Question about annealed brass

[Bytesniffer]

Enclosed pic of annealed
Brass.
Is it normal to see
Discoloration in brass
Especially neck.
To hot ?
Tumbling doest remove
Heating marks.
Some necks look
Silver like ?

[EchoBravo]

The appearance of annealed brass is not a good indicator of the proper temperature for annealing, despite a lot of misinformation you'll get. If you're doing it yourself, I recommend you get a bottle of Tempilaq and use that to be sure. 650 degrees is a good choice for most applications.

I apply it on the side up to the shoulder and heat the neck until the end of the Tempilaq mark turns dark, meaning the neck is hot enough to anneal properly and I have not overly heated the rest of the case.

[mehavey]

How was the brass annealed ?

[Marco Califo]

Your brass does look like normal annealed brass. That discoloration is normal and harmless. It looks like some were annealed more than others. Annealed factory brass will have that discoloration on the shoulder and 0.25" below, rather consistently.

[Unclenick]

Inconsistently, I would say from the varying color.

Yes the discoloration is normal. Look at this image of commercially annealed brass. The color is from oxides, and they change color some with temperature and with length of exposure and how much oxygen was available to the hot surface.

[JeepHammer]

Unclenick's example is contact with hot surface annealing, usually electrical resistance making a metal 'Load' hot, brass inserted.
Makes a distinctive ring.

Most times thermochromactic paint is applied incorrectly.
Most guys hang it on the outside where direct flame heat can reach it & that often gives false readings.

Keep in mind, thermocromatic paint (color change) is often up to 100*F off stated temp. It's a crap shoot with paint, but it will get you close.

If you paint the inside of the neck, direct pinpoint flame torch at bend between shoulder & neck, you will usually get reasonable results.
As heat creeps down into shoulder bend & up into neck, timing is pretty close.

A 'Jet' type torch will often produce a 'Silver' tone on the brass.
This is zinc separating from the alloy.
'Jet' type torches produce a MUCH hotter center cone that can seriously overheat the brass locally, on the surface.
Zinc seperation is the result, and you will often see the flame change color.
Flame color change is components of the brass alloy releasing and combusting.

Electrical Induction (magnetic) heating can produce a silver tone also, usually when the brass is VERY close to the induction coils.
No flame, no flame color change, but you will sometimes see a 'Puff' of 'Smoke' as minerals & other components of the alloy vaporize.

Don't confuse this 'Puff' with a dirty or waxed case.
As you heat the case, lead, cadmium, carbon, crud will hit vapor point and make 'Smoke' (Don't breathe this!)
Spotlessly clean brass anneal without odd ball indicators showing up.

[Bytesniffer]

I used map gas and put the
Cases in my drill. I have 1/2
Inch chuck on my cordless drill.
The cases fit perfect in the drill
And I turned them slowly
For about 10 seconds.
Didn't see any turn red
On the thin necks. I just
Don't know if the stains
On the brass are normal
Or I screwed them up.

[Bytesniffer]

I did watch a video on the use of Tempilaq
To be more consistent in the heating of the
Brass.
I will have to buy a bottle

[F. Guffey]

I did watch a video on the use of Tempilaqt to be more consistent in the heating of the brass. I will have to buy a bottle.

I have 47 tubes of templagt?, I do not use them but I have them just in case. And for those that do use it I wonder; how many cases is necessary when learning to anneal before the reloader catches on?

I anneal cases like no one on any forum, I can find something I like with all of the different methods an or techniques. I can also find something I do not agree with other methods and or techniques. Reloaders, before the Internet, did not have as many problems as they do day when annealing.

Telling a reloader in the old days 'it won't work' and 'it can not be done' did not work because of their success.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

1. I used map gas

Don't use MAP gas -- too hot/too fast. Use standard propane

2. ...turned them slowly for about 10 seconds.

Turn then at medium drill speed... but time will not tell you what you need to know.

3. Didn't see any turn red...

That's good (brass is "likely" still OK... But you don't know if they were actually annealed either (See #2) above)

RECOMMEND:
For standard bottleneck cases (vice big straightwall like 45-70), I suggest getting some 450 deg Tempilaq from Brownells:

{Edit: Commercial photos need permission from the source for posting. See board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}

Paint it 1/4" (or so) below the shoulder:


Spin it (medium speed) until the paint disappears:
then dump the case on a towel (no water req'd)

Cases should looklike this after:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...34&postcount=8

[Bytesniffer]

I think this brass I put up, is all over cooked from what
Everyone has said on this forum
And the video's I have watched.
If the bottom of the case is to
Hot to the touch, is the bottom
To soft now.
Also, the annealing definitely worked,
Because now I can size brass, before
It would spring right back.
Is movement with annealed brass
From 1.638 to 1.624 to much ?
Its alright if I mess up a bunch.
I ordered 600 and when I complained
About every having a dent from a MG
He sent me 400 Wcc cases ,with
Dents from MG. Lol

[F. Guffey]

2. ...turned them slowly for about 10 seconds.

