think a non-expanding FMJ would be more reliable and better performing than a HP which delivers iffy performance.

Quote:
A slight reduction in the already small volume of powder in a .380 won't make the round significantly less expensive.
I gave no consideration to the powder charge as a reduction in production/retail cost. I'm under the impression that the majority of HP SD ammo has a high price tag due to the hi-tech projectile. So, I drew the conclusion that a FMJ round would be less expensive to produce due the simplicity of the projectile alone.
Carmady is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 04:18 PM   #34
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,151
My SD handloads for .380ACP is a Nosler 115gr JHP that runs about 850FPS using PowerPistol. It's a heavier than standard bullet, traveling at a velocity lower than most factory 90 grainers. Doubt if it would expand much, but it sure is accurate. I am confident it will do the job as well as most boutique ammo, if I do my part. No .380 ammo is going to make up for poor shooting, and .380 ball will empty a pumping heart just as fast as a .380 JHP. Over penetration is not just after hitting the BG. Over penetration can be your kid's bedroom wall behind the BG you just missed.

Folks should use knowledge and experience to decide what works best for them for SD. They need to know the possible scenarios they will encounter and the mindset of the BGs they are protecting themselves from. Cops, SWAT teams and other LEOs scenarios are different than the average civilian SD shoot. We are preyed on by cowards wanting an easy victim. Most of them are going to scream and run in the other direction like a little girl, regardless of how ugly, or the approximate size of the hole that just appeared in their chest.

Folks need to use what they are confident in and what they are proficient with when it comes to their SD. It's their life they may be saving.

Last edited by buck460XVR; February 1, 2020 at 05:08 PM.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 09:21 PM   #35
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,008
Quote:
Again, I was thinking of a FMJ that penetrates enough to be effective, but doesn't over penetrate (as claimed on youtube) and become a danger to innocent by-standers. "Sources I read" claim that FMJ's are typically more reliable than HP's when it comes to feeding
OK, I understand your reasoning. Now, consider this,
There is no way to make a bullet that only goes "Far enough and no farther".

It is simply NOT POSSIBLE. You can make a load that is just perfect in situation A, but in B through Z it will either go too far, or worse, not go far enough!

Anyone who tell you other wise is either selling something (that won't work as claimed) or just outright lying, for the fun of it.

As far as FMJ being more reliable feeding than JHP, this is true in MACRO. When you look at all the different guns and all the different kinds of ammo, you will find fewer feeding failures with FMJ. OVERALL.

Any specific individual gun can feed either, or both equally flawlessly or flawed. The only way to be sure is to test SPECIFIC ammo in a SPECIFIC gun.

In a way its like saying, Looking at the over all fleet, Fords get better gas mileage than Chevys. (illustration only)

AVERAGES are just averages, and don't guarantee that the gun and ammo in your hands will be average, or something else.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 1, 2020, 09:27 PM   #36
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 7,886
Don't shoot at anyone surrounded by innocent bystanders.
Seriously, you shoot into a crowd and overpenetration is the concern?
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 04:37 AM   #37
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 8,354
Reduced velocity .380 FMJ for self-defense

P.T. Barnum was spot on.......
Hal is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 08:11 AM   #38
Carmady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Location: on the lam
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
P.T. Barnum was spot on.......
He sure was. Just wait until the marketing wizards introduce

SEASONAL SELF-DEFENSE AMMO

The winter ammo will be advertised as hotter to ensure top performance after passing through heavy clothing.

The summer ammo will be advertised as "optimized for light clothing" to reduce the dangers of over penetration.

But what they won't tell you is the ammo is all the same, just different boxes and different colored material stuffed in the hollow tips.

John Doe won't know, so he'll buy them both.

How many boxes can I put you down for?
Carmady is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 08:46 AM   #39
Laz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 1999
Posts: 1,261
People are giving the OP a bit of a hard time about calling for reduced power .380, however in many ways that is what we have today with the popularity of 2.75 inch-barreled pocket pistols compared to the 3.25-3.75 inch fixed barreled blowback .380s that were the norm in the past. If there was ever an over-penetration issue with .380, it has likely been mitigated by today’s short barrel reduction in velocity.
__________________
Laz

I’m just a nobody, trying to tell everybody, about Somebody, who can save anybody.
Laz is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 12:27 PM   #40
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,208
Quote:
Reducing the velocity reduces the energy, and the penetration, and increases the drop (though seldom a concern with the .380 round.
Just to clarify the math a bit, the premise was to go with a heavier bullet at a reduced velocity. You can actually get more energy from a heavier bullet at a slower velocity than a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. For example, a 90 gr bullet at 975 fps will yield 190 ft lbs versus a 100 gr. bullet at 950 fps that will yield 200 ft lbs.

So reducing the velocity does not necessarily mean that there will be a reduction in energy.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 01:12 PM   #41
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,008
Quote:
So reducing the velocity does not necessarily mean that there will be a reduction in energy.
Indeed that is the way math works.

on the other hand a measurable difference is NOT always a significant difference.

