Loads misfire

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 10:51 AM

I loaded two different batches (25 each) of .223 and used them yesterday.

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/67.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/68.jpg

As you can see the first batch, 4 did not fire. The primer did get struck but nothing. The second batch all fired no problem.

Is this something than can happen? May I have done something to cause this, but if so than the others should not have fired as well. Not saying its a normal but rather situations such as this can happen?

I had factory ammo 30-06 Remington misfire as well. A total of three. Two people next to me had 1 factory ammo misfire as well (ar15). Don't know brand or caliber.

Ben Dover · September 10, 2018, 10:55 AM

You might have a weak hammer spring. Or possibly a short firing pin.

I've never seen a short pin on an AR-15, but I had two of them on Ruger Minis.

hounddawg · September 10, 2018, 11:02 AM

did you put powder in? Pull the bullets and deprime them seperatly to make sure to check those 4 primers fired. Only misfires I ever had was due to me not putting powder in and one instance where a stainless pin from cleaning stuck in a Palma small style flash hole. I have never had a primer fail to fire but it could just be bad primers. If it continues have a gunsmith check the gun out for protrusion and spring tension

Gary Wells · September 10, 2018, 11:10 AM

I think that Ben Dover might have nailed it. Either it's the light reflection, or camera angle, but I can see a difference in the firing pin strike on the lower right rounds. The other primers appear to have less depth to them. Just my opinion.

mikld · September 10, 2018, 11:49 AM

Ninety percent of FTF with new reloaders is improperly seated primers. For primers to fire 100%, all must be seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket. I have had less than a half dozen "bad" primers in 30+ years of reloading, it's amazing how many billions are made and how many bad ones get to the public.

I can't tell from the pics how deep the firing pin indents are so there may be a problem there...

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 11:54 AM

I apologize in advanced... its for a Savage 12FV 223. Was referencing the other two people as they fired factory ammo that at least had 1 misfire for them. Plus I had 3 misfires on Savage Model 111 30-06.

Well I am positive I put powder... but will pull them today to see if they have powder in them. Could "contamination" from possibly not cleaning well be a culprit also? Tumbled with crushed walnut.

condor bravo · September 10, 2018, 12:44 PM

Re mikld
Many misfires are due to primers not completely seated in primer pockets. Did you try to fire them a second or even a third time? If they fired then, that would be an indication of primers not completely seated.

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 12:47 PM

I did not try to fire them again. Just tried once and put them aside.

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 12:48 PM

Later today I will try and take pictures of a different angle to see if it shows any improper seating. If that would help.

condor bravo · September 10, 2018, 01:28 PM

The next time out try firing the misfires again and, if they fire, will likely indicate improper seating. The initial firing pin strike seats the primer but is cushioned and does not fire. The next strike can then fire the primer.

Gary Wells · September 10, 2018, 01:35 PM

Even if there wasn't any powder I would think that he would have heard the primer go off .
Also with no powder and even with only a primer going off, wouldn't the primer alone send the bullet partially down the chamber. Also, I a pistol guy, not a rifle shooter.

F. Guffey · September 10, 2018, 02:08 PM

Well? You made it easy on me; the 4 fail to fire are in the box with the bullets up. The busy end of the case is the end with the primer. I have rifle with killer firing pins; my rifles with killer firing pins have crushed primers that have been struck 7 times with 4 different rifles.

With my killer firing pins I do not have punched primers.

F. Guffey

wild willy · September 10, 2018, 02:12 PM

Kinda hard to see but some of your primers look high in your pictures but after firing hard to tell.Do you have any unfired pictures?

Chainsaw. · September 10, 2018, 02:43 PM

How are you priming?

How did you adjust your sizing die?

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 03:02 PM

Maybe I should not remove the bullets of three of those 4... and just remove 1 of them to see if powder is in there.

Then take those 3 back to range and see if it fires again. Just as you guys mentioned, to verify if primers weren't seated properly.

I do have some brass with primers in them. Will also take a picture of those.

I used RCBS hand priming tool.

