Loading for 223 REM process check

[Bentnail]

So i have purchased my dies for 223, the ultimate set from Lee. I picked up a Classic Turret press for doing rifle so I can interchange the rotary 4 hole out so I can do 308 later. But i have been reading alot on this forum and others for SOO (Sequence Of Operation). Also did some reading and now i kinda of understand bullet jump and what that is, but dont see anyone on the forums that apply that to their reloading of the rounds.

So my SOO would be based on each manufacturer of bullet that I will use. Currently I am setting up for 69gr sierra bullets in .224. So I am going to OAL my Ruger American Standard Gen 2 bolt to see what the length is to put the bullet at the edge of the rifling. So to try and rid myself of the bullet jump as much as possible. Once that is established for the entire length then onto brass.

SOO for 223/308 brass.
I have been depriming by hand each cartridge and then once I have a tub full wash in tumbler with dawn and lemmieshine. Air dry and inspect and sort. Sort MIL crimps to a tub of their own and standard 223 to their own.

Then I was going to lube the cases up using a dry silicone spray someone recommended on here. Doing lots of 50 or 100 cases at a time.

Then full length those cases.

Then collet those same cases.

Trim based on any overage of length greater than the 1.740 inches. I know that the specs say no longer than 1.76 but there is a -.020 so using 1.740 inches.

After trimming i will still go thru and prep the prime pockets. I plan on using a lymans case prep machine for the pockets, esp the crimp ones. I am not sure if the swage die by Lee would work better or not. My understanding with it you are compressing the crimp out of the way, but not clearing it totally. or am I understanding that wrong. I am not sold on that, as not many do and some do.

After trimming and debur and primer pockets prepped, i will wash again.

The next steps will be either on the turret press except for priming I will hand prime each load, and powder drop each case individually. I only plan on 10 rounds at a time till have established a load I like.

Seat bullet to length

Light crimp each

check again on length and plink test.

Then off to range for chronograph to verify shots.


So have I missed anything? Any recommendations? I am more worried about case prepping that the reloading of the primer, powder, bullet seating and light crimp. I know everyone does everything different, so I know i will hear different ways, but what is best to do this?

Thank you all for those chime in.....Merry Christmas

[Shadow9mm]

Bullet jump is voodoo, dont buy into it. Your lands erode over time as you shoot, your trying to measure a constantly moving point, its folly.

Your wet tumbling so
1, deprime
2, wet tumble
3, resize
4, trim (check your manual usually 0.010 below max)
5, deburr case mouth
6, uncrimp primer pocket if needed.

For loading I work start to max look for pressure signs. Then i work back down looking for good es/sd. After that i tune seating depth. I start at the COL listed in the manual and seat deeper in 0.003 increments, 5 to 7 max.

The idea of seating depth tuning is more to match the barrels harmonics. The barrel whips and moves when the gun fires, kind of like a pendulum. The goal is, using the same powder charge, but changing the distance it takes to leave the muzzle, to adjust how far and how long it takes the bullet to leave the barrel, and to get it to exit at the top or bottom of the cycle rather than in the middle where the barrel is moving more.

I wasted a lot of time, bullets, powder, and frustration trying to measure off the lands and make it work.

Heres a video from a pro shooter that explains it better.
https://youtu.be/oRXlCG9YZbQ?si=ffwoToYW7uXw-qcR

Also, i would not bother with crimp unless your loading for a semi auto. You can if it makes you feel better, but in my experience my most accurate loads are not crimped.

[Bentnail]

Thank you for the information. So calculating the bullet jump is more of an idea than reality.

I am shooting Bolt action rifle, so no need to crimp I am ok for that too.

So one thing I am little cornfused about is whether full length and collet or only do one or the other....

[Shadow9mm]

Full length size only. Collet sizing is neck sizing, it only resizes the neck, it does not push the shoulder back. It was popular for a long time, but not a lot of shooters do it these days. You run into issues with the brass being so tightly fitted , fire formed, into the chamber that debri, or just moderate fouling buildup, could be enough to keep a round from chambering. And you still need to full length size every 3 firings or so anyways. Most competition shooters only full length.

There are a lot of rabbit trails to chase loading for rifle. Start simple and addresses problems as them come. In my experience trying to fix things before they are broken always causes problems.