Turn then at medium drill speed... but time will not tell you what you need to know.

Mehavey, that is not true.

F. Guffey

Is movement with annealed brass from 1.638 to 1.624 to much ?

You d not have a micrometer but you managed to shorten a case .016" from the shoulder to the case head? I shorten cases for long chambers .014" when forming 280 Remington cases to 30/06. And then there is spring back or jump back and snap back. Again, consider the case has resistance to sizing and you are assuming the case is jumping back. I have fired many cases that did not recover meaning once I stretch3ed the cases they were not coming back from where they were. When it comes to dies there are not many I do not have. I have never found a case that had a memory, the confusion is caused by reloaders that assume they are good at moving the shoulder back.

When I size a case and the case has more resistance to sizing than my press can overcome the die does not make it top the shell holder. I can increases the presses' ability overcome the cases' ability to resist sizing but when I size the case it stays sized.

And again I can not move the shoulder back

on a case if the die has case body support.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

and then dump the case on a towel (no water)

I hear this from everwhere, and I wonder; WHY? I am the fan that believes if a reloader does not use water he should at least offer some rational.

I know; there is cause, because I said so, and then when all of that does not work there is ask your mother or wife.

Raising children is not easy, I ran out of commands so I started being creative; I ask my son if he would be happy with the answer 'yes'? And he responded with 'yes dad, I would be happy with the answer yes'! And then I told him if he would be happy with the answer yes he should be equally with the answer 'NO!".

And then time past and he now has three of his own, he was telling me how difficult raising children is and he ran out of answers. And then I asked him is he finally got around to asking them if they would be happy with the answer yes; and then he explained to me that one never made sense and I agreed but reminded him he ran out of answers.

F. Guffey

[mete]

Water ? wet towel?
It doesn't matter .Many confuse brass with steel . Some steels will harden when quenched in water .Cartridge brass will just cool faster when quenched. I won't quote it all again but my old Norma book suggests putting cases in a pan of water ,heating them then tipping them into the water !!!
Why do so many make things complicated ??
Take it from Norma and this metallurgist !

[T. O'Heir]

"...the varying color..." Looks like it's been tumbled. That'd explain varying colours.
MAP gas is too hot. Regular propane is all you need. And do not heat to red hot. Red hot is too hot. Heat until the colour changes and tip.
"...cases in a pan of water..." Easiest and least expensive too.

[Bytesniffer]

OK I can just use the propane
Tank. Not a problem.
But since I received my 7.62
Rifle back from Mossberg
Today, I tried my annealed
Brass that chambers in my
Savage like a breeze
Will not chamber in my 7.62
Rifle if the shoulder datum reads 1.627
1.628 - 1.630 etc. No good
If it reads 1.624,1.620 fine.
I have always been told
7.62 chamber is bigger then
308. I have so many references
Stating that ?
If I didn't spend all this money on stuff
Gearing up to processing military brass
I would through all this crap
In the garbage and just buy ammo


.

[Reloadron]

Most of the factory ammunition I have looked at dimensions on comes in around 1.629" or 1.630" and it stays pretty close to that. That includes Federal Gold Medal Match stuff and some South African NATO and also Winchester White Box. According to what has been posted the new factory ammunition would not chamber in your Mossberg?

Will not chamber in my 7.62
Rifle if the shoulder datum reads 1.627
1.628 - 1.630 etc. No good
If it reads 1.624,1.620 fine.

How are you measuring? Those numbers are awful tight by any standard. My AR 10T and my M1A are both 7.62 chambered and both will chamber the ammunition (factory) I mentioned. Likewise my bolt gun a custom Remington 700.

Ron

[Unclenick]

The wet towel came from Fred Barker's article in Precision Shooting over twenty years ago. He was trying to wipe candle flame soot off the brass with it, and get the case cool enough to handle. I suspect he also may have been concerned about heat finding its way to the head, since he did it in his molten lead method, but I've put thermocouples into primer pockets to watch the heat during flame annealing, and the heat capacity of the thicker sides and much thicker head is so high and the thermal diffusivity low enough that the critical temperature extremes never move back that far even without water cooling, so just setting them down on a surface is fine.

