Does the Model 42 slamfire like a Model 12?

gyvel · October 12, 2009, 12:04 AM

Do Winchester Model 42's slamfire like their bigger brothers, the Model 12?

zippy13 · October 12, 2009, 11:03 AM

What a great question!
The Model 12 was initially configured without a disconnector but the later Model 42 has one.

gyvel · October 13, 2009, 09:05 PM

Thanks, Zippy!

dgludwig · October 15, 2009, 01:04 AM

I always thought the term "slam fire" described a firearm that discharged prematurely as the bolt slammed home without the trigger being pulled-never a good thing. Firearms without disconnectors like the aforementioned Model 12, the Model 97, early (I believe) Model 37s and others fired as the bolt closed each time but required holding the trigger back as the slide was operated.

hogdogs · October 15, 2009, 05:17 AM

Quote:

I always thought the term "slam fire" described a firearm that discharged prematurely as the bolt slammed home without the trigger being pulled-never a good thing.

I considered the above to be an "out of battery discharge"...
Slam fire as I know it does refer to the intentional discharging multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger following repeated cyclic actions.
Brent

gyvel · October 15, 2009, 08:23 AM

"Slam fire" is a colloquial term at best. I was referring to the ability of a gun to be fired merely by holding the trigger and operating the slide repeatedly.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the real definition of "slam fire" refers to a very crude type of weapon consisting of two tubes, one of which slides over the other. A shell or cartridge is placed in the chamber of one tube (the "barrel"), and "slammed" backwards into the other tube which contains a "breech face" with a protruding firing pin.

I remember National Gun Traders in Miami, FL selling these about 40-45 years ago for something like $9.95. They were imported from the Philippines where, I have read, they are very popular amongst the tribesmen in remote regions.

I don't think they made it past the GCA of '68.

Willie Lowman · October 15, 2009, 09:20 AM

"slam fire" is also used to describe the action of an open bolt submachinegun.

DougP · October 16, 2009, 06:56 AM

A slamfire is a premature, unintended discharge of a firearm that occurs as a round is being loaded into the chamber. Slamfires are most common in military firearms that have a free-floating firing pin, as opposed to a spring-loaded one. In the action of a typical semi-automatic weapon, the energy of a fired round forces the bolt and bolt carrier rearward, ejecting the empty case. A spring then forces the bolt forward again, and in the process a fresh round is stripped out of the magazine. When the face of the bolt hits the head of the chamber, unless there is a spring around the pin to retard its movement, inertia causes the firing pin to continue forward until it is stopped on the primer of the round. Sometimes this inertial force is sufficient to set off the primer, thereby firing the round without the operator pulling the trigger. This can potentially occur repeatedly, until the magazine has been emptied or the weapon malfunctions.

Slamfires are a very dangerous situation, because the operator will have no control of the weapon. Though they are very rare in quality well-maintained weapons using quality ammunition, all weapons operators should be aware of the risk. It is wise to ensure that the weapon is pointed in a safe direction ("downrange") before closing the bolt and chambering a cartridge. If a slamfire does occur, the operator must do his best to remain calm and hold the weapon securely, pointed in a safe direction, until it ceases firing. Needless to say, this requires extraordinary discipline and many operators will "spook" and instinctively drop the weapon as soon as it begins firing.

As dirt and fouling accumulate in the firing pin channel, the pin may begin to protrude from the bolt face, and the risk of slamfire increases. If the firing pin is permanently locked forward, as is done intentionally for open bolt designs, the round will fire every time the bolt closes.

Aside from the dangers of any accidental discharge, slamfires present the particular risk of an out-of-battery detonation. This occurs when a round is fired before it is completely secured in the chamber, and can damage or destroy the firearm, as well as potentially injure the operator and bystanders.

Recognizing the obvious need to minimize the chance of this happening, there are two simple methods commonly employed. One is to use ammunition with harder primers, which require a more significant strike from the firing pin and are thus unlikely to go off with a comparatively light inertial strike. Most military ammunition makes use of hard primers for this reason.[1][2] The second method of minimizing the risk of slamfire is in the design of the firearm itself. Spring-loaded firing pins prevent slamfires because the pin cannot easily move inside the bolt. A proper strike from the firearm's hammer will overcome the resistance of the spring, but ordinary inertia will not. A simple solution in free-floating pin designs is to make the firing pin itself very lightweight, which reduces its inertia and lessens the risk of slamfire.

