firearms timeline

m16a2223 · July 5, 2001, 08:25 PM

I am an archaeology student at a university. I work in the lab quite a bit. Often, when we are sorting artifacts, we find firearms related items. Today I found part of the brass of a 12ga. shotgun shell. This part,which consisted of the primer and two tiny flakes of the rim, was paper(on the inside) ahead of the primer. I assume that this was a paper shell. My question is, what year did all brass shells go out and paper come in?

P.S. I have quite a bit of firearms knowledge, but gun history before ww1 is not one of my strong points

It would be really nice if we had some kind of ammunition timeline to keep in the lab.

Thanks, m16

C.R.Sam · July 5, 2001, 11:42 PM

"My question is, what year did all brass shells go out and paper come in? "

That didn't really happen, at least not at a given time. Brass shells popular with some reloaders for another 100 years or so after the advent of paper shells. Since there is no requirement for a mouth crimp with a brass shotshell a brass user can vary any componant without having to change wadding stack to make the total load come out even at the mouth of the case.

In 1860 George Daw developed a shotshell case using a sheet brass head, removable primer pocket and a cardboard body. The birth of the paper shot shell........over 140 years ago. Winchester was crankin em out a hundred years ago.

Economy of loading also helped keep the brass hulls alive. A box or two of brass hulls could literaly last a hunter a lifetime.

Last new brass I bought was in 1957

Sam

**Mike Irwin** · July 6, 2001, 02:02 AM

As Sam says, there is a HUGE overlap.

Brass shells were still being made in the United States up until possibly the 1960s. After that, they could be had from Europe. At least one European company still makes brass shot shells, and I would not be at all surprised if, because of Cowboy Action Shooting, they make a comeback.

Paper-hulled shells are still in production, again all European, I think, but were still in production in the United States as recently as the 1980s.

Plastic hulls came into their own after WW II.

Quantrill · July 7, 2001, 07:40 AM

I bought new brass shotshell empties in 1991 and believe they are still available. They were made by Bell Extrusion Laboratories Limited (B.E.L.L.)
Quantrill

C.R.Sam · July 7, 2001, 10:30 AM

Does anybody have a starting date for all brass shot shells. I think the brass/paper ones (circa 1860) predate the all brass but not sure.

Thanx....Sam

**Mike Irwin** · July 7, 2001, 11:03 AM

Ok, I've got a couple of dates...

1836-1838 - Lefaucheau pinfire shotshell introduced. They may have been rolled brass/paper, drawn copper, or even later, drawn brass. I've never seen one.

1875 is the earliest date that I can find for American all-brass shotshells.

I can't find a date for paper/brass shotshells, but it probably wasn't very much earlier.

1958 saw the introduction of the first plastic-hulled shotshells in the United States.

C.R.Sam · July 7, 2001, 01:41 PM

Center fire.........

So far Mike has all the all brass starting bout 1875 and I have Daw doin the brass base/paper hull in 1860.

Good grief, looks like the paper hull a little older and they both still goin. George Daw's 1860 version is still relatively unchanged except for mouth crimp.

Trivia found while workin on the hull research, shot cups are from the 19th century.

Sam....and my grandkids think I'm old.

**Mike Irwin** · July 7, 2001, 02:34 PM

Sam,

I think it's entirely possible that all-brass shotshells started earlier, but not before the end of the Civil War.

The biggest impediment was the ability to draw the brass properly. That was the hold-back for the powerful, large-bore lever rifles of the time, too. Copper could be drawn, but it wasn't strong enough, and spinning the brass to the proper length often resulted in a shell that simply wasn't strong enough.

By about 1870-75, though, the technology was just about there.

C.R.Sam · July 7, 2001, 04:46 PM

Yeah, I too was thinkin the difficulty of deep drawing might be a factor.

July 5, 2001, 08:25 PM	#1
m16a2223 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 1999 Location: Alabama Posts: 128	firearms timeline I am an archaeology student at a university. I work in the lab quite a bit. Often, when we are sorting artifacts, we find firearms related items. Today I found part of the brass of a 12ga. shotgun shell. This part,which consisted of the primer and two tiny flakes of the rim, was paper(on the inside) ahead of the primer. I assume that this was a paper shell. My question is, what year did all brass shells go out and paper come in? P.S. I have quite a bit of firearms knowledge, but gun history before ww1 is not one of my strong points It would be really nice if we had some kind of ammunition timeline to keep in the lab. Thanks, m16

July 5, 2001, 11:42 PM	#2
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	"My question is, what year did all brass shells go out and paper come in? " That didn't really happen, at least not at a given time. Brass shells popular with some reloaders for another 100 years or so after the advent of paper shells. Since there is no requirement for a mouth crimp with a brass shotshell a brass user can vary any componant without having to change wadding stack to make the total load come out even at the mouth of the case. In 1860 George Daw developed a shotshell case using a sheet brass head, removable primer pocket and a cardboard body. The birth of the paper shot shell........over 140 years ago. Winchester was crankin em out a hundred years ago. Economy of loading also helped keep the brass hulls alive. A box or two of brass hulls could literaly last a hunter a lifetime. Last new brass I bought was in 1957 Sam Last edited by C.R.Sam; July 6, 2001 at 01:47 AM.

July 6, 2001, 02:02 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	As Sam says, there is a HUGE overlap. Brass shells were still being made in the United States up until possibly the 1960s. After that, they could be had from Europe. At least one European company still makes brass shot shells, and I would not be at all surprised if, because of Cowboy Action Shooting, they make a comeback. Paper-hulled shells are still in production, again all European, I think, but were still in production in the United States as recently as the 1980s. Plastic hulls came into their own after WW II. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 7, 2001, 07:40 AM	#4
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	Brass Shotshells I bought new brass shotshell empties in 1991 and believe they are still available. They were made by Bell Extrusion Laboratories Limited (B.E.L.L.) Quantrill

July 7, 2001, 11:03 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Ok, I've got a couple of dates... 1836-1838 - Lefaucheau pinfire shotshell introduced. They may have been rolled brass/paper, drawn copper, or even later, drawn brass. I've never seen one. 1875 is the earliest date that I can find for American all-brass shotshells. I can't find a date for paper/brass shotshells, but it probably wasn't very much earlier. 1958 saw the introduction of the first plastic-hulled shotshells in the United States. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 7, 2001, 10:30 AM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Does anybody have a starting date for all brass shot shells. I think the brass/paper ones (circa 1860) predate the all brass but not sure. Thanx....Sam

July 7, 2001, 01:41 PM	#7
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Center fire......... So far Mike has all the all brass starting bout 1875 and I have Daw doin the brass base/paper hull in 1860. Good grief, looks like the paper hull a little older and they both still goin. George Daw's 1860 version is still relatively unchanged except for mouth crimp. Trivia found while workin on the hull research, shot cups are from the 19th century. Sam....and my grandkids think I'm old.

July 7, 2001, 02:34 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Sam, I think it's entirely possible that all-brass shotshells started earlier, but not before the end of the Civil War. The biggest impediment was the ability to draw the brass properly. That was the hold-back for the powerful, large-bore lever rifles of the time, too. Copper could be drawn, but it wasn't strong enough, and spinning the brass to the proper length often resulted in a shell that simply wasn't strong enough. By about 1870-75, though, the technology was just about there. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 7, 2001, 04:46 PM	#9
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Yeah, I too was thinkin the difficulty of deep drawing might be a factor.