Which .45 for Bullseye?

mutski · November 24, 2007, 02:52 AM

What's a good .45 for Bulleye competition? Anyone have opinions about Les Baer or Rock River? What model do you like?

papa shooter · November 24, 2007, 07:45 AM

I shot a Colt National Match for bullseye. They are still avaliable on auction sights as well as gun shows. They will cost you around $1200.00-$1500.00 if you find one in good shape. Good luck with this question. I feel you will get a different opinion from every poster from here on out.

Good Shooting
Papa

4EVERM-14 · November 25, 2007, 06:10 PM

I got to shoot a Rock River Bullseye model. Very nice . If I had the money it would be high on my list.

TNT_Shooter · November 25, 2007, 08:13 PM

I shoot a David Sams custom 45 built on a Caspian frame and slide. He does exceptional work. It takes about a year to get the gun back once you place your order. His website is http://samscustomgunworksusa.com

Good luck!

TNT

10s&Xs · November 26, 2007, 04:56 PM

It's definitely a subjective topic, but I bought a slightly used Les Baer bullseye wadcutter at the beginning of the year, and it's been great. Would definitely recommend it.

Tim R · November 27, 2007, 03:05 PM

http://www.champchoice.com/detail.php?item=C45HB

I have not shot one of these but you can be assured it would be legal for Bulls Eye.

Old Gaffer · November 27, 2007, 04:09 PM

I'm quite new to the BE game, and I've only shot three 2700's - all with borrowed guns.

I shoot in the high 600's with the Les Baer's, low 600's with an almost-stock Colt (trigger job and red dot only - not accurized).

When I hit the lottery, I'm most likely going with the Les Baer, though I've heard much good about the Rock River too. Oh yeah, and anything built by Masaki or Curtis. Jump over here http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/ and have a look through the archives. You might just want to subscribe too.

FYI, the only thing I've heard about Kimbers is from a Master shooter - he tells me that a lot of the time when a shooter is having .45 problems, it's a Kimber gun. This is not data - it's hearsay, so grab the salt shake and take a grain or two.

Good luck with your search.

Rob

Isabel1130 · November 27, 2007, 10:53 PM

I have both a .45 wadcutter and a Beretta 9mm for LEG matches on order.

mutski · November 28, 2007, 12:48 AM

I talked to Les Baer today - 12-16 week wait for a new gun. Rock River said 406 months. Sigh. Maybe used LB from Gunbroker.com?

softmentor · November 28, 2007, 01:59 AM

The HK Combat with match trigger is worth looking at. Reduced recoil, awesome reliability, and highly accurate. There's an add for it running in the latest issue of Frontsite Magazine.

Powderman · November 28, 2007, 02:21 AM

For an entry level gun that you can shoot right now, I'd go for a Baer. You can find them on the shelves on occasion.

As one poster mentioned already, check out the Bullseye List. It is an e-mail list, you can subscribe easily by going to www.bullseyepistol.com.

One poster mentioned HK. First of all, I love HK handguns; one of the worst moves I've ever made was trading off a USP40.

That being said, even though an HK is combat accurate, it is not bullseye/conventional pistol accurate.

A good bullseye pistol (wadcutter or ball) will consistently deliver 1 1/2 inch to 2 inch groups at 50 yards. Yes, I meant YARDS, not feet, and these are minimum five round groups. The minimum standard acceptable is a 3 inch group at 50 yards. Check out the articles at the site mentioned above for a detailed explanation into why you want a pistol that shoots this well.

At the same time, prepare to make an investment into your pistol. You will in all probability want a dot sight for your wadcutter gun; the best on the market that is affordable is the Ultra Dot.

To get the most from your bullseye pistol, there is a good chance that you will want a custom grip. There are some excellent options; for semi custom grips that will help, take a look at Vitarbo grips, or some of the excellent offerings of Karl Nill (Nill grips).

By far, the best (IMHO) custom grip manufacturer is Randall Fung. Take a look at his website. He makes true custom grips from scratch, built to fit you.

Do you reload? Prepare to start if you don't; unless you have a rather liquid source of disposable cash, centerfire match handgun ammo is EXPENSIVE. The standard for wad guns is Federal GM Match, 185 grain SWC ammo--and it runs about $40.00 per box! Casting your own bullets will save even more money.