Work a load up, make sure its safe, make sure your velocity is reasonably consistent, see how it shoots. If need be tune seating depth a little to tighten things up. I have cut group sizes in half adjusting seating depth in 0.003 increments, and have gone from 1.5moa to 0.68moa and back to 1.5moa within 0.021 total.

Oh, when resizing your brass, hold it up in there for a good second or so, a one one thousand. I had problems early on, with inconsistent ammo. What i found was that brass has some spring to it and if i ran it through the sizer too fast the shoulders were springing back a bit. Since thats what the case headspaces on it can effect accuracy and consistency. Holdiit up in the die lets it settle a bit and gives a much more consistent shoulder distance.


Couple more vids from Erik on neck sizing
https://youtu.be/lLG2kSrD40g?si=aoA27EtoK0Ph76T3

https://youtu.be/vaqg4sJvg24?si=z5GrIgyUrvxL0KZ2

[totaldla]

Best to full-length resize. I don't think neck sizing is worth it.

[Unclenick]

Bentnail,

Welcome to the forum.

You didn't say what kind of gun you are using. If it is a self-loader, like an AR or a Mini-14, you need to resize to make the head-to-shoulder distance at least 0.002" shorter than it was as measured on an ejected case. Some individual guns need a little more. If you want to use the Lee Collet Die by itself, it is really just for bolt action and single-shot rifles. This is a form of neck sizing-sizing-only, and works best for milder loads that don't tighten the case up too quickly. However, where the Lee Collet Die shines is when it is used in conjunction with a Redding Body Die or a full length bushing die with the bushing removed. This is because the Lee Collet Die sizes the neck without overresizing it, so the neck lasts longer, and because it sizes without having to expand the neck afterwards, an action that commonly pulls necks off-axis. So you resize the case body in the Redding Body Die or the bushingless bushing die, then do the neck in the Lee Collet Die, and you wind up with very coaxial case profiles, which aids accuracy.

As far as bullet jump goes, it has both been touted as a way to tune cartridges (see Berger technical notes on making VLDs shoot) and knocked down as an illusion created by information gathered from data with too few shots involved. The latter produces better and worse groups randomly, which shooters tend to see as the small group refecting what their gun is capable of, and the larger groups being caused by shooter error. In other words, their conclusions are really an example of bias confirmation.

That said, it is also the case that if you move a bullet seating depth much with the same load, it changes pressure and velocity and bullet barrel time a bit, so it's not always incapable of affecting group size. It is just that you have to use a statistically significant group size, like 30 rounds, to prove a real improvement, whereas most 30-round comparison groups wind up disproving what was thought to be a discovered group size improvement.

A final note about bullet distance off the lands: For most common pointed bullet shapes, seating a bullet out to be closer to the throat than about 0.030" will raise pressure. In a rifle, it goes up by about 20% when the bullet makes contact with the lands, so be aware of that.

[mikejonestkd]

IMO neck sizing only makes sense in rifles with oversized chambers that stress brass excessively. < Looks sideways at my Lee enfields...>

as others mentioned, full length sizing is preferred

[Bentnail]

Uncle Nick...thank you for the welcome. I am shooting bolt action. I have an ar15 and lr308, and truthfully impressed with the engineering of the rifles and how they operate and I marvel at the tech and hold old it is and when they originally engineered it...but not a fan of them. I don't have a high end bolt action, I am using a Ruger American standard gen 2 in 223 and looking for a 308 also.

I am starting to load for the bolt in 223 on my Lee classic turret. So in reading Lee ultimate dies for 223 they are recommending collet. But being a fair amount of my brass was shot either in bolt or picked up at range, I am figuring that I need full length it. No crimp since all will be shot from bolt.
So my next question is when I did my wash I sorted 556 brass out of the 223 brass. So the 556 drass I need to get the crimp out of the pockets. I was planning on using a lymans prep system, but also know of the Lee swage. Does it matter which, I am concerned about the swage just presses the crimp in but does it remove it and being it pressing it in the wouldn't that deform the primer pocket?

[44 AMP]

Understand that there is a difference between swaging the crimp and uniforming the primer pocket. There are tools made to do both, or either.

