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Old March 11, 2018, 09:27 PM   #51
GunFickle
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A double action/single action hammer fired like a Beretta PX4 seems pretty safe when carried with the hammer down in double action mode. First shot is a long stiff double action and the remaining shots are a short crisp single action.
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Old March 11, 2018, 09:37 PM   #52
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cocked and locked scares the bejesus out of me. My absolute first choice is DA/SA and a close second is DAO.
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Old March 12, 2018, 08:13 AM   #53
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You have to carry the way your most comfortable with . Just know what to do when you draw, I carry with a loaded magazine no round in the chamber hammer down . Safest way to carry slowest way to use . That's now , fine for me . Carrying in condition 3 is better then not carrying , giving you some chance to help someone or yourself in a dangerous situation . If your not comfortable with your type of carry you'll leave the weapon home.

Chris

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Old March 12, 2018, 08:26 AM   #54
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I'd rather trust a cocked, and locked 1911 style pistol in a good holster than that cheap Cordura holster with a cocked and locked 1911 style pistol in it!
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Old March 12, 2018, 10:38 AM   #55
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"I know that’s what they like to say. But, there’s enough stored energy to fire. I tried it. Took the firing pin safety out, loaded a primed case. Used an inspection cover. Reached in with a dental pick. Pushed the cruciform down. Gun fired."

That's good to know. Thank you for the info.
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Old March 12, 2018, 09:30 PM   #56
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You are welcome. It’s about 70% stored energy. It may not pop a primer every time. But, it did the three times I tried it.

Same with a Kahr. (That surprised me due to the length of the trigger pull).

A S&W M&P is literally a trap door holding the striker back.

There’s nothing wrong with a striker fired gun. But, the marketing that they are so much safer than cocked and locked is a little misleading.

I first became curious when I heard about match Glocks getting triggers in the sub 3 pound class...the trigger was, obviously, adding very little energy to the striker as a 3 pound 1911 was considered a very light trigger and, that’s with a fully cocked hammer.
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Old March 13, 2018, 06:27 AM   #57
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Another thanks to SGT127 for his informative Glock stored-energy experiment. I believe you are correct in saying "Glocks, M&P’s and all the majority of other striker fired guns are cocked and unlocked pistols."

This supports OhioGuy's post (#21 on this thread) and my belief that carrying a Glock is the same as carrying a Sig DA/SA cocked and with a round in the chamber.
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Old March 13, 2018, 06:31 AM   #58
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Another thanks to SGT127 for his informative Glock stored-energy experiment. I believe you are correct in saying "Glocks, M&P’s and all the majority of other striker fired guns are cocked and unlocked pistols."
Can we start a new thread about this? I am curious to see what the forum says and I assume people looking there are thinking 1911 not striker fired. I think this is a really interesting topic.

So essentially they are cocked and unlocked but have a safety pin preventing it from firing. So if you had a bunk safety pin, it was loose, etc. the gun would from being dropped?

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Old March 13, 2018, 11:10 AM   #59
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Glocks have a firing pin safety and the little nub on the trigger face. It's an effective design and drop safe. Any problems I have heard about were normally associated with reholstering. The back strap on the holster would get into the trigger guard and when pushed down into holster the pistol would fire.
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Old March 13, 2018, 07:22 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kymasabe
cocked and locked scares the bejesus out of me. My absolute first choice is DA/SA and a close second is DAO.
Can you explain what is scary about c&l?


Also, what kind of DA/SA split times are you seeing?
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Old March 13, 2018, 07:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by kymasabe View Post
cocked and locked scares the bejesus out of me. My absolute first choice is DA/SA and a close second is DAO.


Looking

LOL
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Old March 13, 2018, 08:18 PM   #62
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A well designed cocked and locked pistol doesn't bother me at all. Specifically BHP and 1911. A striker fired pistol with no safety in a secure holster doesn't bother me at all. I'd much prefer either to a DA/SA design.

I know that technically most striker fired pistols are DAO. But in reality the trigger pull weight is pretty much on par with most out of the box 1911's.

Glocks and 1911's are my preferred pistols and used properly I feel both are safe. But at the same time I think a 1911 style safety on the striker fired pistols would be a good idea. I really like the M&P's with safety and the Ruger American pistol looks good too. There are probably others, but those 2 are the ones I've handled.