10gr bullet weight, 25fps velocity =10ft/lbs difference...measurable but piffle in real world terms.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 01:37 PM   #42
Crankylove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: Tooele, Ut
Posts: 1,588
Pretty sure reduced power .380 has been around since 1899, most people just call it the .32 ACP.
__________________
The answer to 1984 is 1776
Crankylove is offline  
Old February 3, 2020, 01:45 PM   #43
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankylove View Post
Pretty sure reduced power .380 has been around since 1899, most people just call it the .32 ACP.
__________________
I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old February 3, 2020, 05:32 PM   #44
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,582
One other thing with a reduced power load I don't think anyone has mention is that by lowering the powder charge you may start having function issues with your gun.

The autos are designed to operate at a certain range of power. Reducing or increasing the powder charge can either damaged the gun from too much slide speed or not function the slide. You would have to respring the gun to match your reduced load.
__________________
"Those who cannot cleanly dispatch their game using a .30-30 are either shooting too far, hunting inappropriate (too large) game, or are simply incompetent." Mic McPherson

I can understand your anger at me, but what could you possibly have against the horse I rode in on?
ratshooter is offline  
Old February 4, 2020, 12:11 PM   #45
jfruser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 296
Not going to give the OP a hard time, but .380ACP has rarely been accused of having a surplus of KE, momentum, etc.

And most/many gel tests indicate that JHP variants don't have what it takes to both expand and go 12-16" deep.

For my own part, I am partial to flat note/truncated cone bullet shapes for SD in these low powered rounds.

Quote:
Pretty sure reduced power .380 has been around since 1899, most people just call it the .32 ACP.
Yeah, gigglesnorting a chewed up bit of almond up into my nasal cavity...quite incapacitating.

Anyways, going .32ACP is my solution.
__________________
Regards, jfruser
"We have now sunk to a depth at which re-statement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."----George Orwell
jfruser is offline  
Old February 4, 2020, 05:54 PM   #46
Carmady
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Location: on the lam
Posts: 1,407
Back in the mid-90s one of my sons and I were looking at a gun mag or a manufacturer's catalog, and there was a .32 that was advertised something like, "...and has .380 stopping power with the right ammunition." We had a good laugh over that, and the times they are a-changin'.
Carmady is offline  
Old February 5, 2020, 02:36 PM   #47
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmady View Post
Back in the mid-90s one of my sons and I were looking at a gun mag or a manufacturer's catalog, and there was a .32 that was advertised something like, "...and has .380 stopping power with the right ammunition." We had a good laugh over that, and the times they are a-changin'.




__________________
I'm not inclined to disarm for a concert, game, (entertainment) and I ain't going on a plane or cruise.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old February 5, 2020, 10:11 PM   #48
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,208
Quote:
Indeed that is the way math works.

on the other hand a measurable difference is NOT always a significant difference.

10gr bullet weight, 25fps velocity =10ft/lbs difference...measurable but piffle in real world terms.
Yes, that is how the math does work. One must not assume that just because the velocity has been reduced that the energy is reduced unless one also controls for the weight of the projectile. In the .380, it may not be that big of a factor given the limited range of projectile options available, a piffle as you say, but a piffle is still enough to make the point.

However, in other calibers, the difference can be significant for those people who chase energy numbers. For example, chronographed from my 18" Grendel rifle, I get 2740 fps and 1501 ft lbs of energy from a Nosler Varmageddon 95 gr. bullet. From the same rifle, I get 2518 fps and 1690 ft lbs of energy from a 120 gr. Speer Gold Dot bullet. So with 92% of the velocity, I am getting 13% increase in energy. 189 ft lbs is hardy a piffle. In fact, it is virtually the same amount as a solitary .380 90 gr round fired at 975 fps.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 6, 2020, 11:57 AM   #49
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 21,008
Quote:
189 ft lbs is hardy a piffle. In fact, it is virtually the same amount as a solitary .380 90 gr round fired at 975 fps.
Perhaps not a piffle, but in some situations, tis a cat sneeze, and others significant force. All depends on context. Shooting small caliber pistols a couple hundred ft/lbs seem (and is) pretty significant. Shooting a .458Win Mag, not so much.

Energy and velocity numbers are the altars many pray to, and math is the dogma they chant. But the numbers alone do not tell it all.

One can, for example, load a .22-250 and a .45-70 to identical energy levels, this is a good example of velocity vs mass. Both are excellent at their intended uses. Neither is ideal for the other's best work, yet ENERGY is identical.

Energy is an important factor, but energy should not be taken alone, other factory are also important, and in some situations more important, but most important is the proper combination of factors.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 6, 2020, 05:11 PM   #50
badge851
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2005
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmady
SEASONAL SELF-DEFENSE AMMO

The winter ammo will be advertised as hotter to ensure top performance after passing through heavy clothing.

The summer ammo will be advertised as "optimized for light clothing" to reduce the dangers of over penetration.

But what they won't tell you is the ammo is all the same, just different boxes and different colored material stuffed in the hollow tips.

John Doe won't know, so he'll buy them both.

How many boxes can I put you down for?
Hornady® does this...
• Custom® 380 Auto 90gr XTP® @ $24.99

• American Gunner™ 380 Auto 90gr XTP® @ $16.99

They are the same load! Guess which type I will buy?


__________________
Only two defining forces have ever died for you:
1. Jesus Christ.
2. The American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, & Marine.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
badge851 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10599 seconds with 8 queries