I don't swage the crimp (used to, quit bothering decades ago) I just cut it out with a couple twists of the nose of my chamfering tool. Doin a lot at once is a pain, hands cramp a bit, but simply doing smaller batches at one time fixes that, and its something you only need to do once per case,

Keep your GI brass separate from commercial brass, they can have a different powder capacity, and often do.

Bullet jump to the lands?? OK, how much?? This is something that can be different for every barrel, Only testing with your rifle and ammo will tell you what seating depth delivers the best accuracy. And the load that does best in your bolt gun may shoot less well in a different gun, or be the same, or possibly even better, Every barrel seems to be a law unto itself about that. You can assume general trends will be followed, but the precise results you get can only be determined by shooting.

[NWPilgrim]

Removing the primer crimp is really about removing the choke point at the shoulder the primer pocket. Neither method should change the field ion of the walls of the primer pocket.

Swaging will force a slightly tapered pin into the pocket that will put a radius to the picket opening (shoulders). Chamfering will cut a bevel into the shoulders. Both methods just make it easier to get a primer started into the pocket.

As others have suggested, start simple and as you shout and process you may find things you want to change. But a warning: there is much written about tuning steps that are questionable as to having an affect or are only noticeable to the most experienced shooters with very expensive bench rest rifles.

You are shooting recreationally so don’t sweat some of the finer things like sorting brass or bullets by weight, bullet seating concentricity, even seating depth is minor. The major factors for accuracy or consistency of components (buy as big batch as you can of the same lot brass, bullets, and powder); barrel quality, bullet quality, powder that works well with your barrel and bullet.

The 69 gr BTHP is a superb choice of bullet. The easiest bullet to get consistent accuracy in my experience with several barrels of different makes and lengths. H335 and Varget near max loads are fantastic. Start a couple of grains below max and load up 5-10 cartridges for every charge weight stepping up in .3-.4gr increments.

Be realistic about what you can expect for the barrel and components you have. If you don’t have a target grade barrel then 10-shot groups under 2” is good or 5-shots in 1.5”. That is plenty good for hunting, defense, or hitting steel out to 400-500 yds (unless you are shooting prairie dogs).

As you shoot more and more and develop good technique you may want to get a lighter, crisper trigger. Maybe a better scope. A good forearm rest or bipod. A rear bag. Honestly you should easily have a lot of fun with the 69 gr bullets.

My routine shooting AR15s.
- Universal de-capping die
- Wet tumble
- Sort by under/over my trim length
- put 30 cases or so in a baggie and spray a couple of squirts of lanolin/alcohol lube (home brew similar to Dillon), shake up well
- full length size
- trim the over-length cases (I use Worlds Finest Trimmer for .223 but many methods available)
- Chamfer and debur trimmed case mouths
- Run through dry tumbler with corn cob media to remove lube
- Sort by headstamp and whether primer pockets need swaging
- Swage primer pockets ( I use Dillon Super Swager)
- Off press priming using Lee Bench Prime
- charge cases using powder measure and balance scale
- Seat bullet
- Taper crimp if using a cannelure. I’ve never had an issue with an AR15 using bullets NOT crimped

You will want to get a bullet puller like the Hornady or RCBS cam die type eventually.

[jetinteriorguy]

The biggest limit to your OAL is that the ammo fits in the magazine. A good starting point as a generalization is find the max OAL that fits the mag,then seat another .020” for a little headroom. If you want to fool with seating depths then just start at this point and gradually seat shorter in whatever increments you choose. I too have gone down that rabbit hole and guess what I discovered, on my very best day with the perfect setup I could shoot 1/4 MOA, but in general all around loading and shooting have come to discover that I can reliably shoot MOA and am pretty happy with that.

[Rimfire5]

Bentnail,

I think the comment from Shadow9mm is more an observation about the need for an enormous amount of data to make an conclusion and the complication caused by eroding chambers during the process of measuring really minute differences.

Most shooters don't collect enough data to be able to identify statistically significant differences in the performance between loads and bullets used, so finding differences caused by Jump is almost impossible for them to identify with any certainty.

I have gathered data on jump for my .223 Savage 12 FV with over 7,000 rounds down the barrel. I measure and record every group and record data on group size, powder charge, temperature, exit time, pressure, seating depth, cartridge trim length, and jump and calculate group averages, median and standard deviation for each load.