Reason for bullets upward was because the bullets downward were wobbling too much.

hounddawg · September 10, 2018, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Even if there wasn't any powder I would think that he would have heard the primer go off .
Also with no powder and even with only a primer going off, wouldn't the primer alone send the bullet partially down the chamber. Also, I a pistol guy, not a rifle shooter.

from my experience no. I missed a couple of powders when I used a progressive to load AR fodder. Bullet did not budge from the case and all I heard was click. Just the way I do things though is that upon returning from the range I pulled the bullets, found no powder, deprimed and saw that the primers had fired. Lesson learned, buy a powder cop die and use it.

When I had the pin blocking I had powder, could not deprime because I could see a cleaning pin was lodged in the flash hole so I tossed the case. Lesson learned, always check the flash hole before priming especially if you are using cases with under sized flash holes

I seriously doubt a piece of corn cob could survive the heat from a primer and if the primers on his did not detonate then get a Wolf replacement spring for 12 bucks or so and find a video on how to replace it.

I replace the stock springs with Wolfs on all my Savages as a matter of course and after 1000 firings replace them again. A weak firing pin spring can play hell with your velocity SD's, cause cratering of the primers, and cause misfires

firing pin protrusion is easy to check using a standard set of calipers. Youtube will show you the way

Rangerrich99 · September 10, 2018, 03:15 PM

When I first began loading .223 I had a similar issue a couple different times. For me it was always I forgot to drop powder in those particular cases. If I were you, I'd disassemble those four cartridges and check for powder. Even if there's powder in there, you might discover that the powder's been contaminated in some way.

If there's no powder, you can verify that the primer fired by checking for scorching on the base of the projectile. I never had a projectile enter the barrel with one of those powder-free bullets; they did move forward a few millimeters, but that was it.

The solve for me was to modify my loading procedure to be able to multiply verify the case was charged during the reloading process.

gwpercle · September 10, 2018, 04:23 PM

The most common cause of a primer not igniting is the primer has not been seated completely , bottomed out , in the primer pocket.
Seat the primers until they hit the bottom of the pocket, all the way down .
This will eliminate a lot of misfires.
Gary

Ben Dover · September 10, 2018, 04:36 PM

Just a thought here. Replace your hand priming tool with an RCBS bench mounted tool and I'll betcha any priming problems will go away.

With the bench tool you can "feel" the primer bottom out in the pocket.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4nShKxk7Gs

higgite · September 10, 2018, 05:59 PM

When primers aren’t fully seated, sometimes the firing pin will finish seating them and also ignite them. Other times the firing pin will seat them but not ignite them. Depends on how far a particular primer is from being properly seated when the firing pin strikes it. If it’s the latter case, the firing pin strike is usually a light dimple when compared to a primer that was properly seated before the firing pin struck it. Some of your primer strikes look light in the photos. That could also be from a weak firing pin spring. Or gunk in the firing pin channel. In any case, especially since you didn’t restrike them, the lightly dimpled ones MAY still be live, so treat them accordingly until you verify it one way or the other. I’d leave them as is and try them on the next range trip to see if a restrike ignites them.

BTW, did you inspect your reloads to see if the primers were seated flush or deeper in the primer pocket?

condor bravo · September 10, 2018, 06:07 PM

Yes definitely, what Ben refers to is the RCBS Automatic Bench Priming Tool to replace the hand tool. Available from Midway USA, their product number 457599, but a little expensive as most reloading tools are. But this should be a must tool for priming and has primer tubes for both large and small primes. It takes RCBS type shell holders for the various calibers. That will take care of the priming problems.

And make it a point to retry the misfires as mentioned earlier. My bet is that they will fire on the second firing pin strike since the primers are now probably well seated.

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 08:34 PM

ninosdemente · September 10, 2018, 08:37 PM

Guess will buy now since it is on sale...

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/45...BoCwYEQAvD_BwE

Anyone wants to buy a hand priming tool? Lol.

Gary Wells · September 10, 2018, 11:25 PM

Some of those primers do not look level to the case head. Some have indentations that should not be there. Different primer heights, too.

