Webley Revolver evolution

[4V50 Gary]

Blackpowder and cowboy Duelist's/Mike Beliveau (sp) latest video is about the Webley revolver. 26 min long.

https://youtu.be/ZTYRgMuLy7g?si=iSrxEAMjmv_DPlv3

I'm glad he mentioned that the MK I & II took the lower pressure black powder bullets and starting with the Mk III smokeless was used. Know you Marks. If yours was modified for 45 ACP, handload with less powder. Load them to Webley pressure stds.

[Webleymkv]

For owners of shaved Webleys that don't reload, Steinel Ammo now offers .45 ACP ammo loaded to .455 Webleys pressure

https://steinelammo.com/product-cate...mo/455-webley/

[FrankenMauser]

If you want to return a shaved Webley .45 to use proper (not dangerous) ammo, there is a seller that offers shim kits that can be installed with low-temp solder.
His email is beourdhead at some filler words here for bots gmail.com


As for the Webley history, I suggest C&Rsenal on YouTube - or find them at candrsenal.com or oldgunshow.com.
C&Rsenal does a much deeper dive than anyone else. All other channels do a surface-level skim, and run with it. But C&Rsenal digs for first party reporting, original research, official documents, etc. About 25% of the time, they turn up new information, that turns the status quo on its head.

[4V50 Gary]

FrankenMauser - restoration is the way to go. Thanks for that tip and also for the tip on C&R. Never knew of them (Duelist shows up b/c of my interest in BP and he posts on this forum).

[44 AMP]

If you want to return a shaved Webley .45 to use proper (not dangerous) ammo, there is a seller that offers shim kits that can be installed with low-temp solder.

Some years back I spoke with a fellow who would shim the Webley cylinder, as I recall, he attached the shim with small screws. I never had it done, and have long since forgotten the fellow's name, sorry.

Something to be aware of, not all shaved Webleys were shaved the same amount. Any shim will have to be fitted to the specific gun, and unless a "kit" comes with several different thicknesses, its not a DIY project, and personally even if it did have different thickesses of shims, I would have a professional do the work.

I have a Mk VI, 1917 date, and it has just barely been shaved. It will fire .455 ammo, but not reliably. It will not work with .45AR brass, nor will it work with any full moon clip I have tried, they are just too thick. It works fine with the half moon clips I have (was told they are S&W) and it works with the 2 rnd clips I found at a gun show.

I do handload, and its no problem for me to make Webley pressure ammo using .45ACP brass.

[4V50 Gary]

Good point 44AMP. If I had to restore one, I would make a steel ring (outer diameter and diameter of the star extractor) of the right diameter and use hi-force, low temp solder to attach. Then I'd turn it down (shorten) it on a lathe to get the correct length. Then it would need bluing.

[Webleymkv]

44 AMP, for a "barely shaved" Webley like yours, I wonder if handloading with shortened .45 Long Colt or .45 Schofield brass or perhaps using the .45 "Cowboy Special" brass offered by Starline might be a workable solution. .455 Webley has a very thin rim even when compared to other conventionally rimmed cartridges like .45 LC. Since .45 LC, .45 Schofield, and .45 "Cowboy Special" all have rims thicker than .455 Webley but thinner than .45 AR, they might work in your revolver and remove the necessity of using moon clips.

[FrankenMauser]

Good point 44AMP. If I had to restore one, I would make a steel ring (outer diameter and diameter of the star extractor) of the right diameter and use hi-force, low temp solder to attach. Then I'd turn it down (shorten) it on a lathe to get the correct length. Then it would need bluing.

His kits are spring steel, designed to be installed with low-temp solder.
Two difference center diameters, to allow for differences in milling; but not different thicknesses.

[44 AMP]

they might work in your revolver and remove the necessity of using moon clips.

I did look into that, got a half dozen Schofield cases, test fitting looked like they should work if shortened, but life got in my way and I never did shorten them to see for sure.

I don't mind needing half moon clips for that revolver, its a 1917, and an occasional recreational shooter, not a duty gun. Don't know if it actually "went over the top" in the first war or what it did in the second, but other than being just barely shaved its in great shape, even the finish is only slightly worn, considering its age. Its not police marked in any way, just the usual proofs.

It calls to my mind images of Alan Quartermain, and that era of (fictional?) adventure.

[RickB]

Schofield cases are definitely too thick to work in an unshaved gun.
I'd hoped to use trimmed Schofield brass in my Mk. I, but it won't close.
Schofield cases would be perfect for my RIC, if it were a complete, functional gun.

