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Old March 17, 2018, 03:32 PM   #1
njsportsman
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Depriming

I am having issues with the sizing and deprime process. I have LEE dies and I am having issues where some cases are bogging down and from what I can gather is it is bogging down when it hits the primer because it just stops dead. I have bent the deprime pin and had to get another one. I have successfully deprimed about a 150 cases but, about 30 of them are having this issue. Its like these primers are cemented in because it seems to be stopping at the primer and when I get there it stops and you can feel the tension. Like I said I bent the primer pin on the die twice now. Any suggestions or ideas of what is going on . Thanks
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Old March 17, 2018, 03:35 PM   #2
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What is the brand or head stamp on the brass that is giving you trouble?
They are not berdan primed are they?
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:03 PM   #3
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What is the brand or head stamp on the brass that is giving you trouble?
They are not berdan primed are they?[/QUOTE]

I never heard of berdan primed until now and the headstamp is something I never saw before. Hers the best picture I could get

http://s1007.photobucket.com/user/nj...tml?sort=3&o=0

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Old March 17, 2018, 04:05 PM   #4
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Shine a flash light into the case.
Tell me if you see 1 hole of 2?
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:16 PM   #5
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Looks like 2
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:19 PM   #6
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No wonder you are breaking depriming pins.
My advice is gather them all together and toss them.
Make note of that head stamp and don't bring them home anymore.
They are berdan primed.
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:21 PM   #7
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The picture wont show up for me.

But its either Burdon (sounds like it) or its military with staked spots to keep primers in place.

Burdon takes special tools to deal with and not worth it.

Military you probably can do with a dedicated decamp tool and clean up the edges with a primer pocket tool.
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:21 PM   #8
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Thank you until now I never heard of it. Do you know what manufactures to look out for?
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:30 PM   #9
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Too many to list.
When in doubt....use the flash light.
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:37 PM   #10
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Berdan Primers - No Center Hole -> Trash Can

Quote:
Do you know what manufactures to look out for?
No. That wont help because they are usually European military and could be any number of things. They will not be: LC, WW, Rem, Fed or anything else you have heard of.

Also, find a magnet and see if they stick to it. If they do, they are steel and you cannot reload them. Those are usually Russian made, where copper seems harder to come by.

When you are starting out, and learning, it is better to stick to something you are familiar with. Hang around and ask at your local rifle range and they will probably set you up for free.

Many people will recommend that you get a Lee Universal Decapper die, and deprime your brass before doing anything else. In the case of berdan primers you would be making a new hole where there wasn't one, and the brass is worthless. That is one of Lee's better products, and the pin is very strong and designed to slip before breaking. Many military cases will have crimped in primers which are harder to push out, and then, the crimp needs to be removed. But the brass is great otherwise.

You should make sure to obtain and read anyone of the good reloading manuals that details ALL the steps of the reloading process, and not just listing the load data. Lyman, Hornady, Lee and many more all publish them.
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:39 PM   #11
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Burdon primed cases are rare, 223 maybe Europe only.

What does it say on the head and are they all the same mfg?

Lyman or Lee makes a universal decaping die but it won't do Burdon.

If you got that many out then the ones you did were not burdon as there is no way you can decap those.
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
gunsrtools wrote:
When in doubt....use the flash light.
Or an otoscope - under $10.
https://www.amazon.com/Primacare-DL-...words=otoscope
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Old March 17, 2018, 04:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
RC20 wrote:
Burdon [sic] primed cases are rare, 223 maybe Europe only.
Actually the Berdan (not Burdon) priming system is the principal priming system used world-wide except for the United States, Canada and those manufacturers making Boxer primed brass cased ammunition specifically for sale into the North American market.
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Old March 17, 2018, 05:22 PM   #14
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njsportsman: Do some homework. Get one or two or three reloading manuals and read them before you go any further.