Mule · September 10, 2018, 11:46 PM

In my experience, a dirty primer pocket can keep the primer from fully seating.
Love my pin tumbler.

September 10, 2018, 10:51 AM	#1
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Loads misfire I loaded two different batches (25 each) of .223 and used them yesterday. http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/67.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/68.jpg As you can see the first batch, 4 did not fire. The primer did get struck but nothing. The second batch all fired no problem. Is this something than can happen? May I have done something to cause this, but if so than the others should not have fired as well. Not saying its a normal but rather situations such as this can happen? I had factory ammo 30-06 Remington misfire as well. A total of three. Two people next to me had 1 factory ammo misfire as well (ar15). Don't know brand or caliber.

September 10, 2018, 10:55 AM	#2
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	You might have a weak hammer spring. Or possibly a short firing pin. I've never seen a short pin on an AR-15, but I had two of them on Ruger Minis. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

September 10, 2018, 11:02 AM	#3
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	did you put powder in? Pull the bullets and deprime them seperatly to make sure to check those 4 primers fired. Only misfires I ever had was due to me not putting powder in and one instance where a stainless pin from cleaning stuck in a Palma small style flash hole. I have never had a primer fail to fire but it could just be bad primers. If it continues have a gunsmith check the gun out for protrusion and spring tension __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

September 10, 2018, 11:49 AM	#5
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Ninety percent of FTF with new reloaders is improperly seated primers. For primers to fire 100%, all must be seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket. I have had less than a half dozen "bad" primers in 30+ years of reloading, it's amazing how many billions are made and how many bad ones get to the public. I can't tell from the pics how deep the firing pin indents are so there may be a problem there... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

September 10, 2018, 12:44 PM	#7
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Re mikld Many misfires are due to primers not completely seated in primer pockets. Did you try to fire them a second or even a third time? If they fired then, that would be an indication of primers not completely seated. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

September 10, 2018, 11:10 AM	#4
Gary Wells Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Posts: 180	I think that Ben Dover might have nailed it. Either it's the light reflection, or camera angle, but I can see a difference in the firing pin strike on the lower right rounds. The other primers appear to have less depth to them. Just my opinion.

September 10, 2018, 11:54 AM	#6
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I apologize in advanced... its for a Savage 12FV 223. Was referencing the other two people as they fired factory ammo that at least had 1 misfire for them. Plus I had 3 misfires on Savage Model 111 30-06. Well I am positive I put powder... but will pull them today to see if they have powder in them. Could "contamination" from possibly not cleaning well be a culprit also? Tumbled with crushed walnut.

September 10, 2018, 12:47 PM	#8
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I did not try to fire them again. Just tried once and put them aside.

September 10, 2018, 12:48 PM	#9
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Later today I will try and take pictures of a different angle to see if it shows any improper seating. If that would help.

September 10, 2018, 01:28 PM	#10
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	The next time out try firing the misfires again and, if they fire, will likely indicate improper seating. The initial firing pin strike seats the primer but is cushioned and does not fire. The next strike can then fire the primer. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; September 10, 2018 at 01:52 PM.

September 10, 2018, 01:35 PM	#11
Gary Wells Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Posts: 180	Even if there wasn't any powder I would think that he would have heard the primer go off . Also with no powder and even with only a primer going off, wouldn't the primer alone send the bullet partially down the chamber. Also, I a pistol guy, not a rifle shooter.

September 10, 2018, 02:08 PM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Well? You made it easy on me; the 4 fail to fire are in the box with the bullets up. The busy end of the case is the end with the primer. I have rifle with killer firing pins; my rifles with killer firing pins have crushed primers that have been struck 7 times with 4 different rifles. With my killer firing pins I do not have punched primers. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; September 10, 2018 at 02:29 PM.

September 10, 2018, 02:12 PM	#13
wild willy Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2006 Posts: 404	Kinda hard to see but some of your primers look high in your pictures but after firing hard to tell.Do you have any unfired pictures?

