Flexibility, 45 Colt vs. 44 mag

[Ken - Oh]

Some reloading manuals have sections for 45LC marked "Ruger and TC Only". They aren't the wimpy cowboy loads.

Ken

[SwampYankee]

Frogsaw, Midway sells a jacketed 325 grain bullet at .451 diameter. They only sell up to 300 grain bullets in .429 with a jacket. Although if you want, they sell a lead bullet with a gas check in 325 grains for .429. In fact Buffalo Bore makes a .45 LC that can push a 325 grain bullet to 1,300 fps, producing 1200 ft-lbs of energy. And Buffalo Bore is not selling the fastest bullet it can, it's got liability issues to think about. At that speed, it's about 26,000 psi. The Ruger Redhawk can handle at least 30,000 psi, and I've heard of people pushing it into the 40's. I would not try it myself, but that's .44 mag performance if I've ever heard of it- and at less pressure.

[WESHOOT2]

It can be found on the shelf of every gunshop.
It doesn't dent the wallet quite as much.
HKS speedloaders work better.


That said, the 45 Colt, when launched from the proper platform, exceeds the performance potential of the 44 Magnum.



Not guessing.......

[GeauxTide]

Own both, love both. Lots of debate on the subject. John Linebaugh condenses a lot of the hoorah in a nice article on his website. I have two LC Blackhawks, a SBH, and an 1894. The 45s are fed 275LFN @1050 and the 44s are fed 240SP with a stout H110 charge.

[zxcvbob]

I love shooting .45 Colt; I have a big heavy 7.5" Ruger and am thinking about getting a New Vaquero or similar SAA so I'll have a .45 that's more carryable. But:

The .44 Magnum is inherently more accurate (I think they manufacture the guns to tighter tolerances than .45's unless you get a .454 Casull.) And .44 Magnum ammo is cheaper than .45 Colt.

I usually recommend getting a .45 Colt if you want a single-action, or a .44 Magnum or .44 Special if you want a double-action (has more to do with the rim size than anything.) Whichever you get, you'll have to reload for it eventually so you might as well start now

[Hammonje]

I would think the initial momentum of the .44 mag would be greater or "snappier" (there is a technical term for this)

It's called impulse.

I like the low recoil of .45 Colt. They are a pleasure to shoot, not so with the more violent .44 Mag. I have two Ruger Vaqueros and a Puma M92 in .45 Colt and love 'em all.

[Maromero]

I don't reload so take my comment with caution but if you are going to "Magnumize" a .45 Colt, the preasures expirience will be allmost equal and so would the recoil. Comparing the ballistics of the two cartridges should be a wash.

[Ken - Oh]

Well I just read on another list that the newer Ruger 45 Colts are on a smaller frame and are less stout than the older ones. As such, I will retract my earlier comments since I don't really know what the current Rugers can handle.

Ken

[AlaskaMike]

Ken--the New Vaquero is indeed smaller than the original Vaquero and cannot safely handle heavy loads. The original Vaquero was basically a Blackhawk with fixed sights and because of that it's safe with any load that's safe for a Blackhawk.

Mike

[Maromero]

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...-1&isFirearm=Y

in theory the 625 should handle every load resembling a .44 Mag.

[AlaskaMike]

in theory the 625 should handle every load resembling a .44 Mag.

While it's true that the 625 is an N frame just as the 629 is, that definitely does not mean it can handle the same pressures. You have to remember that with the larger .45 caliber chambers, there is less cylinder wall to contain the pressure.

I would rephrase your statement to say that in theory the 625 should handle up to 23,000 psi loads.

Mike

[Maromero]

Like previously stated I don't know about reloading so don't take my questions argumentatively. Does a reduction of .02 inches in the cylinder wall weakens it that much. I'm under the impresions that a .44 mag operates somewhere north of 35,000 psi?

P.D. I'm aware that manuals have data for a reason and are to be followed religiously to ensure safety, unless you have the expertice to do otherwise but my ? Is strickly academic since I don't reload.

[Ken - Oh]

disregard.

[SwampYankee]

in theory the 625 should handle every load resembling a .44 Mag.

Smith and Wesson explicitly warns users NOT to push the Model 25's and 625's to excessive pressures.

While Ruger gives the .45 Colts the same heat/steel treatment as their .44 Mag's, S&W does not and never has. Obviously, the small size of the New Vaquero means it is not capable of .44 Mag performance.

I'm under the impresions that a .44 mag operates somewhere north of 35,000 psi?

Yes, and previous information I have read suggests that a Ruger .45 Colt can withstand 60,000 psi before it pops- not that it should be tried, but this is why a Ruger .45 Colt can get you to .44 Mag performance.

[Maromero]

Thanks everyone for your imput.

[Sport45]

For a handloader shooting a Blackhawk it's a toss up. I shoot .45 Colt Redhawk and have sometimes (but not often) wished I had gone with the .44mag. The greater rim protrusion would make DA reloading more reliable. With the .45 Colt I have to make sure I get the muzzle almost vertical before hitting the ejector for the ones that didn't drop out on the way up. Of course, I suppose that's good practice anyway..

[Scorch]

I'm under the impresions that a .44 mag operates somewhere north of 35,000 psi?

SAAMI spec for 44 S&W Magnum is 36,000 psi, 45 Colt is 14,000 psi (in deference to older revolvers), but the loads for Rugers and TCs go to 28,000 psi.

[maxndale]

Allright great debate/info. So I have a strong interest in this debate, as I am looking for a 45LC or 44mag. I currently have a Vaquero in 45LC and just started loading for this. So I am leaning more toward 45LC.