I have recorded jump for all of those rounds but have had to adjust the barrel chamber length measurements every 500 rounds to get jump data that is actually representative.

All my measurements are impacted by the problem caused by "shooter induced variation" that I measure by the standard deviation between the group sizes for each of the 360 different loads that I have shot. I admit that I have some big variations and some really small variations depending upon my concentration or the varying conditions for each session at the range.

Add to that the fact that different bullet brands and bullet weights seem to have preferences for particular jumps and the chances of getting enough data to conclude anything from bullet to bullet is daunting.

I think you can see why Shadow9mm makes his comment.

Turns out, that if I choose only my loads with reasonably small Standard Deviations (100 out of the 360 loads), there is some data that can be used to make some tentative conclusions. I say tentative because the results are so similar, it is not really clear that Jump is the only determinant of the results.

Turns out that the data suggests that there are jump preferences that appear out of the data, but the difference between the smallest group average jump and the largest group average jump is about 0.028 at 100 yards. The best few jumps vary by less than 0.005 in group average. That is almost certain to be statistically insignificant, given all the other variables present.

My overall 5-round average for the top 100 loads at 100 yards is 0.239.
The overall 5-ground group average for all 360 groups is 0.279.
The 360 group average includes all powders and bullets, even those that the barrel really shoots terribly. (Eight loads (15 groups) averaged over 0.4 inches. One particular bullet averaged 0.653 at 100 yards. Most of those larger groups were shot with bullets and powders that didn't work well in this barrel and seriously increased the overall average group size.)

You can see that one can really mislead themselves in trying to analyze data, especially if there is too little data or to much degraded data to make statistically valid conclusions.

[Nathan]

I deprime before, before clean, but the only value is getting the primer out for better inspection.

For a 223 bolt gun, I would start with Lapua, Norma or similar high end brass. Accuracy starts with cases. This also eliminates primer pocket decrimping

For primer pocket decrimping, I find staging on press to be cheapest and easiest. I use the Hornady 3 die process, but I think the RCBS is simpler…there are others. The crimp is formed from existing case material. Swaging is attempting to put it back. It can raise a burr toward the bolt face. This impedes priming without a light touch from a deburring tool.

Before I sized something twice, I would test double sizing on a target. Is it really better?

Trimming after sizing is best. Most chambers run long by quite a bit. I think I would trim more like 0.010” under max…might be worth checking chamber length with Brownell’s tool or a Teslong bore scope. With a sized case chambered.

Seat bullet to the shorter of mag length, 0.030” off lands or bullet seated to full neck engagement.

Same thing with crimp. Develop a load with or without crimp, then test the other. Which is more accurate?

I don’t know plink test. Just go shoot with the rifle rested on sand bags. There are many options, most are good enough. If you have nothing, concrete block with a sandbag on top can make a good front rest. Setting on cardboard can improve stability and allow elevation adjustment. Just need a bag at the rear.

Steps:
1) deprime
2) fl size & measure cbtd
3) trim & deburr
4) (optional) primer pocket swage & deburr; or just brush out
5) prime
6) charge
7) seat
8) (optional) measure runout and seating depth

[44 AMP]

What is the intended use of your Ruger American???

[Bentnail]

So i cleaner my dies with brake cleaner since this is the first time to use them. The full length die I did spray some Dry Silicone inside it to lube it up. I used CRC Food Grade Silicone spray. I also set out for 100 223 REM brass to size and trim first.

I sized in full length and notice that it takes alittle umph the first stroke. I would hold for a 2 sec count and then release and then rotate the case 1/4ish turn and repeat.

Then i took all that I FS and sent them thru trim whether they needed it or not. I am trimmed to a length of 1.753 inches. I believe that I am below the 1.760 by about 0.007 thouandths. I measured all of them to make sure.

So next I am going to wash them again as I coated them with the silicone spray i shot inside the DS die.

Then I will move onto priming and powder, and bullet seating.


Now out of the 100 I have 2 of them get caught on mandrel. One pulled out of the deprime pin right out of the die the other got stuck in the die. The one stuck in I lossened the pin and drove it out with a drift pin.

Otherwise i can say that the Lee Deluxe trimmed works fairly well. It did trim down and also it does chamfer inside and out at the same time.

[Shadow9mm]

Sounds like a good start, there are always a few bumps getting equipment sorted out.