Technically, the risk of slamfire is inherent in any design that uses a free-floating firing pin. This does not necessarily equate to an inferior design, however, as many excellent military firearms make use of them due to their simplicity and ruggedness. One such design often associated with a tendency to slamfire is the SKS. Many of the reported cases of slamfire in the SKS are quite likely in surplus examples that have not been properly cleaned of preservative cosmoline inside the firing pin channel. The old British Army Sten gun was well known for slam-firing, having been commonly known to be dropped, and the entire weapons magazine being emptied whilst the weapon spun in a circle on the floor due to the direction of the recoil of the bolt (the same recoil that would cause barrel-rise, were the weapon held by a user), a number of soldiers having been known to be shot in the ankle during such incidents.

In properly maintained firearms using appropriate ammunition, slamfires are very rare.

Pump action shotguns lacking a trigger disconnector can be slamfired, on purpose or otherwise, if the trigger is kept depressed whilst cycling the action.

musicmatty · October 16, 2009, 08:34 AM

I had a 'slam fire' happen with my then new Rem 870 express back in 1988. I chambered one round and the hammer didn't lock and it shot off...sprayed my girlfriends leg and it was nasty.

I'll never own another Rem. again after that mess...just a bad experience for me with that gun..and thank God the gun wasn't pointed at her but she did manage to get some of the spray from it.

Needless to say, I am over cautious with shotguns now ..never will have that mishap again.

dgludwig · October 16, 2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

A slamfire is a premature, unintended discharge of a firearm that occurs as a round is being loaded into the chamber.

Quote:

Pump action shotguns lacking a trigger disconnector can be slamfired, on purpose or otherwise, if the trigger is kept depressed whilst cycling the action.

I think you were making a lot of sense-until you added the last sentence, which appears to contradict all of the preceding information.

zippy13 · October 16, 2009, 12:38 PM

Correct usage, or not, anyone familiar with disconnectorless shotguns knew what the OP was asking with his: "Does the Model 42 slamfire like a Model 12?" However, I suspect there were some newBs who didn't have a clue.

Dave McC · October 16, 2009, 06:12 PM

gyvel, those Phillipino zip shotguns were called Palintids, and served as guerrilla arms during WWII against the Japanese.

October 12, 2009, 12:04 AM	#1
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Does the Model 42 slamfire like a Model 12? Do Winchester Model 42's slamfire like their bigger brothers, the Model 12?

October 15, 2009, 01:04 AM	#4
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	I always thought the term "slam fire" described a firearm that discharged prematurely as the bolt slammed home without the trigger being pulled-never a good thing. Firearms without disconnectors like the aforementioned Model 12, the Model 97, early (I believe) Model 37s and others fired as the bolt closed each time but required holding the trigger back as the slide was operated. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

October 15, 2009, 09:20 AM	#7
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	"slam fire" is also used to describe the action of an open bolt submachinegun. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