I want a double action revolver and am looking at the Ruger Redhawk and S&W Mountain Gun both in 45LC.

What gun is going to give me a better platform at 45LC Maximum level, hunting and last ditch bear defensive loads?

[Sport45]

What gun is going to give me a better platform at 45LC Maximum level, hunting and last ditch bear defensive loads?

Maximum level for the Mountain Gun will fall shy of maximum for the Redhawk. Go with .44mag and you can choose either.

Is your Vaquero a new model or old? If it's a new model don't try the "Ruger Only" loads as they don't apply to that gun.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by Maromero

Like previously stated I don't know about reloading so don't take my questions argumentatively. Does a reduction of .02 inches in the cylinder wall weakens it that much. I'm under the impresions that a .44 mag operates somewhere north of 35,000 psi?

Originally Posted by Maromero

Thanks everyone for your imput.

Maromero, you're welcome.

Looking at the outer diameter of the brass (not the bullet), .480-.457=0.023". If the geometry of the guns' frames (44 and 45) are the same, the thickness of the (same size cylinder) cylinder wall between the chamber and the outside of the cylinder would only be 0.0115" thinner. However, the thickness of the metal between adjacent chambers would be approximately 0.023" thinner.

There is also another consideration as well. The smaller the diameter of a pressure vessel/container the more pressure it can hold (with the same tension on the walls of the vessel). example: the pressure inside a small soap bubble is higher than the pressure inside a large soap bubble, given the same tension in the "skin" of the bubble.

These differences are small, but do mandate that the larger chambers of the 45 Colt must be limited to a slightly lower maximum pressure than the 44 magnum.

But trumping all that is the area of the base of the bullet. The tiny increase in the diameter gives a bigger boost to the energy imparted to the bullet because the boost is squared (proportional to the area of the base of the bullet)

Reloading ain't rocket science, though it may feel like it when you launch a bullet downrange. Interior ballistics gets more involved, but you seem to have a pretty good handle on the factors.

Good observations.

Originally Posted by Maromero

I don't reload so take my comment with caution but if you are going to "Magnumize" a .45 Colt, the preasures expirience will be allmost equal and so would the recoil. Comparing the ballistics of the two cartridges should be a wash.

This is the question that has me stumped. Same weight bullets launched from the same weight gun at the same velocity should produce the same felt recoil to the shooter, but I repeatedly am told that larger bore guns (since they can impart the same velocity to a given weight bullet with lower pressure) produce lower recoil. I have not been able to figure that out, yet.

Lost Sheep

[B.L.E.]

This is the question that has me stumped. Same weight bullets launched from the same weight gun at the same velocity should produce the same felt recoil to the shooter, but I repeatedly am told that larger bore guns (since they can impart the same velocity to a given weight bullet with lower pressure) produce lower recoil. I have not been able to figure that out, yet.

My guess is that maybe the gas that propels the bullet exits the barrel faster after the bullet is out of the barrel. In magnum loads, the powder gas is responsible for a sizable percentage of the total recoil.

Another possible factor may be that recoil is judged by people just like figure skating is. People will feel more recoil if there is more muzzle flash and noise even if the actual recoil is identical.

[SwampYankee]

These differences are small, but do mandate that the larger chambers of the 45 Colt must be limited to a slightly lower maximum pressure than the 44 magnum.

That's not entirely true. As I said, a .45 Colt Redhawk can handle as much a 60,000 psi from test reports. It's cylinder is the same diameter as the .44 Mag Redhawk which can easily handle 36,000 psi (and may also explode at 60,000 psi) , but yes, it will have slightly thinner chamber walls. What you are missing is the heat treatment. Heat treating tool steel can cause it's tensile strength to go from 60,000 psi to 300,000 psi. They don't use tool steel in firearms, but that's just a dramatic example on how heat treatment can change the quality of the steel- not to mention the alloying elements. The thickness is just a part of the strength equation.

[SL1]

1. In comparing cylinder strengths with different sized chambers, we need to include the effects of the cuts in the cylinder for the stop (that aligns the chambers with the bore). The metal is thinner there, and the shape is also a "stress riser" that can initiate failure at that point. Just looking at the difference in thickness of the chamber walls to the outside of the cylinder is misleading.

2. Comparing the .44 Magnum at SAAMI specs to the .45 Long Colt at pressures well beyond SAAMI maximum is not the same as comparing what handloaders can achieve in the same frame with the two different cartridges. The SAAMI pressure specification in psi has greatly reduced the performance of the .44 Magnum compared to what was achieved with the old CUP standard. So, .44 Magnums are often "pushed" with older data, or even with new data in CUP that was produced by companies that did not want to publish anemic loads for that cartridge.

SL1

[WESHOOT2]

So I used to own 5.5" Redhawks in all four chamberings, all wearing Pachmayr Decelerator stocks.
"Bolt head thrust", I suggest, lessened the recoil feel of the larger chamberings (gonna leave the 357 version out of this, because them little holes meant WAY more weight mitigating recoil).
The 44 'felt' softer than the 41 with similar or equal-weight bullets; same between the 45 and 44.

But there is one point I'd like to address: The 45 Colt ballistics can far exceed those of the 44. I mean, you just cannot stuff bullets over 340g in a 44 Redhawk cylinder, but you can easiily shoot 360--395g bullets from the 45.
Recoil, though, is utterly unforgiving.......



I still have the 5.5" 44, and a 7.5" 357.

[zxcvbob]

Don't forget that the .45 Colt makes a much better blackpowder cartridge when you wanna make a bunch of fire and smoke and noise.