This is just the tip of the iceberg--you also need a good accurate and dependable .22 pistol, at a minimum. If you want to go Distinguished, you'll need a dedicated ball gun too--plus there are other items that will make your life a lot easier on the firing line.

My personal bullseye kit consists of a .22 with one backup gun (Hammerli 280, backup is a Marvel conversion on a 1911 frame), a SW M52-1 for centerfire, and a custom 1911 wadcutter gun built by Ed Masaki for the .45 stage. My hardball gun was also built by Ed Masaki, and also serves as a backup gun for the wadcutter gun. I cast my bullets from pure range scrap

; I use the 200 gr. HG 68 LSWC, sized to .452, on top of 3.9 of Clays for my wadcutter gun. It saves a LOT of money.

The most important part of prep for a BE match is practice--and lots of it! Shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.

Best of luck in your quest. Bullseye is, to me, the most challenging type of handgun competition--and I enjoy it immensely! See you on the firing line!

mutski · November 29, 2007, 03:18 AM

I called Les Baer, found out that I must choose either scope or iron sights - can't switch back and for like I do with my .22, since the screws that hold the mount onto the frame are stress points - change back and forth and get cracks. Also, get the mount for a scope, you get no iron sights. That makes it a difficult choice; I'd like to be able to switch back and forth. My eyes are old, I certainly see the red dot better. On the other hand, I've shot some pretty good targets with .38s from a revolver with iron sights.

4EVERM-14 · November 30, 2007, 04:55 PM

How about this idea.
Get the Hardball gun. It can switch to wadcutter by changing the recoil spring plus a grip type scope mount. It may not be the best set up but you get dual purpose.

bluetopper · December 5, 2007, 03:46 PM

I've been looking at an STI Rangemaster or Targetmaster. Just seen them on the net, but not in person.
Do any of you have an opinion of these?

Powderman · December 5, 2007, 05:38 PM

Parisite:

It has been said that the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The true test to see if a gun is good to go for Bullseye competition is to test it out. Ten rounds in a Ransom rest will tell the tale.

Bottom line--if it won't hold 3 inches, MAXIMUM, at 50 measured yards, it is not suitable for Bullseye shooting. You can get it accurized, if you wish.

Your best bet might be to contact the manufacture, and ask some questions. Ask: how accurate the pistols are, do they do custom work, can they guarantee accuracy, price, etc.

bluetopper · December 5, 2007, 06:43 PM

Powderman you are exactly right. It's just that no one will let you test fire for accuracy a brand new gun. I had 90% made up my mind to purchase an STI Rangemaster 45 till I started reading this thread today and found the link to champchoice with the Les Baers. That price to me seems very good. About $150 more than I can get a Rangemaster for.

As far as rimfires, I have 3 Hamden High Standards, model 102 8'' Supermatic Citation, model 104 5'' Citation, and a 107 Supermatic Trophy w/7.5'' barrel. They aren't Hammerli's or Pardini's but they will do......I think.

BTW.......I also have thought about a Pardini 45, but don't think I would like the double stack grip. Have never held one though.

While I'm at it, the most surprisingly accurate gun I ever shot in my life is my 45acp revolver, model 455, made by........Taurus, yes Taurus. I can group better with it than my Dan Wesson Pointman 1911 w/ a match barrel. And it is a wonderful 1911.

mutski · December 5, 2007, 08:26 PM

OK, abrubt turnaround. I found a Smith & Wesson Model 52-2, chambered for .38 special. Hope to have it soon from a seller in SD. Not a .45, but I have to drive 350 miles to get to a three-gun match, and I already have the dies to load .38s, and this is a classic gun.

I'm way looking forward to shooting it! Thanks for all the advice... maybe next it will be the Les Baer.

OldShooter · December 23, 2007, 03:56 PM

I still a beginner. I shoot with what I've got. When the gun gets to be a limiting factor I'll buy a better gun. Mostly I enjoy shooting and competing with myself. So far the guns shoot better than I do. And at the rate my eyesight is going I'll probably never have to buy a better gun.

Buckeyenomad · December 23, 2007, 06:54 PM

I first started shooting bullseye in the late 70's. I started out with a Colt Gold Cup and moved up to a Clark Heavy Long Slide....and I'm still shooting it. Clark was a Bullseye shooter and knew exactly what was needed.

Other choices would be used Pachmayr, Giles etc.