It is once the gun is out of the holster that there are times when it would be nice to have an extra step to prevent the gun from firing.
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Old March 15, 2018, 05:58 AM   #63
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It's interesting how so many only dissect the "mechanical" aspects of physically drawing your concealed pistol. I've attended an excellent CC personal defense instructional course that not only covered the "physical" aspects but also the "mental" aspects of a potential life threatening encounter. The average deadly encounter is estimated at about 8-12 ft. Almost any proficient shooter can hit center mass on a draw at that distance , but the far more important question is can you draw and hit center mass in an elevated stress and adrenalin rushed situation ? Most of you will quickly comment "ABSOLUTELY" even though 99% of us have yet to have experienced this exact situation. In my CC defense class we were all tasked with holding our hands submerged in ice water for about 30 seconds, then tasked with drawing and firing your (empty) pistol, and performing a mag change. Half the class fumbled significantly. The ice water replicates an adrenalin rush which comes uncontrollably from a high stress situation. This is where you as a well trained responsible CC needs to learn to control. One needs to identify the progressive levels of a potential deadly encounter. The class I took was a real eye opener. I have a Beretta Nano as my carry weapon. It has no safety mechanisms other than a Glock style trigger tang safety. No doubt if i'm ever forced into a deadly situation I WILL be stressed and I hope to maintain control and be able to defend myself. Do I know this for certain ? No , but at least I have had the comfort of defense training.
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Old March 15, 2018, 10:10 AM   #64
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The average deadly encounter is estimated at about 8-12 ft. Almost any proficient shooter can hit center mass on a draw at that distance , but the far more important question is can you draw and hit center mass in an elevated stress and adrenalin rushed situation ?
It appears that you have in mind an assailant who is standing still.

Consider an attacker moving at 15 feet per second.
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Old March 15, 2018, 01:22 PM   #65
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It is once the gun is out of the holster that there are times when it would be nice to have an extra step to prevent the gun from firing.
They do. It's the trigger dingle. nothing is supposed to be touching it until you shoot.
Hated by many, my Springfield XD40 Sub Compact does also have another somewhat passive safety that is only released by holding the gun...The 1911 style grip safety. Odd how few object to it in the Browning design.
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Old March 15, 2018, 01:41 PM   #66
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Training is the most important thing , if your not being confronted every week like a LE officer your training will fade . How many time have you practice CPR . You know what to do but can you perform the task automatically under pressure. Just do the best you can . Bad things happen much faster then good for some reason. Be Well , Be Ready and Be Safe.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:17 PM   #67
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The only effective difference is that the stick trigger pull is typically in the 6-7lb range. Walther's are an exception (PPQ s). DA/SAs typically have a lighter pull and shorter pull on the SA side.

Carrying a 3lb pull in whatever form is usually considered bad for your average Joe. I have a sub 3 for my competition pistol but would not be comfortable carrying that. I am ok carrying a 6lber though.

Additional note with proper training and good practice one can ride a 1911 style safety out of the holster. This allows safety while holstered but no issue when drawing.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by cw308 View Post
Training is the most important thing , if your not being confronted every week like a LE officer your training will fade . How many time have you practice CPR . You know what to do but can you perform the task automatically under pressure. Just do the best you can . Bad things happen much faster then good for some reason. Be Well , Be Ready and Be Safe.
Er... You don't need to be in a life or death struggle weekly. Just practice dry fire drawing and shooting a close target 20-50 times a week.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:25 PM   #69
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It is once the gun is out of the holster that there are times when it would be nice to have an extra step to prevent the gun from firing.
But there are other times when it wouldn't be very "nice" at all.

One well regarded trainer recommends not having a gun that requires an extra step that is not part of grasping the gun to fire the gun.

His trainers observe large numbers of students firing large numbers of rounds.

The 1911 is a slight variation: the thumb goes onto the top of the safety when the gun is presented, and the trigger pull is short and light.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:32 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
But there are other times when it wouldn't be very "nice" at all.

One well regarded trainer recommends not having a gun that requires an extra step that is not part of grasping the gun to fire the gun.

His trainers observe large numbers of students firing large numbers of rounds.

The 1911 is a slight variation: the thumb goes onto the top of the safety when the gun is presented, and the trigger pull is short and light.
That's an advantage for a 1911 style safety. Other safeties are not designed like that and are problematic.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:48 PM   #71
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zincwarrior
Thanks for.the advise , makes things simple , that's untill some one pops a blown up paper bag in back of you an you go blank.
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Old March 15, 2018, 02:58 PM   #72
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Safest way to carry slowest way to use .
True, but only if safety is measured only in terms the likelihood of an unwanted discharge, and that would make not carrying a gun at all a better idea.

Quote:
That's now , fine for me .
Fine, IF.
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Old March 15, 2018, 03:06 PM   #73
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I think so long as the safety mechanism is positive and had a tactile and audible "click" there is nothing wrong with carrying a cocked and locked single action pistol.

Now I have had some single actions like my old BHP that had a mushy, somewhat loose safety without such a positive engagement, and didn't feel so safe with that'n... probably needed a new bearing or whatever.
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Old March 16, 2018, 12:01 AM   #74
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"Hated my many, my Springfield XD40 Sub Compact does also have another somewhat passive safety that is only released by holding the gun...The 1911 style grip safety. Odd how few object to it in the Browning design."

I'm an old 1911 guy,so the grip safety on the XD doesn't bother me at all. Heck, they could add a thumb safety and I would be tickled.
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Old March 16, 2018, 08:40 AM   #75
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I used to carry my CZ-85b cocked and locked. I had the safety come off while I was carrying it a couple times.

My holster probably just got worn out, but I have carried it DA since then. Actually I carry all my guns in double action. If you practice, you can shoot DA just fine.

Do what suits you. Try a different holster. All Kydex is good. YMMV.

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