September 10, 2018, 02:43 PM	#14
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	How are you priming? How did you adjust your sizing die? __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

September 10, 2018, 03:02 PM	#15
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Maybe I should not remove the bullets of three of those 4... and just remove 1 of them to see if powder is in there. Then take those 3 back to range and see if it fires again. Just as you guys mentioned, to verify if primers weren't seated properly. I do have some brass with primers in them. Will also take a picture of those. I used RCBS hand priming tool. Reason for bullets upward was because the bullets downward were wobbling too much.

September 10, 2018, 03:15 PM	#17
Rangerrich99 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Kinda near Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,254	When I first began loading .223 I had a similar issue a couple different times. For me it was always I forgot to drop powder in those particular cases. If I were you, I'd disassemble those four cartridges and check for powder. Even if there's powder in there, you might discover that the powder's been contaminated in some way. If there's no powder, you can verify that the primer fired by checking for scorching on the base of the projectile. I never had a projectile enter the barrel with one of those powder-free bullets; they did move forward a few millimeters, but that was it. The solve for me was to modify my loading procedure to be able to multiply verify the case was charged during the reloading process.

September 10, 2018, 04:23 PM	#18
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	The most common cause of a primer not igniting is the primer has not been seated completely , bottomed out , in the primer pocket. Seat the primers until they hit the bottom of the pocket, all the way down . This will eliminate a lot of misfires. Gary

September 10, 2018, 04:36 PM	#19
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	Just a thought here. Replace your hand priming tool with an RCBS bench mounted tool and I'll betcha any priming problems will go away. With the bench tool you can "feel" the primer bottom out in the pocket. www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4nShKxk7Gs __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

September 10, 2018, 05:59 PM	#20
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	When primers aren’t fully seated, sometimes the firing pin will finish seating them and also ignite them. Other times the firing pin will seat them but not ignite them. Depends on how far a particular primer is from being properly seated when the firing pin strikes it. If it’s the latter case, the firing pin strike is usually a light dimple when compared to a primer that was properly seated before the firing pin struck it. Some of your primer strikes look light in the photos. That could also be from a weak firing pin spring. Or gunk in the firing pin channel. In any case, especially since you didn’t restrike them, the lightly dimpled ones MAY still be live, so treat them accordingly until you verify it one way or the other. I’d leave them as is and try them on the next range trip to see if a restrike ignites them. BTW, did you inspect your reloads to see if the primers were seated flush or deeper in the primer pocket?

September 10, 2018, 06:07 PM	#21
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Yes definitely, what Ben refers to is the RCBS Automatic Bench Priming Tool to replace the hand tool. Available from Midway USA, their product number 457599, but a little expensive as most reloading tools are. But this should be a must tool for priming and has primer tubes for both large and small primes. It takes RCBS type shell holders for the various calibers. That will take care of the priming problems. And make it a point to retry the misfires as mentioned earlier. My bet is that they will fire on the second firing pin strike since the primers are now probably well seated. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

September 10, 2018, 08:34 PM	#22
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I pulled one of the bullets and yes it did have powder. So here are some pictures of the non fired brass... http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/69.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/70.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/71.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/72.jpg Here are the fired brass... http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/73.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/74.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/75.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/76.jpg Here are when I use the hand priming tool... http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/77.jpg If I go all the way... http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/78.jpg then I get this... http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/79.jpg (between 3 and R/bottom right) http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/80.jpg (bottom left) http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/81.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/82.jpg So I don't push all the way. I'll try and feel when it gives some resistance then I just give it another push. The 4 misfires... http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/83.jpg http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/84.jpg

September 10, 2018, 08:37 PM	#23
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Guess will buy now since it is on sale... https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/45...BoCwYEQAvD_BwE Anyone wants to buy a hand priming tool? Lol.

September 10, 2018, 11:25 PM	#24
Gary Wells Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Posts: 180	Some of those primers do not look level to the case head. Some have indentations that should not be there. Different primer heights, too.

September 10, 2018, 11:46 PM	#25
Mule Member Join Date: October 16, 2002 Location: Franklin County Missouri Posts: 84	In my experience, a dirty primer pocket can keep the primer from fully seating. Love my pin tumbler. __________________ Shoot Safe! Shoot Often!