Joe D · December 24, 2007, 07:22 AM

It all depends on how serious you are. I have a Kimber Stainless Target that is accurate enough for the casual BE shooter. It shoots under 3" at 50 yds with proper loads.
If you are serious I would go with a gun built by one of the good Bullseye gunsmiths. Back in the day our Army guns were built by Jackie Best - AMU gunsmith. A couple of my .45s would easily group under 2" at 50 yds out of a Ransom.

pappyo · February 4, 2008, 01:58 PM

I use a Colt model 70 with a dot and Herter grips. The gun was done over many years ago and the trigger done again about 15 years ago. That gun shoots better than I ever will.

cdrt · February 4, 2008, 03:20 PM

Clark makes an excellent Bullseye gun.
I have a Clark Heavy Slide .38 Special 1911 conversion that Clark Sr. built for me back in 1984 and it is still a shooter. I did have the bushing replaced this year and it will still shoot inch and a half groups out of a Ransom rest at 50 yards.

And I have a Clark Heavy Slide in .45 ACP that Clark Junior built about 4 years ago. I had to send it back because the grip safety did not work and it would sometimes go to half cock during rapid fires. Both problems were inter-related and he fixed it, no problem.

One of the fellows here bought a Les Baer hardball gun last year and immediately got Leg points with it and he placed in the President's 100 at Perry.

Bottom line, either a Clark or Les Baer would be a good choice.

November 24, 2007, 02:52 AM	#1
mutski Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Location: fairbanks, alaska Posts: 127	Which .45 for Bullseye? What's a good .45 for Bulleye competition? Anyone have opinions about Les Baer or Rock River? What model do you like?

November 24, 2007, 07:45 AM	#2
papa shooter Member Join Date: August 20, 2007 Location: South Mississippi Posts: 66	pistol I shot a Colt National Match for bullseye. They are still avaliable on auction sights as well as gun shows. They will cost you around $1200.00-$1500.00 if you find one in good shape. Good luck with this question. I feel you will get a different opinion from every poster from here on out. Good Shooting Papa

November 25, 2007, 06:10 PM	#3
4EVERM-14 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2006 Location: Pennsy Posts: 720	I got to shoot a Rock River Bullseye model. Very nice . If I had the money it would be high on my list. __________________ David NRA Benefactor Member Distinguished Rifleman #731 Presidents 100

November 25, 2007, 08:13 PM	#4
TNT_Shooter Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2007 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 101	I shoot a David Sams custom 45 built on a Caspian frame and slide. He does exceptional work. It takes about a year to get the gun back once you place your order. His website is http://samscustomgunworksusa.com Good luck! TNT Last edited by TNT_Shooter; November 25, 2007 at 08:15 PM. Reason: changed the website address

November 27, 2007, 03:05 PM	#6
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	http://www.champchoice.com/detail.php?item=C45HB I have not shot one of these but you can be assured it would be legal for Bulls Eye. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

November 26, 2007, 04:56 PM	#5
10s&Xs Member Join Date: February 15, 2006 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 73	It's definitely a subjective topic, but I bought a slightly used Les Baer bullseye wadcutter at the beginning of the year, and it's been great. Would definitely recommend it.

November 27, 2007, 04:09 PM	#7
Old Gaffer Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2006 Location: Ft. Washington, MD Posts: 288	I'm quite new to the BE game, and I've only shot three 2700's - all with borrowed guns. I shoot in the high 600's with the Les Baer's, low 600's with an almost-stock Colt (trigger job and red dot only - not accurized). When I hit the lottery, I'm most likely going with the Les Baer, though I've heard much good about the Rock River too. Oh yeah, and anything built by Masaki or Curtis. Jump over here http://www.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/ and have a look through the archives. You might just want to subscribe too. FYI, the only thing I've heard about Kimbers is from a Master shooter - he tells me that a lot of the time when a shooter is having .45 problems, it's a Kimber gun. This is not data - it's hearsay, so grab the salt shake and take a grain or two. Good luck with your search. Rob Last edited by Old Gaffer; November 27, 2007 at 07:01 PM.

November 27, 2007, 10:53 PM	#8
Isabel1130 Junior Member Join Date: November 6, 2007 Location: Cheyenne, WY Posts: 13	Another vote for David Sams I have both a .45 wadcutter and a Beretta 9mm for LEG matches on order.

November 28, 2007, 12:48 AM	#9
mutski Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Location: fairbanks, alaska Posts: 127	I talked to Les Baer today - 12-16 week wait for a new gun. Rock River said 406 months. Sigh. Maybe used LB from Gunbroker.com?

November 28, 2007, 01:59 AM	#10
softmentor Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2007 Posts: 233	The HK Combat with match trigger is worth looking at. Reduced recoil, awesome reliability, and highly accurate. There's an add for it running in the latest issue of Frontsite Magazine. __________________ Way HK kinda' guy.

November 28, 2007, 02:21 AM	#11
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	For an entry level gun that you can shoot right now, I'd go for a Baer. You can find them on the shelves on occasion. As one poster mentioned already, check out the Bullseye List. It is an e-mail list, you can subscribe easily by going to www.bullseyepistol.com. One poster mentioned HK. First of all, I love HK handguns; one of the worst moves I've ever made was trading off a USP40. That being said, even though an HK is combat accurate, it is not bullseye/conventional pistol accurate. A good bullseye pistol (wadcutter or ball) will consistently deliver 1 1/2 inch to 2 inch groups at 50 yards. Yes, I meant YARDS, not feet, and these are minimum five round groups. The minimum standard acceptable is a 3 inch group at 50 yards. Check out the articles at the site mentioned above for a detailed explanation into why you want a pistol that shoots this well. At the same time, prepare to make an investment into your pistol. You will in all probability want a dot sight for your wadcutter gun; the best on the market that is affordable is the Ultra Dot. To get the most from your bullseye pistol, there is a good chance that you will want a custom grip. There are some excellent options; for semi custom grips that will help, take a look at Vitarbo grips, or some of the excellent offerings of Karl Nill (Nill grips). By far, the best (IMHO) custom grip manufacturer is Randall Fung. Take a look at his website. He makes true custom grips from scratch, built to fit you. Do you reload? Prepare to start if you don't; unless you have a rather liquid source of disposable cash, centerfire match handgun ammo is EXPENSIVE. The standard for wad guns is Federal GM Match, 185 grain SWC ammo--and it runs about $40.00 per box! Casting your own bullets will save even more money. This is just the tip of the iceberg--you also need a good accurate and dependable .22 pistol, at a minimum. If you want to go Distinguished, you'll need a dedicated ball gun too--plus there are other items that will make your life a lot easier on the firing line. My personal bullseye kit consists of a .22 with one backup gun (Hammerli 280, backup is a Marvel conversion on a 1911 frame), a SW M52-1 for centerfire, and a custom 1911 wadcutter gun built by Ed Masaki for the .45 stage. My hardball gun was also built by Ed Masaki, and also serves as a backup gun for the wadcutter gun. I cast my bullets from pure range scrap ; I use the 200 gr. HG 68 LSWC, sized to .452, on top of 3.9 of Clays for my wadcutter gun. It saves a LOT of money. The most important part of prep for a BE match is practice--and lots of it! Shoot, shoot, and shoot some more. Best of luck in your quest. Bullseye is, to me, the most challenging type of handgun competition--and I enjoy it immensely! See you on the firing line! __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

November 29, 2007, 03:18 AM	#12
mutski Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Location: fairbanks, alaska Posts: 127	I called Les Baer, found out that I must choose either scope or iron sights - can't switch back and for like I do with my .22, since the screws that hold the mount onto the frame are stress points - change back and forth and get cracks. Also, get the mount for a scope, you get no iron sights. That makes it a difficult choice; I'd like to be able to switch back and forth. My eyes are old, I certainly see the red dot better. On the other hand, I've shot some pretty good targets with .38s from a revolver with iron sights.

November 30, 2007, 04:55 PM	#13
4EVERM-14 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2006 Location: Pennsy Posts: 720	How about this idea. Get the Hardball gun. It can switch to wadcutter by changing the recoil spring plus a grip type scope mount. It may not be the best set up but you get dual purpose. __________________ David NRA Benefactor Member Distinguished Rifleman #731 Presidents 100

December 5, 2007, 03:46 PM	#14
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	I've been looking at an STI Rangemaster or Targetmaster. Just seen them on the net, but not in person. Do any of you have an opinion of these?

December 5, 2007, 05:38 PM	#15
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Parisite: It has been said that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The true test to see if a gun is good to go for Bullseye competition is to test it out. Ten rounds in a Ransom rest will tell the tale. Bottom line--if it won't hold 3 inches, MAXIMUM, at 50 measured yards, it is not suitable for Bullseye shooting. You can get it accurized, if you wish. Your best bet might be to contact the manufacture, and ask some questions. Ask: how accurate the pistols are, do they do custom work, can they guarantee accuracy, price, etc.

December 5, 2007, 06:43 PM	#16
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	Powderman you are exactly right. It's just that no one will let you test fire for accuracy a brand new gun. I had 90% made up my mind to purchase an STI Rangemaster 45 till I started reading this thread today and found the link to champchoice with the Les Baers. That price to me seems very good. About $150 more than I can get a Rangemaster for. As far as rimfires, I have 3 Hamden High Standards, model 102 8'' Supermatic Citation, model 104 5'' Citation, and a 107 Supermatic Trophy w/7.5'' barrel. They aren't Hammerli's or Pardini's but they will do......I think. BTW.......I also have thought about a Pardini 45, but don't think I would like the double stack grip. Have never held one though. While I'm at it, the most surprisingly accurate gun I ever shot in my life is my 45acp revolver, model 455, made by........Taurus, yes Taurus. I can group better with it than my Dan Wesson Pointman 1911 w/ a match barrel. And it is a wonderful 1911.

December 5, 2007, 08:26 PM	#17
mutski Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2006 Location: fairbanks, alaska Posts: 127	OK, abrubt turnaround. I found a Smith & Wesson Model 52-2, chambered for .38 special. Hope to have it soon from a seller in SD. Not a .45, but I have to drive 350 miles to get to a three-gun match, and I already have the dies to load .38s, and this is a classic gun. I'm way looking forward to shooting it! Thanks for all the advice... maybe next it will be the Les Baer.

December 23, 2007, 03:56 PM	#18
OldShooter Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 846	Bullseye I still a beginner. I shoot with what I've got. When the gun gets to be a limiting factor I'll buy a better gun. Mostly I enjoy shooting and competing with myself. So far the guns shoot better than I do. And at the rate my eyesight is going I'll probably never have to buy a better gun.

December 23, 2007, 06:54 PM	#19
Buckeyenomad Junior Member Join Date: October 27, 2006 Posts: 8	I first started shooting bullseye in the late 70's. I started out with a Colt Gold Cup and moved up to a Clark Heavy Long Slide....and I'm still shooting it. Clark was a Bullseye shooter and knew exactly what was needed. Other choices would be used Pachmayr, Giles etc.

December 24, 2007, 07:22 AM	#20
Joe D Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 1999 Location: Alabama Posts: 455	It all depends on how serious you are. I have a Kimber Stainless Target that is accurate enough for the casual BE shooter. It shoots under 3" at 50 yds with proper loads. If you are serious I would go with a gun built by one of the good Bullseye gunsmiths. Back in the day our Army guns were built by Jackie Best - AMU gunsmith. A couple of my .45s would easily group under 2" at 50 yds out of a Ransom. __________________ Miss? That can't be a miss. Looks like a perfect double to me.

February 4, 2008, 01:58 PM	#21
pappyo Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2008 Location: north huntingdon, pa Posts: 8	I use a Colt model 70 with a dot and Herter grips. The gun was done over many years ago and the trigger done again about 15 years ago. That gun shoots better than I ever will.

February 4, 2008, 03:20 PM	#22
cdrt Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 255	Clark makes an excellent Bullseye gun. I have a Clark Heavy Slide .38 Special 1911 conversion that Clark Sr. built for me back in 1984 and it is still a shooter. I did have the bushing replaced this year and it will still shoot inch and a half groups out of a Ransom rest at 50 yards. And I have a Clark Heavy Slide in .45 ACP that Clark Junior built about 4 years ago. I had to send it back because the grip safety did not work and it would sometimes go to half cock during rapid fires. Both problems were inter-related and he fixed it, no problem. One of the fellows here bought a Les Baer hardball gun last year and immediately got Leg points with it and he placed in the President's 100 at Perry. Bottom line, either a Clark or Les Baer would be a good choice. __________________ Navy Vet, SWIFT Boat OIC, Distinguished Pistol Shot #1399 USS JOHN S. MCCAIN (DDG-36)