October 16, 2009, 06:56 AM	#8
DougP Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Location: Ohio US Posts: 54	slam and jam em -- not good A slamfire is a premature, unintended discharge of a firearm that occurs as a round is being loaded into the chamber. Slamfires are most common in military firearms that have a free-floating firing pin, as opposed to a spring-loaded one. In the action of a typical semi-automatic weapon, the energy of a fired round forces the bolt and bolt carrier rearward, ejecting the empty case. A spring then forces the bolt forward again, and in the process a fresh round is stripped out of the magazine. When the face of the bolt hits the head of the chamber, unless there is a spring around the pin to retard its movement, inertia causes the firing pin to continue forward until it is stopped on the primer of the round. Sometimes this inertial force is sufficient to set off the primer, thereby firing the round without the operator pulling the trigger. This can potentially occur repeatedly, until the magazine has been emptied or the weapon malfunctions. Slamfires are a very dangerous situation, because the operator will have no control of the weapon. Though they are very rare in quality well-maintained weapons using quality ammunition, all weapons operators should be aware of the risk. It is wise to ensure that the weapon is pointed in a safe direction ("downrange") before closing the bolt and chambering a cartridge. If a slamfire does occur, the operator must do his best to remain calm and hold the weapon securely, pointed in a safe direction, until it ceases firing. Needless to say, this requires extraordinary discipline and many operators will "spook" and instinctively drop the weapon as soon as it begins firing. As dirt and fouling accumulate in the firing pin channel, the pin may begin to protrude from the bolt face, and the risk of slamfire increases. If the firing pin is permanently locked forward, as is done intentionally for open bolt designs, the round will fire every time the bolt closes. Aside from the dangers of any accidental discharge, slamfires present the particular risk of an out-of-battery detonation. This occurs when a round is fired before it is completely secured in the chamber, and can damage or destroy the firearm, as well as potentially injure the operator and bystanders. Recognizing the obvious need to minimize the chance of this happening, there are two simple methods commonly employed. One is to use ammunition with harder primers, which require a more significant strike from the firing pin and are thus unlikely to go off with a comparatively light inertial strike. Most military ammunition makes use of hard primers for this reason.[1][2] The second method of minimizing the risk of slamfire is in the design of the firearm itself. Spring-loaded firing pins prevent slamfires because the pin cannot easily move inside the bolt. A proper strike from the firearm's hammer will overcome the resistance of the spring, but ordinary inertia will not. A simple solution in free-floating pin designs is to make the firing pin itself very lightweight, which reduces its inertia and lessens the risk of slamfire. Technically, the risk of slamfire is inherent in any design that uses a free-floating firing pin. This does not necessarily equate to an inferior design, however, as many excellent military firearms make use of them due to their simplicity and ruggedness. One such design often associated with a tendency to slamfire is the SKS. Many of the reported cases of slamfire in the SKS are quite likely in surplus examples that have not been properly cleaned of preservative cosmoline inside the firing pin channel. The old British Army Sten gun was well known for slam-firing, having been commonly known to be dropped, and the entire weapons magazine being emptied whilst the weapon spun in a circle on the floor due to the direction of the recoil of the bolt (the same recoil that would cause barrel-rise, were the weapon held by a user), a number of soldiers having been known to be shot in the ankle during such incidents. In properly maintained firearms using appropriate ammunition, slamfires are very rare. Pump action shotguns lacking a trigger disconnector can be slamfired, on purpose or otherwise, if the trigger is kept depressed whilst cycling the action.

October 12, 2009, 11:03 AM	#2
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	What a great question! The Model 12 was initially configured without a disconnector but the later Model 42 has one.

October 13, 2009, 09:05 PM	#3
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Thanks, Zippy!

October 15, 2009, 08:23 AM	#6
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	"Slam fire" is a colloquial term at best. I was referring to the ability of a gun to be fired merely by holding the trigger and operating the slide repeatedly. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the real definition of "slam fire" refers to a very crude type of weapon consisting of two tubes, one of which slides over the other. A shell or cartridge is placed in the chamber of one tube (the "barrel"), and "slammed" backwards into the other tube which contains a "breech face" with a protruding firing pin. I remember National Gun Traders in Miami, FL selling these about 40-45 years ago for something like $9.95. They were imported from the Philippines where, I have read, they are very popular amongst the tribesmen in remote regions. I don't think they made it past the GCA of '68.

October 16, 2009, 08:34 AM	#9
musicmatty Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Location: Eastcoast Posts: 346	I had a 'slam fire' happen with my then new Rem 870 express back in 1988. I chambered one round and the hammer didn't lock and it shot off...sprayed my girlfriends leg and it was nasty. I'll never own another Rem. again after that mess...just a bad experience for me with that gun..and thank God the gun wasn't pointed at her but she did manage to get some of the spray from it. Needless to say, I am over cautious with shotguns now ..never will have that mishap again.

October 16, 2009, 12:38 PM	#11
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Correct usage, or not, anyone familiar with disconnectorless shotguns knew what the OP was asking with his: "Does the Model 42 slamfire like a Model 12?" However, I suspect there were some newBs who didn't have a clue.

October 16, 2009, 06:12 PM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	gyvel, those Phillipino zip shotguns were called Palintids, and served as guerrilla arms during WWII against the Japanese.