Back in the 1960's, Wm. C. Davis investigated the common practices at the time, commenting:

"Most reloaders excessively heat the necks, causing formation of a large-grain brass structure, extreme softness, and lack of 'spring', or ability to hold the bullets in the necks. This results from the usual advice, "Heat the case necks until red hot and then knock the cases over into water". While the neck so treated are indeed unlikely to crack, they may be so soft that they can be squeezed together between the fingers, which is a good way to judge their relative softness."

Barker's methods are still worth looking at from that standpoint, as they use low flame or molten lead temperature over a longer exposure period to achieve the desired result. He insisted a candle flame could not overheat a case when used this way, nor would the molten lead cause over-softening.

"(1) Lead Pot Method: heat lead to 725°-750°F; dip neck into powdered graphite and then holding body of case in fingertips into molten lead: when case body becomes too hot to hold slap case into wet towel; or

(2) Candle-flame method: Hold case body in fingertips, place case neck in flame and twirl case back & forth until case body is too hot to hold, then slap case into wet towel; wipe soot off neck % shoulder with dry paper towel or 0000 steel wool."

[mehavey]

Guffey: Mehavey, that is not true

.

Guff, If he has no idea what temp the brass has reached, all the "time" measurements in the world will still leave him in the dark.

He needs to know what the average time is to reach temp,
And to know temp, he needs the Tempilaq

[Marco Califo]

Why not use a non-contact thermometer?
http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ing-69465.html
No more expensive than the paint.

[F. Guffey]

Turn then at medium drill speed... but time will not tell you what you need to know.

I use rules and factors, I passed on the candle. The candle will get hot enough but it takes too long. Again, I said I have a carbon arch torch, it will puddle metal in a second because of the heat even thought I have 20 heat ranges and different diameter carbon sticks. But if I decided to use it and I cranked it up I would cut back on the time.

Again I am aware of reloaders using candles, and then there is this one reloaders that holds the case in his hand. I told him it looks like he stops his video when the case gets hot and places the case in a holder out of view. He has not said a civil words to me since, that puts me in mind of an old song from Scotland; I have lost a few friends I needed to loose and found new ones.

And then he claimed it was not a video, he claimed he took pictures and stuck them to get the effect he wanted. I hold my cases in my hand but I use methods and techniques that allow me to 'get away' with it.

F. Guffey

[firewrench044]

Bytesniffer --

There is a lot of BS on the internet about annealing
You will have to read an awful lot to recognize what is
crap and what is good info.

Candles do not get hot enough to heat the case neck fast
and even ( to avoid heat transfer to the base )

Map gas will burn too hot to control time and heat in flame
( too little time in flame )

On a properly annealed case it is normal for the base to get too
hot to touch, the base just should not be heated with torch

When I started annealing I used 2 temp. ranges of tempac
one on the inside neck to get the correct annealing temp.,the
other is used on the lower case outside to be shure that the
base does not get too hot

It takes practice and you will probably ruin a few cases
that is normal and expected( these were problem cases any way )
but when you catch on it will make a world of difference

[Metal god]

Hmm should I join the conversation ?????????
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[mete]

NO ! Just read it and laugh about obsession !

[JeepHammer]

Without quoting a bunch of magazine articles that have little or no scientific basis or provable backing...

The three basic ways cases are PRODUCTION PRODUCED,
1. Since 'High' brass (also called Cartridge Brass, 35-40% zinc) became the industry standard around WWI,
Open flame annealing, not 'Jet' nozzles, has been the industry standard for 'Common' ammunition cases.

A row of 'Fan' tips that cases are rolled past to anneal necks.
Time exposed to flame determines case temperature, no water or other 'Quenchng' has been used. (Brass doesn't 'Quench', so doing it does nothing)

2. With the advent of 'Premium' ammunition (meaning there started being 'Crap' cases produced), to get a more CONSISTANT case annealing, both in saturation and depth control to the heat treating,
Electrical Resistance heating could be more precisely controlled.

Heating is supplied by an electrical Resistance to a PRECISE temperature,
And the heated die can be trimmed to provide a precise surface area, controlling heat migration through the case body.

3. Premium brass/ammunition is now often annealed by Electrical Induction.
This is a Magnetic Process.
Electrical anealing produces a complete annealing all the way through the brass since it excites the molecules, on an atomic level.
Low power consumption, more efficient, so it's cheaper, and it's FAST, speeding production,
Combine that with being very accurate, and you can see why it's attractive to the 'Premium' & high production market.