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View Poll Results: Would you shoot?
Yes, without a doubt. That's why I carry. 51 62.20%
No, my CCW is only for my and my family's safety. 9 10.98%
I would intervene physically, but not with my gun. 11 13.41%
I don't go into places I cannot legally carry with my gun. 11 13.41%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 26, 2005, 01:59 PM   #1
XavierBreath
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Would you shoot?

In this thread, a shooter who is indeed a hero used his concealed gun to stop a stabbing and save a woman's life. Unfortunately, in so doing, he commited a fourth degree felony just for having his gun on the premises.

In this situation, if you were seeing a stranger viciously attacked, and were carrying in an area where the mere prescence of your weapon could mean that you could not only no longer carry, but no longer OWN a gun, would you intervene?
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:02 PM   #2
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Of course.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:07 PM   #3
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Don't know, never been in that situation. I'll let you know what happens, if I ever am.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:14 PM   #4
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Now that I have the poll up, I'll post my answer... Realistically, I believe I would. I think that in the emotionally charged horror of the moment I will not think legalities, but will simply act. My act of response is to draw the gun, not to check to see if it's OK.

Whether that is the wise thing to do, I do not know........ With this incident occuring in the Wal-Mart, a quick swipe across the head with a handy off the rack tire iron or any other improvised weapon might be the way to go. Of course, post incident you will still be detained by the police, and will submit to a search, so you end up with the same result.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:17 PM   #5
Para Bellum
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Mhm. Strange. As far as I know this question wouldn't be possible in my country (Austria). The only place where you can't carry with a permit is at court. And even there you'd only be finded - if at all - if you did what the origininal post describes.

At what places is it illegal to carry, although you have a permit (?!), in your states?
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:27 PM   #6
XavierBreath
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Quote:
At what places is it illegal to carry, although you have a permit (?!), in your states?
It varies from state to state Para. Courts and jails are always included, some states include places that sell liquor for consumption on the premises, others where you can buy but not consume liquor. Some say churches and other places of worship. Some say sporting events. Some say Tribal land. Some states say a property owner can/must post their property against carry in a certain way with multiple languages. Other states simply say private property, or in my state, a private residence.

In Louisiana, my state, says you cannot carry in a parade. It is debatable if you can carry AT a parade as a spectator. This is no doubt a Mardi Gras law, but it extends across the state. It is going to have a challenge in court at some time.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:37 PM   #7
butch50
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Quote:
Vigil was shot to death by 72-year old Due Moore. Police won't say how many shots were fired, but some witnesses tell News 13 they heard at least three shots.

Police say Moore had a concealed carry license and is a well-known volunteer with APD's cold case unit.

“It’s probably a very good thing he (Moore) was there,” says APD Sgt. Trish Hoffman. “Ms. Cordova may not be here today if it had not been for him.”

Police say there was a valid restraining order in place against the victim's ex-husband.

Police say Moore has been very cooperative and has not been charged with any crime.

A valid use of a personal handgun. At 72 he probably wasn't able to effectively save her any other way.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:40 PM   #8
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That's the NM Wal-Mart incident Butch?!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:42 PM   #9
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Without hesitation, I would hope that the doctrine of competing harms would prevent my prosecution on any gun-related charges. If not, so be it - I couldn't live with myself knowing I had the ability to save another from certain harm and I failed to act. In fact, it would be cowardly to do otherwise.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:43 PM   #10
butch50
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Indeed! The NM incident looks like it will be no charges for the shooting.

Want to hear something really sexist? My answer above "of course" applies only to a man attacking a woman or a child.

If it was a woman attacking a man, or a man attacking a man, my answer changes to "depends on a host of circumstances, so maybe, maybe not"
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:49 PM   #11
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As per my post in the earlier thread, this is not a problem in Texas. If lethal force is justified, you won't be prosecuted for having the means necessary.
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Old August 26, 2005, 02:59 PM   #12
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The way I see the scene in my head (which is almost ALWAYS inaccurate), it would have been a nice time to have a can of good pepper spray. Not that the guy didn't deserve a hollow point, but if (IF!!) a person could get up behind him and empty the can into his face, I see that as a good option. Not even close to the legal troubles of shooting the guy to death.

Again, I wasn't there and don't want to speculate. In my book, the guy sounds like a hero and should be given a new lamp or something from Walmart.
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Old August 26, 2005, 03:20 PM   #13
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"Would you shoot"

Again and again.
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Old August 26, 2005, 03:28 PM   #14
danco
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First off, I don't patronize businesses that prohibit me from exercising my rights...(BTW, in Nevada, carry in Wal*Mart is legal; if Wal*Mart doesn't like guns and posts a sign saying "No Guns," all they can do is charge me with trespass if I refuse to leave...)

Second, I work in an industry (licensed professional engineer) where a felony conviction for anything, whether you're "doing the right thing" or not, will cost you your license and your ability to earn a living. That to me is more important than the firearm ownership aspects of a felony conviction.

If I'm (illegally) carrying where I'm not supposed to, my weapon will be for protection of my family or me, only. If your a third party being attacked, I'll happily phone 911 for you, summon Wal*Mart security for you, and carefully observe so that I can be a good witness for you.

Sorry if it doesn't sound macho, but it's not my responsibility to play policeman.

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Old August 26, 2005, 03:36 PM   #15
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I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the pepper spray idea.

The woman had already been stabbed (I have to assume that the perp stopped stabbing her once shot, and she had to go to the hospital, hence being stabbed before shooting occurred).