Anyone that has not heard of Berdan primed brass has to be new to reloading.
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Old March 17, 2018, 06:12 PM   #15
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There is also crimped primers which are mainly found on U.S. Military ammunition in particularly 5.56 and .308. You might be able to knock the primer out but failed to of removed the crimp. This will cause you problems attempting to prime the brass due the the brass crimp remaining in the casing. It is often found in Lake City (LC) brass. You will have to take the tedious road of drilling or hand reaming the crimp out. The easy but money wise expensive way of doing it is with a depriming tool (swage) desigend for crimped primers. One example is the Dillon Super Swage 600. Once you have used it the first time, the piece of brass can be deprimed in the future without the special tool. Do a google search. I bought one several years ago, and in my opinion it is worth every penny of its cost. It was about a hundred bucks then.
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Old March 17, 2018, 06:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Anyone that has not heard of Berdan primed brass has to be new to reloading.
This is a way of learning. I have no problems with answering the questions.
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Old March 18, 2018, 12:11 PM   #17
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"...never heard of Berdan primed..." Read your manual.
Milsurp brass will not be head stamped .223 Rem. Nor can you tell much of anything about a primer from the outside.
However, Berdan primed cases have 2 flash holes. Look in the case. Sort 'em out, make some drawer pulls and pitch the rest.
Can't make out the other part of the head stamp. Might be Israeli.
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Old March 18, 2018, 05:49 PM   #18
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NJ Sportsman,

Ignore those suggesting you should know this already. We all learn somewhere and don't need to pass their litmus tests for whether or not a question is legitimate to post or not. Some manuals do explain the riming systems, but not all. I was also disappointed by the Wikipedia article on the subject for having poor illustrations. I may undertake to correct that.

Both Boxer and Berdan primers have a metal cup with a dried pellet of priming mix in the bottom. In both instances, the cup is inserted into the primer pocket of the case. In both instances, the mixture is not rigid enough to be fired by merely striking it with a firing pin on the outside of the cup. There needs to be something to brace the mix against for the firing pin blow, such that the pin can squash the mix between itself and this support. The support is called an anvil. Where the two types of priming differ is in the way the anvil is configured.

Boxer primers have anvils built into them. The anvil is a little brass object with either three or two feet with wide pads on the ends. When the primer is seated, the anvil's feet first touch the bottom of the primer pocket and then, per specification, the cup is driven in about 0.003" further to ensure the priming mix is solidly supported over an area. That is called reconsolidation of the primer or setting its bridge. As the feet of the primer cover the outer perimeter of the floor of the primer pocket, the hot gas vent (the flash hole) is made in the middle of the pocket of a Boxer primer and the hot priming gases evolved escape between the legs of the primer and into that hole to get to the powder space in the case to ignite the powder.

Berdan primers have no anvils of their own. They are just the cup and priming mix, which is why they are less expensive to make. Instead, the anvil is formed into the brass case as a bump in the middle of the floor of the primer pocket, something that takes no more effort than forming a flat bottom primer pocket, and the Berdan primer is seated against that bump for reconsolidation. Because the bump is in the way, the gases cannot escape through ha hole in the middle of the primer pocket floor, so either two (most common) or three smaller holes are made around the perimeter of the bump at the bottom of the pocket, and the primer gases escape into the powder space of the case through these.

Obviously, when you have a decapping pin that is in the middle of your die, it will run into the inside bottom of the anvil in the Berdan system primer pocket instead of into one of the vent holes. The only common ways of removing Berdan primers are a special dual pin punch, a can opener-like device that pierces and hooks the spent primer cup out from the outside, and the use of hydraulic pressure, done by setting the cases into a holder that is open under the primer, like a shell holder, filling them with water or oil and pressing or hammering a snug-fitting dowel or metal rod down into the case mouth and hammering on it or pressing it up against a solid stop rather quickly to force the fluid through the vents and behind the primer cup to blow it out. In short, it's a bit of a nuisance to do.

When you have cleaned out the oil or dried out the water from a decapped Berdan system case, you can seat a fresh Berdan primer into it if you can buy one the right size. That's another problem. There are more different diameter Berdan primers than there are Boxer primers for common small arms cartridges, so you have to get the right one.

It is all very slow work, and unless you have a rare chambering for which no boxer primer cases are available, it hardly seems worth the extra bother.

The cases you have are most likely Eastern European or Russian. I say that because, being marked .223 Rem instead of 5.56 means it was not military ammunition, but it is not uncommon for such cases with Berdan priming to be turned out on contract by a factory in one of those countries, as they do a lot of such contracting and they can help keep costs down using Berdan priming.

Interestingly, Berdan priming is a U.S. invention and Boxer priming is a British invention. How we decided to prefer their system and they, ours, I don't know the history of.
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Old March 19, 2018, 04:27 PM   #19
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I reconditioned some military surplus Polish P-64 9mm Makarov pistols a few years ago. They used commie-bloc 9 Mak ammo which is Berdan primed. Berdan is very popular in the commie-bloc nations. Steel cased ammo.