[Mike Irwin]

"I'd hoped to use trimmed Schofield brass in my Mk. I, but it won't close."

You have a Webley Mk I that was shaved?

That's frightening as hell.

It's a miracle that it has survived. A standard pressure .45 ACP run through either a Mk I or Mk II should essentially destroy either one.

Few Mk IIIs are round as few were made/issued as they apparently still weren't quite strong enough for the new cordite rounds.

The Mk IV is the first one that should be able to hopefully survived a .45 ACP round without being badly damaged.

[4V50 Gary]

Glad you're here Mike. You were the first to alert me to the danger about using smokeless in the MK II. BTW, it's never been fired by me.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

"I'd hoped to use trimmed Schofield brass in my Mk. I, but it won't close."

You have a Webley Mk I that was shaved?

That's frightening as hell.

It's a miracle that it has survived. A standard pressure .45 ACP run through either a Mk I or Mk II should essentially destroy either one.

Few Mk IIIs are round as few were made/issued as they apparently still weren't quite strong enough for the new cordite rounds.

The Mk IV is the first one that should be able to hopefully survived a .45 ACP round without being badly damaged.

Am another owner of a Mark I (Navy model) with shaved cylinder. Am gonna guess these were earlier imports. Actually shot it once with light lead loads.

[Mike Irwin]

"Actually shot it once with light lead loads."

Yikes!

When the British switched to cordite in... 1897 or so... they quickly found that the new powder, even at the same relative pressure levels as black powder, quickly wrecked the Mk I and II guns.

The quality of the steel and overall strength of construction could take the pressure curve generated by black powder, but not the dramatically different pressure curve put out by smokeless powder.

That led to development of the Mk III, quickly followed by the Mk IV, which ironed out some lingering construction issues and finally gave the British a revolver full capable of using the new smokeless powder.

[44 AMP]

All of the .45 Webleys Mk III or earlier should only be fired with black powder. Mk IV, V, and VI are ok for smokeless, in their pressure range.

The newest Mk VIs are about a century old now, so prudence should be the order of the day.

[Jim Watson]

There was a short story in Gun Digest, 'The Greatest of all Webley Collectors', now available for Kindle
https://www.amazon.com/Greatest-All-.../dp/B082GD4VY2

A German spy had gotten employment at W&S. Instead of arresting him, Intelligence flooded him with disinformation in the form of wild variations of Webley revolvers.

[RickB]

"I'd hoped to use trimmed Schofield brass in my Mk. I, but it won't close."

You have a Webley Mk I that was shaved?

No, it's not shaved, that's why I was looking for useable brass; actually, don't think it would even need to be trimmed, as the 1880s .455 case was quite a bit longer than the WWI-era case.

[RickB]

Am another owner of a Mark I (Navy model) with shaved cylinder. Am gonna guess these were earlier imports. Actually shot it once with light lead loads.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0833.jpg (92.8 KB, 10 views)

A ringer for mine, other than yours being shaved.

[zeke]

Originally Posted by RickB

No, it's not shaved, that's why I was looking for useable brass; actually, don't think it would even need to be trimmed, as the 1880s .455 case was quite a bit longer than the WWI-era case.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/455-webley-mkii

Have used Mark II brass in an unshaved Mark VI.

Nice looking Mark I. Somewhere still have some Hdy 260 lnhb swaged bullets that were specifically made for the Webley's. The bearing surface is minimized, and the hollow base encourages engaging the rifling after going through the smaller dia cylinder. throats.

p.s. believe we last discussed these bout 14 yrs ago on 1911 forum?

[Mike Irwin]

The original .455 cartridge, the Mk I, had an overall case length of just under 22mm.

The .45 Schofield case has an overall case length of 27mm.

I doubt that untrimmed Schofield cases would work.

[44 AMP]

Just fyi, my calculator says .898" (the length of a .45ACP is 22.8mm, which is why the shaved conversion works, I think.

[rock185]

I've enjoyed this informative discussion. Always thought the Webleys were interesting old revolvers. I'd only shot one of the MKVI types with an old pal years ago. Later, I bought it from my old friend's estate. It was shaved, and I've reloaded light ammo for it for several years. Good old revolver that functions properly and will actually stay on the target at 15 yards.

Just a comment on the factory Fiocchi .455 ammo. I bought one of the spacer rings/shims that allows for the use of regular .455 ammo. The Fiocchi averaged only 554 FPS in my MKVI. So I can see how it might have produced squibs in the video gentleman's revolver; very lightly loaded stuff..