To stab someone, you have to be pretty close to them, and I wouldn't trust pepper spray to be accurate in that type of a situation unless I was fairly close. Being fairly close to someone with a knife who is obviously willing to use it is not a place I'd like to be without a loaded gun in hand.

If you miss with the spray, or he sees you before you deploy it, or if it has no or not enough effect on him, I'd bet it wouldn't take long for the perp to close the distance to you. I'm guessing that you would not have time to draw, aim, and fire before you have a knife in your belly, or worse.

Also, in my opinion, aside from the practicality, I think that pepper spray is a fundamentally wrong response to someone that is actively KILLING another person. I would feel justified in using deadly force if I saw someone threatening a victim with a knife. Someone who holds a knife to someone isn't playing around, and a knife is a very very deadly weapon even in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to be 'lethal' with it.

Just my 2c. Hopefully none of us ever find ourselves in a situation such as this.

-B6
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Old August 26, 2005, 03:59 PM   #16
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Yes, in a heartbeat!
To my knowledge, Walmart is not posted restricting weapons, so I would be violating the law by carrying there.
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Old August 26, 2005, 04:09 PM   #17
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I voted yes, though I don't carry(yet).

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to think that in such a situation I'd worry about doing what's RIGHT. After that, I'll pray to any and all gods that those more powerful than myself (i.e. lawyers, judges and juries) would understand why I acted.
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Old August 26, 2005, 04:45 PM   #18
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I'm interested in how this story turns out. NM has concealed carry, so he may have been carrying legally. So far the only news I've heard is that a somebody shot a guy with a knife.

I couldn't answer your survey question. Would I intercede if carrying illegally?

I would ... but only if I were 1,000% certain of who the players were. i.e. A crazed guy with a knife stabbing at a mother trying to protect her infant child. Yup -- definitely intercede. With gun if necessary (and with a knife involved definitely).

If it is several 20 somethings that look like they might be gang related and one is getting stabbed -- just don't know the story enough to commit my own safety and future. I would get my family away while calling 911 on my cell phone.
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Old August 26, 2005, 04:59 PM   #19
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I'd shoot, but I'm also an LEO, and as such, have a little more latitude for carrying.
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Old August 26, 2005, 05:21 PM   #20
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I didn't vote b/c none of the choices bullseyed my thoughts on the subject. I would probably shoot him but would have to be there to say conclusivly.

Is there a tire iron handy or plastic toys? Crowded? Kids? Apparent viciousness and demeanor of attacker? A host of variables which could be answered with a glance, yet not on the internet.

We can reasonable assume that the attacker was no knife expert or she'd be dead. May just have time to pick up a TV and bash him in the head with it without shots fired. Saving her is saving her but if it can be done without shots fired, all the more prudent yes?

I agree that pepperspray vs knife is dumb.

I like to mind my own business, but couldn't just turn my back and walk away. A public heated argument between a couple or even a slap or two is to be MYOB but the presence of a knife raises the ante, as well as demonstrated viciousness in hand to hand, so intervention would be called for. Again, these variables could be decided upon in an instant if I was there to see for myself.

I hope the guy gets his sidearm back. Anybody know the hit ratio? Any misses? 3 shots IIRC...
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Old August 26, 2005, 05:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
We can reasonable assume that the attacker was no knife expert or she'd be dead. May just have time to pick up a TV and bash him in the head with it without shots fired. Saving her is saving her but if it can be done without shots fired, all the more prudent yes?
I could be wrong, but I think most states would consider hitting somebody over the head with a TV to be deadly force. You might as well just shoot him... same amount of legal hassle and you don't have to pay for a TV set.
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Old August 26, 2005, 05:52 PM   #22
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I would probably shoot him consequences be damned, but if I had a moment to think I would try to use something else like hiting him with a shopping cart. I would love to help if I can but I have no wish to go to prison.
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Old August 26, 2005, 06:08 PM   #23
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Knife = deadly force. TV also granted. The difference being the variable of the non combatents. Collateral damage to innocents is a possibility so a tv may well be a more prudent action than shots fired. Exigent (?) circumstances may well call for shots but if you can end it without shots fired (and the roulette wheel of firing shots in the store) so much the better.

Was his backdrop into the shopping area or an outside wall? Too many unknown variables. What if you hit the perp twice and stopped him but your 3rd round missed and nailed an innocent shopper? TV's are cheaper than lawyers!
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Old August 26, 2005, 07:53 PM   #24
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I voted to shoot the slug, . . . being 60 and in less than perfect health. There is no time when it is justifiable for one person to take a knife to another. My hat's off the the gentleman in NM who protected the woman.

I also, though, . . . would probably not have been in that Wally World if the signs were posted. WM's in Ohio are not posted.

It is one of the few places where I have one eye on what I am buying, . . . and the other on who & what is going on around me.

May God bless,
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Old August 26, 2005, 08:47 PM   #25
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With my snubbie, I would have an equal chance of shooting the victim as the assailant.

At a distance, I believe I would yell at the perp to stop. If he didn't, I would be compelled to fire a *gasp* warning shot to let him know he might eat a bullet. If that didn't work, or if I were closer, the next step would be to separate the perp from the victim via kick to the face, punches to the face, or whatever means. I would expect to receive a potentially nasty cut to my arm or elsewhere in the process.

Once I was sure my bullet would strike him and not the victim or anyone else, my snubbie would be on the perp. Anything other than retreat by the perp at this point would result in a shooting.

Crappy position to be in, no doubt.

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