One problem (not for me) is that folks go to a place like Academy Sports and Outdoors and pick up some ammo that says 9mm. They don't notice it says 'Berdan Primed" and have steel cases. They take their 9mm pistol to the range and can't figure why the ammo they bought won't work.

The guy at the range 'splains it to them, sells them some 9mm ammo and the people generally just leave the 9 Mak ammo at the desk.

The guys at the range know I have all these Makarov pistols and give me the 9 Mak ammo!!!
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Old March 20, 2018, 12:52 PM   #20
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Yes. Another member posted a description of working in a gun store when someone who, it turned out, actually wanted 7 mm Remington cartridges but asked for "7 mm bullets". The member reached over to the shelf and got a box of Hornady 7 mm bullets for him.

This SAAMI publication is useful to those identifying ammunition compatibility problems.
http://saami.org/specifications_and_...mbinations.pdf
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Old March 20, 2018, 05:18 PM   #21
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"I have LEE dies"

Yep, there is your problem. Toss that LEE stuff and go RCBS. (Now watch me get tossed for saying it!)
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Old March 20, 2018, 05:43 PM   #22
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jamaica: Consider yourself admonished. Poor guys has enough on his plate.

Unclenick: That is about as convoluted a technical explanation (accurate of course) of the two system I can imagine. I don't think you have de-conflicted things!

I would simplify that a great deal. Something to the affect.

Anvil is fixed in the primer pocket hole of Berden (grin) brass, you can't put a decapping pin through it (various ways to deal with)

A Boxer Primer has the anvil built right into the primer you can see when you look into it.
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Old March 20, 2018, 09:32 PM   #23
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Even simpler, if the case has one hole in the center of the primer pocket, its Boxer primed. More than one hole (and offset from the center) its Berdan primed, and NOT reloadable with common US components and methods.

The ironic thing is that the Berdan system was invented by an American, but became the standard used in Europe, and the Boxer system was invented by a European (English I think) and became the standard used in the US.

Shine a light into a fired case, and see how many flash holes there are.
Since you've done 150 and only bent one pin, I'd think they were boxer primed, and you problem is some of the cases could have offcenter flashholes, or holes that are smaller than your decapping pin.

Generally I'm not a fan of LEE products, but they make a decapping set that is a punch and base and very rugged. And if you bend or break it, Lee will replace it. If decapping military brass for the first time, get and use the punch and a hammer, and decap the case. Slow and tedious, but absolutely effective. Then run it through the sizer die. Then remove the primer pocket crimp (either an annular ring or the stab type crimp) normally used on military ammo by either swaging or reaming the pocket. Doesn't have to move/remove much metal just enough to allow a new primer to be seated.
(this is not the same thing as "primer pocket uniforming", though there are tools to do both)

The Lee decapper and base sets come in 2 sizes, one for .30, the other for .22 calibers. I've been using the .30 cal one since the 70s, and while the head of the shaft has become somewhat mushroomed from hammer blows, the decapping pin is just as perfect as it was when brand new.

Takes a little practice, but you'll quickly get the feel for when the pin enters the flashole, then a few wacks and tis done! Do have something handy to clean up the ash with, though...
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Old March 20, 2018, 11:01 PM   #24
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Lee Universal Decapper Die

The Lee universal decapper die is also an excellent Lee product that is quicker and more convenient to use. I use it in a Lee handpress (another very useful Lee product), and can deprime while watching TV. The Lee universal decapper die never touches the brass, except for the very strong pin. This makes it useful for depriming just fired brass, before cleaning the brass. Once the primers are out, I wash the brass, which then drains better with the primers removed before sizing.
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Old March 21, 2018, 10:09 AM   #25
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Nuttin' wrong with your Lee dies and your set will do everything necessary to get good, safe, accurate ammo. Beware of the "Lee Haters" on forums as you'll get skewed opinions of the manufacturer. I have 10 Lee sets and RCBS, Redding and Pacific dies and have no more problems with Lee than any other manufacturers.

Perhaps a bit of reading/study would help answer your questions. A copy of The ABCs of Reloading will tell you how to reload, explain the components (primers included) and the equipment used. Berdan military primed cases today are largely steel and the less expensive ammo available. Neither (Berdan or steel) should be reloaded by a new reloader (they can be reloaded but not really the easiest. Brass has been used over 100 years and is the best metal for cartridges). When starting remember K.I.S.S.

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun...
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