Why do people say 9mm can't work on black bears? (has better stats than 357 does!)

[mavracer]

Answer= 9mm+P has 86 more ft-pounds of energy than the .357 snub does in the above numbers.

You kinda cherry picked ammo there, that's probably the weakest 357 factory loading on the market.
Also energy is a very poor yardstick to use for modeling penetration. which is why a 147gr 9mm will out penetrate 115gr 9mm even though the 115 has more energy.
And as far as the "a lot of people carry a snub in the woods" yes I do IN KANSAS WHERE THERE ARE NO GRIZZLYS
If I were to go camping somewhere and were forced to choose between my 357 and my 9mm. I would take my 3" SP101 loaded with my 172gr Keith SWC that chrono 1150 from my gun.

[tahunua001]

so please post the velocity for a +p+ ammo out of a 357 snub nose before you make such vement statements. your argument that a 9mm is better than a snub nosed revolver is completely flawed. you are posting low velocity(almost 38 special) loads in the 357 while posting loads for 9mm that are way above spec with most manufacturers and would undoubtedly beat the gun to pieces if you shoot it much. nobody say's to themselves, "I'm going to be in bear country today, better grab that budget brand, low velocity, target ammo for the 357". that logic just never crosses someone's mind. if you really want to be fair to both sides, grab data from either light loads, medium, or +p+ in both calibers, don't try to fudge the numbers by making an unlikely situation even more unlikely by making the person with the better caliber worse off by making a stupid decision with the ammo they bring.

if you take standard FMJ loads for a 9mm which are between 100 and 115gr have right around 300 FTLBS and standard 357 loads which have right about what you posted then the 357 has the obvious advantage. if you went one step further and gave them both the same bullet type in average weight, which is only fair, then no matter what you choose, the 357 has a clear advantage over 9mm.

taken right from midwayUSA.

357 buffalo bore 158GR JHP +P+(not safe to be fired from pistols weighing less than 16OZ) from a 2 1/2 inch barrel: 1100 FPS and 422FTLBs muzzle

9mm buffalo bore 147GR JHP +P+ from a 5 inch barrel: 1150Fps and 451 FTLBs muzzle.

that is a fair comparison of muzzle velocities between a snubnosed 357 and service sized 9mm. BUT, and there is always a but, have you stopped to see what those same bullets are doing at 25 yards? given an estimated BC of .13 for the 9mm(based on premium bullet selections) the 9mm is down to 385FTLBs at 25 yards. on the other hand the 357 with an estimated BC of .206(also estimated based on premium bullet selections) the 357 still has 398 FTLBs of energy at 25 yards.

this is all ignoring the fact that this is basing this on the fact that one user is using a 5 inch barrel and the other is using a 2 1/2. if the 357 happened to be a ruger GP100 with 5 inch barrel instead of an SP101 with 2 1/2 inch then the 357 would wipe the floor with the 9mm.

again this is coming from a guy that packs a 9mm for black bear. I do not doubt that a 9mm can stop a black bear but the entire process in which yo are attempting to justify it by pitting low quality 357 out of a pocket gun against premium 9mm out of a service pistol is completely counter-intuitive.

[jimbob86]

To those who keep saying that I said the whole "combined energy theory" is a fact -- please read before you reply. I never said it was fact or true.

So why put it out there if it is neither fact or true?

Don't say it if you don't believe it to be so.

[sc928porsche]

If you are out hunting, why are you carrying a 9mm or snub nose to begin with? Carry something appropriate.

[shafter]

How many here have shot a bear front-on with a 357 magnum or 9mm? I've shot one with a 357 magnum and wasn't all that impressed. (He turned and ran the other way after a few hits).

For one thing calculating total bullet grains in the cylinder or mag is just plain silly. It's purely academic and has nothing to do with a heart racing moment where you have a split second to do what your going to do. Its very doubtful that anyone is going to get 15 rounds into a bear while he is coming at them. (they might if they keep shooting if the bear turns and runs)

Also, keep in mind that most 9mm ammunition is designed for humans and is hollow point. Against a bear you want something that is going to go through his skull or break a big bone. The ft/pounds don't matter because you aren't going to physically stop him. You just need that slug to get to his brain. I would say bullet construction is more important than the energy difference between 357 and 9mm.

In anycase, my one experience surely doesn't make me an expert, but I have learned in life that what looks one way on paper usually looks a lot different in real life.

[shafter]

I suppose a fellow could take a black bear with a 22 LR if wanting too

I know for a fact this is true - even with a 22 revolver. As they say shot placement is king.

[Josh17]

@tahunua001 AND @ mavracer

Comparing a Glock 26 (which is the smallest Glock period) is a fair comparison to a Snub Nose Revolver like the RUGER LCR. Completely fair comparison. The .357 just is not meant to be fired from a tiny snub nose revolver. ALSO, the .357 +P rounds you mentioned are NOT safe to be fired from the Revolver I mentioned: the RUGER LCR. The reality is a .357 magnum really just isn't meant to be fired from a snub-nose revolver. It losses way too much power -- it's almost comparable to a 38 special +P in some cases. A .357 mag was meant to be fired from a full-sized revolver, that's where it really shines and has it's power. But anyways, here are LOTS of numbers below so you can tell I'm not just choosing "one poor performing 357 round".