As i am sure you can see there is no shortage of opinions on what to do and how to do it. Try some stuff, make sure it works every time, and don't get stuck trying to put a square peg into a round hole not matter who tells you it works great.

Have fun, you will be making some fine loads before you know it.

[Bentnail]

So I used CRC Food Grade Silicone sprayed on outside and inside of the brass for lengthing. Is there a lube that is the best? Best bang for the buck to speak? I bought the CRC silicone based on reading someone on here saying that it dries dry and dont have to really rewash. But I had 2 out of 50 that got caught.

Also I read that some of the manufacturers lube isnt the best. But it is the application of the lube, so would be it be better to have a lube that is gelish or liquid thick that i can dip a brass end into...then go to press. OR??

Information is what I like.

Thank you

[Marco Califo]

Lubing cases for sizing is done with minimal lube. Lube-ing pads are made. You can use a paper towel. Roll on a light film you can barely see. Any more than that will need room to squish into, causing problems.
The only purpose is to prevent cases from sticking in your die. I use White Lithium Grease and a paper towel and typically, for 223, lube every third case. Some lube stays in the die so next case or two won't stick. Any lube needs to be removed after sizing, corn cob media works great.
In terms of your "process", I do not think you have a process until you do it and complete it more than once. Otherwise, it is trial and error and fixing things you were not originally aware of. The process needs to include range tests of your loads and reprocessing the brass.
"CRC Food Grade Silicone"? How does that taste?

[Nathan]

Yes.

Imperial sizing wax

Or Creedmoor Sports case sizing wax

[Shadow9mm]

did you spray the inside of the die as well?

If your looking for a spray lube I use Hornady 1 shot case lube. Clean your die then spray the lube in it. spray your brass, let them sit for a couple minutes, begin sizing. i spray inside if the die if its been more than a day since I last loaded.

I throw my brass in a gallon ziplock bag about 1 layer deep, spray them down, shake them up, and dump them int a plastic tray to let the carrier dry off, great for bulk loading.

if your doing smaller batch stuff, I have heard amazing thing about imperial sizing wax, its just a bit more labor intensive.

[Nathan]

Hornady one shot can work great too, but you asked what was best.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Hornady one shot can work great too, but you asked what was best.

Best is relative, If your loading 20-100 at a time imperial is definitely the best imho. If your running a progressive and trying to size 500-1000 cases in a day, well lubing ease case individually is rather a bit impractical.

Both provide adequate lubrication, imperials lubrication is better but slower, everything has trade offs.

[Bentnail]

I made 10 yesterday morning and took them to range. Out of 10, 7 fired fine and the 3 misfired. Primers didnt ignite at all, but the dimple from the pin is spot on center. SO who knows on them, I need to pick up a bullet puller as my kinetic puller is not doing the job for Rifle cartridge that it does for pistol.

My FPS avg was 2496.8 based on 69gr bullet with 24.0 gr of CFE223 powder. So I will load another 10ish and up my powder by .5 tenths and check again.

[Shadow9mm]

Sounds good. Double check your primers are fully seated. If you set them on a flat surface like a table or counter top they should sit flat with no wobble. If the primers not seated all the way it can act like a light strike, basically pushing the primer in instead of setting it off. Sometimes they will go off if you try and fire them a 2nd time.

Worst case, if you cant get your bullet puller to play nice there are other tools like the hornady collet puller but they are not cheap. If you don't mind ruining your bullet, you can take your suzing die out. Run the cartridge up into the press. Grab the bullet with pliers and lower the press. Just like pulling a casing out of the sizing die it will pull the bullet off the top of the case. You generally ruin the bullet, but will save everything else.

[tangolima]

Max coal spec may not always be a safety starting seating depth. Depending on bullet profile and barrel, the ogive could have jammed into the riflings. It could also cause misfires like high primes. Always measure zero bullet jump coal when switching to a new bullet. 0.03 - 0.05" bullet jump is a good starting point.

Difference between min and max powder charge is usually 10%. 10 loadings with 1% step is my routine. Constant percentage, instead of constant grain(s).

69gr bullet is on long side for .223. Make sure your barrel has tight enough twist to handle that.

Not to discourage you, 1moa is not trivial, dispite all the casual talks on internet. Don't feel bad if you are a bit short of that.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk