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Old December 19, 2010, 01:18 PM   #1
atlctyslkr
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When you can't carry, less than lethal options

There are some places where I go where firearms (weapons) are prohibited. If it's a place where I know there are no metal detectors I sometimes carry a small knife or pepper spray. I figure it's better than nothing and I may be less likely to prosecuted for it. Anyone else do this?
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Old December 19, 2010, 01:56 PM   #2
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A knife is lethal force, not less than lethal.

The first and best thing you can carry is your brain. I'm not being flippant here: your best less than lethal option is to get training in how to use your hands and the world around you to defend yourself. Viewing websites, reading books and magazines, watching videos -- all okay, but far inferior to getting some hands-on work with qualified people. It doesn't take years of martial arts training in order to get just a few simple techniques you can use in a variety of situations. Add to that a determination to stay alert and aware (and again, a little training in what to look for and some ideas for how to avoid trouble or de-escalate it if it starts) and you'll be in good shape.

Pepper spray can be an excellent tool, but too many people carry it without training in what it can do and how to use it most effectively. It's not a panacea, it doesn't work on every attacker, and it doesn't always incapacitate quickly. In addition to all that, people who don't know how their own personal bodies respond to the stuff probably should not carry it, since it's pretty much a given that you'll be exposed to it too when you use it. Can you fight through its effects? How do you know? Again, training makes a big difference here.

On airplanes and in other very non-permissive environments, you have lots of options if you know what to look for. If you have just a little training in short-stick techniques, for example, you can use a simple ballpoint pen to great effect. Without that training, a pen is just a pen.

There really isn't a gadget you can carry that takes the place of training. But with just a little knowledge, a lot of ordinary items can be used to defend yourself.

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Old December 19, 2010, 01:57 PM   #3
raimius
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Except for airports, most places alllow some sort of knife. It's not as good as a gun or tazer/OC, but with some training it can be effective. After that, you would probably need to go with well-built flashlights or some such thing.


Edit: I realize using a knife is "lethal force." However, smaller knives tend to qualify as tools under the law. Check your local laws and policies if you are unsure of what exactly qualifies as a weapon. Therefore, it is possible to carry a lethal force option without carrying a concealed weapon (since it would only be considered a weapon if it was used as such). If anyone was confused, I apologize.

Last edited by raimius; December 19, 2010 at 05:53 PM.
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Old December 19, 2010, 02:11 PM   #4
xMINORxTHREATx
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Pax, when referring to "short stick" training and using a ballpoint pen, where you referring to something like a kubaton? When I hear short stick, I think a baton.

http://www.staffpatrol.com/products/...baton_Flat.jpg


This is what I would suggest. Or even a Smith and Wesson pen.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_N

It's a functional pen, but sturdy enough to use a kubotan, and has a window punch built into it.
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Old December 19, 2010, 02:22 PM   #5
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Yup, like a Kubotan - not a full size baton. One nice thing about Kubotan techniques is that they work really well with small flashlights as well as pens, screwdrivers, silverware, and other common items.

When flying, I always toss a (non-tactical, non-scary looking) small flashlight into my carry on, and put it into my pocket when I get on board. It's useful in about a dozen different ways, including as an improvised weapon. And it might even help save your life if you ever need to evacuate a smoke-filled plane.

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Old December 19, 2010, 02:52 PM   #6
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My brain is a lethal weapon, hence I am always armed.


WilditssmallcaliberthoughAlaska ™©2002-2010
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Old December 19, 2010, 02:57 PM   #7
xMINORxTHREATx
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WildAlaska, you never cease to make me chuckle.
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Old December 19, 2010, 02:58 PM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
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I found that SW pen is a touch large for most shirt pockets. Check out it's measurements. I have a very sturdy automatic pencil that serves. Anyway, the SW pen vanished into the void. Left it on my desk at work and the next day -

I also take a Surefire in my carry on when I fly. I avoid the tactical edge types.

At work I carry a Surefire and it's been very useful as a flashlight. I also used it to bop an automated dummy at the NTI when they gave us only three rounds! Surprise. Wasn't the best solution - we were supposed to pick up the tennis racket. But you get fixated on what you carry.
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Old December 19, 2010, 03:52 PM   #9
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Broke my leg riding last year, my wife got me this
http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html
Such a nice wife,
Damn effective weapon might I add
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Old December 19, 2010, 04:08 PM   #10
xMINORxTHREATx
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That is awesome Egor! I might get one for my Dad!

You said, except a plane. You cant take a cane on a plane? No pun intended
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Old December 19, 2010, 06:02 PM   #11
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FOX pepper spray.
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Old December 19, 2010, 06:13 PM   #12
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besides my carry gun, i always have a folding knife (kershaw blur) in my front pants pocket and a 5" ka-bar fixed blade in my boot. for airports and gov't buildings i put a paradise carbon fiber ball point in my front pants pocket.
as others have stated already, the tool is useless without proper training. what to do with the tool needs to be second nature, just like a concealed carry weapon.
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Old December 19, 2010, 08:34 PM   #13
silentargus
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A little can of OC spray is my "NJ Carry." It's far from ideal, but it's better than nothing. I used a few up for practice when I started carrying it, to determine point of aim and whatnot- whatever failings pepper spray has, it's not prohibitively expensive to practice with every once in a while (and keeps pest critters off of whatever I practice on). When I'm carry-legal I leave the spray in the car.
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Old December 20, 2010, 03:49 PM   #14
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A sharp pencil will penetrate a body just fine. Everything is a weapon.
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Old December 20, 2010, 04:34 PM   #15
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1. push-button expandable club.
2. stun gun / taser
3. pepper spray
4. tear gas pen
5. brass knuckles
6. air horn
7. replica gun
8. unloaded gun

Some of those might be lethal.....some of those might even be lethal to the person who uses them for self defense, but I think this answers the OP's question.
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Old December 20, 2010, 04:51 PM   #16
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In 2011, we will be offering a civilian pepper spray class using Sabre Red. Interest so far has been very good.
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Old December 20, 2010, 04:54 PM   #17
Glenn E. Meyer
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Several of Skans' suggestions are illegal in some locales. Check your laws.
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Old December 20, 2010, 05:38 PM   #18
teeroux
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I always kept a spike kubaton on my key ring. It used to be black now it is a worn gray spike and I will never get rid of it. Its a great striking tool always at hand when your keys are at hand, which if not paying attention is usually a good oportunity for a dirtbag to move in. Heck if you have too many keys like I do the kubaton then also makes a handle for quite a formidable flail.
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Old December 20, 2010, 05:58 PM   #19
aarondhgraham
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In February 2002,,,

I had to fly to Boston,,,
I was nervous about getting on a plane.

Then I remembered I always had a fairly effective close-up weapon,,,
My 2" leather belt with a big heavy oval trophy buckle.

I think I would rather have it than a knife,,,
I just replaced the snaps with rivets.

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Old December 20, 2010, 06:18 PM   #20
nazshooter
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Quote:
Then I remembered I always had a fairly effective close-up weapon,,,
My 2" leather belt with a big heavy oval trophy buckle.
And if all else fails your assailant might laugh themselves to death when they see you standing there with your pants around your ankles and swinging your belt

FWIW I always have a multitool clipped to my belt. I doubt I'd bother trying to get that small non-locking blade out in an emergency but it makes for a good hand weight and sticks out from my hand enough to be used in the same way as a kubaton. One other advantage is that since it's something I have to reach for daily I know I can get to it quickly and without looking.
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Old December 21, 2010, 01:20 PM   #21
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I'm not sure what you mean by "less than lethal." Nearly anything can be lethal, you can kill a person with a pillow. However, even with intent, a pillow is not considered a deadly weapon. With intent to harm, a knife of any size or shape can be considered by a reasonable person, to be a deadly weapon.

I think what you are looking for are "less lethal" options.

If you spray somebody because you feel they are a threat and they have a severe allergic or cardiopulmonary reaction to OC/CS, it may kill them. You may be convicted in a criminal trial, and/or you may be found guilty in civil court. Pepper can certainly be a lethal weapon, but is generally considered "less lethal" than a firearm or a knife.

Blunt objects such a stingers, knucks, kubotans, "tactical pens," delta darts, crenelated flashlights, are all intended to be blunt force weapons, and a good shot with any of them to the skull can put somebody into a veggie state or kill them, particularly if the target has underlying conditions.

Regarding legality, intent can mean the difference between self-defense, justified homicide, or murder. And intent isn't that tough to prove in court if you're carrying something that a reasonable person would consider to be a deadly weapon. Make your choices wisely.

Last edited by booker_t; December 21, 2010 at 01:27 PM.
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Old December 21, 2010, 01:31 PM   #22
aarondhgraham
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Oh nazshooter,,, Ye are surely of little faith,,,,,

Quote:
your assailant might laugh themselves to death when they see you standing there with your pants around your ankles and swinging your belt
Okay, you figured out the strategy,,,
That's part of the beauty of the whole belt thing,,,
When you get you opponent to laughing, you can take him out.

But seriously,,,
Haven't you ever been witness to a cowboy bar fight?

Invariably someone will whip off their belt,,,
And do some considerable damage with that buckle.

Don't laugh until you try it,,,
Swing about 18 inches of belt with a heavy buckle,,,
Smack something with it and you will be surprised at the damage.

Saved my @$$ in a bar fight in South Korea one time,,,
And it wasn't even a very big buckle.
Hit the guy in the hand with it,,,
He dropped the knife.

If I ever get so fat as to need suspenders,,,
Then I am poop-out-of luck.

Aarond
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Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
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Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; December 21, 2010 at 01:45 PM. Reason: BAD words.
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Old December 21, 2010, 02:00 PM   #23
Amin Parker
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A good quality sharp folding knife that can be brought into action quickly is a very serious weapon.

A contact weapon takes serious determination on your part. You must be sure that you want to defend yourself with deadly force and be prepared for the mess.
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Old December 21, 2010, 04:30 PM   #24
markj
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Quote:
5. brass knuckles
Oh no, do not ever get caught with these, it is a felony.

Carry a sap, it is a leather strap filled with lead shot, hit a guy with it and he will be hurtin. Cops used to carry these.
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Old December 24, 2010, 03:41 AM   #25
Eagle0711
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Never Fails If Done Correctly

A wooden cane is a great weapon, but without trainnnig it would be difficult to be effective.

A two finger eye shot has never failed to stop anyone that I've used it on. It does take some skill though. If rt. handed place your hand near you rt. breast so that it travels a short distance, and is a zero perception technique. It's hard to see when comming straight at you.

To distract him simply ask him a question. or raise your left hand and open it and his eye will follow it. Hands open will add speed. Practice in front of a mirror. Keeping the hands open and relaxed will add speed. If done correct he'll never block it. Good luck. Lyle
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