**Note** both the .357 and 9mm are using quality rounds.
----Ruger SP101 .357 MAGNUM, 110gr, JHP. Velocity: 1,208 fps. Ft-pounds energy = 356.
----Ruger Speed Six .357 MAGNUM,125 JHP. Velocity: 1,248 fps. Ft-pounds energy = 432.
----Taurus, 125 grain, .357 MAGNUM, JHP. Velocity: 1,143 fps. Ft-pounds of energy: 363
VS
----Glock 26, 124 grain. Velocity:1,182 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 394
----Glock 19, 124 grain. Velocity: 1,238 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 433

Results: The SP101 and Tarus performed worse than both the Glock 26 and Glock 19. While the Ruger Speed Six performed the best of the 357 snub noses, beating the Glock 26 by a small margin, but losing to the Glock 19 by a tiny Margin. But either way, they look pretty damn equal IMO. But technically, the 9mm won on paper.

Now, here are results from a gun magazine.

----S&W 686, 110 grain, JHP. Velocity: 1,231 fps. Ft-pounds Energy: 370
----Taurus 617, 110 graim, JHP. Velocity: 1,206 fps. Ft-pounds Energy: 356
----S&W 686, 158 grain, JHP. Velocity: 1,068 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 400
VS
----Glock 19, 115 grain. Velocity: 1,268 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 410
----Glock 19, 124 grain. Velocity: 1,217 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 408

Results: Very close, but the 9mm still won on paper. They are so close you mine as well call them equal, but still technically, 9mm won -- on paper.

NOW SINCE ALL THE LOADS ABOVE WHERE "LIGHTER" LOADS HERE'S SOME MORE HEAVY DUTY LOADS FOR BOTH THE .357 MAGNUM AND 9MM. COMPARISON:

----Taurus 617, 180 grain, JHP. Velocity: 1,023 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 418
----S&W 686, 180 JHP. Velocity: 1,042 fps. Ft-pounds energy: 434
VS
----Glock 19, 9mm +P, 115 grain. Velocity: 1415. FT-pounds energy: 511.
----Glock 19, 9mm +P+, 115 grain. Velocity: 1400. Ft-pounds energy: 500

Results: The 9mm in +P won producing vastly higher Velocity speeds and higher ft-pounds of energy. But still, both rounds performed well and in real life tests you probably wouldn't notice the difference. BUT, on paper, the 9mm still won against a snub nosed .357.

I'm pretty sure that's enough numbers from various sources to show that a snub-nosed .357 is very, very, very different than a full-sized 6 inch barrel .357 is. In fact, the 9mm has better numbers than a 2-inch Snub Nose .357 magnum does

So to others reading this topic,we already have multiple people in this thread who said they would take a .357 snub any-day, and some even said they carry it in the woods!! So that's why I am comparing a .357 snub vs 9mm for a back-up woods gun. We already had some admit here they do carry a 357 snub. The thing is, they don't realize the 9mm is producing just as good (or better) numbers then their snub-nose .357 is. Numbers aren't everything, no, but it's all we have to go off. And I'll say it again, THIS ISN'T A HUNTING THREAD! It's for the rare situation where you might have to defend yourself against a bear in an expected situation (like out camping) therefore you might not have a higher powered handgun/rifle available to use.

[Bezoar]

animal bullet are being tested in balistics gelatin.

sd bullets are too.

not to many years ago that online magazine about guns and hunting and ammunition did a snub test. they found out stock 38 special snubs with 2 inch barrels were able to punch a 158 grain bullet through 2.5-3 feet of ballistics gel.

now how much did that +p+ 9mm load penetrate.....

[mavracer]

@josh17 you're still equating energy to performance.

ENERGY IS A POOR METHOD OF PREDICTING PERFORMANCE

Try looking at momentum and get back with us see if those 115 +p+ get close to the 180gr 357s

[jimbob86]

Josh, you seem to believe that kinetic energy will kill an animal.

A hit the Central Nervous System (Brain/Spine) might stop them from attacking you(or doing anything else, such as breathing) Hypoxia is what kills animals (at least in the near term- we are not concerned about starvation or toxicity due to infection, which are probably contributing factors to the deaths of most animals.

Disruption of biological systems that facilitate oxygenation of tissues is what causes that hypoxia .....


With respect to bears, those systems may be protected by a considerable amount of muscle and bone ....... a light, fast bullet like a 115gr 9mm is less likely to penetrate deep enough to damage those systems than a heavier, equally fast bullet, such as a 180gr .357Magnum .......

It's not "stats" that will kill the bear. The bear does not have any "stats"- no hit points, chits, status bar, etc. to wear down...... it has a small brain directing several hundred pounds of muscle, bone, claws and teeth, all supplied with food and oxygen (to make energy to power the biological machine that is the bear!) by circulatory,pulmonary and digestive systems ..... that last of which, if the bear in qustion is attacking you, it is attempting to feed ...... with YOU.

[jimbob86]

Answer= 9mm+P has 86 more ft-pounds of energy than the .357 snub does in the above numbers.

I doubt if a 300 pound bear charging at 51.333 feet per second will stop to do the math ....... it instictively knows that the 86 f/sec difference between the "stats" of your two rounds are a PII error* when compared to the bear's momentum and ferocity ......


*PII = "Preocupation w/ Inconsequential Increments

[hogdogs]

If your theory was correct a 12 gauge 1 1/2 oz. load of #9 shot would be superior to a 1 oz. slug for hunting whitetail deer. If your theory was correct why would states regulate shotgun shells, rifle cartridges or handgun cartridges for hunting?

Been 'round and 'round enough on this theory...

Brent