Are Bi-Metal Jacketed Bullets armor piercing....

Skans · October 22, 2013, 04:13 PM

I would like to know if anyone has actually tested various bi-metal bullets to see if they will or will not pierce bullet-proof vests, and what were the results compared to lead core bullets?

For purposes of discussion, I am not asking about BATFE definition of "armor piercing" or whether the definition only applies to pistol cartridges vs. rifle cartridges.

It seems to me that bi-metal bullets, i.e. those which are steel-jacketed, would be far more prone to piercing certain levels of bullet proof vests, at least more so than copper-jacketed lead bullets.

It also seems to me that the makers of various armored vests would have done some testing on how they hold up to steel-jacketed bullets, since they are now quite prevalent. However, I can't find a thing about whether various body armor holds up to threats from bi-metal bullets. Is there any specific factual data out there on this?

iraiam · October 22, 2013, 08:50 PM

Although the jacket is steel, it is quite soft. I can cut a 7.62X39 Tula bullet in half with wire cutters, virtually no discernible difference performing the same experiment on a 150 grain 30-30 bullet. Actual "armor piercing" has a hardened steel core which does not expand and deform against the dense weave of a vest.

I have not tested anything against a vest because I only have one vest and don't want to ruin it.

chris in va · October 22, 2013, 10:13 PM

Well, a 7.62x39 is gonna penetrate a standard vest regardless of bullet construction.

iraiam · October 23, 2013, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Well, a 7.62x39 is gonna penetrate a standard vest regardless of bullet construction.

True, I was just using 7.62X39 as an example of how soft the steel jacket actually is. I thought I had some Tula 9mm, but I am unable to lay my hands on it right now. I would bet the steel jacket on that ammo is just as soft, but I don't recall even checking if it is a steel jacket.

bill-may · October 24, 2013, 10:15 AM

try a 7.62X54R out of a mosin nagant for penetration using steel core steel case if you think 7.62X39 fired from my 1959 T56 SKS is cool.

iraiam · October 24, 2013, 05:50 PM

Quote:

try a 7.62X54R out of a mosin nagant for penetration using steel core steel case

Steel core? I think you mean steel jacketed.

armsmaster270 · October 24, 2013, 10:15 PM

I still have a bunch of Garand clips full of G.I. A.P.

markj · October 25, 2013, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Steel core? I think you mean steel jacketed.

No he didnt, steel core is armour piercing ammo.

Skans · October 28, 2013, 08:06 AM

The question is whether a bi-metal bullet, say 7.62x39 will substantially defeat body armor better than a solid lead bullet of the same cartridge. What about pistol cartridges using bi-metal? Has anyone actually tested this? Has anyone actually tested how bi-metal bullets deform (or not deform) upon hitting various substances?

I know the difference between a steel-core bullet and a bi-metal (mild steel jacketed) bullet. However, I have read reports of very little deformation of bi-metal bullets upon impact, and I was wondering if this translates into better penetration of protective armor.

Dfariswheel · October 28, 2013, 07:03 PM

No he didnt, steel core is armour piercing ammo.

Not always.
Armor piercing ammo has a core of very hard steel or a heavy, hard metal like tungsten.
The core has a very sharply pointed tip.

Some steel core ammo is not armor piercing.
As example the surplus 7N6-PS 5.45x39 ammo.
The bullet jacket is very mild steel.
Inside is a mild steel core. The core is blunt on both ends and is not considered to be armor piercing, although it does penetrate thin steel better then a lead core.

Here's a sectioned 7N6-PS bullet.
Note the blunt-ended mild steel core.

Skans · October 29, 2013, 07:48 AM

Dfariswheel, I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I see the steel jacket. Is the inner metal (inside of the large void) steel or lead? Also, is the tip hollow or some other metal?

markj · October 30, 2013, 04:46 PM

Quote:

No he didnt, steel core is armour piercing ammo.

Not always.

OK, let me re word that, not all stell core is armour piercing but all amrour piercing is steel core. Didnt want to confuse this issue with that statement.

The inner core is what passes thru the metal or whatever. Most vests are rated at pistol level, not rifle. So any high powered rifle will penetrate most vests with regular ammo. Bulletproof glass is same way,it is rated for a certain level they would expect to be hit with.

Dfariswheel · October 30, 2013, 07:03 PM

Skans:

Inside the tip of the bullet is a hollow air space. It's NOT a hollow point. The internal air cavity shifts the center of gravity to the rear.

The large object inside is the blunt-ended mild steel core.

On top of the steel core is a lead "cap" and there's a very thin layer of lead between the steel core and the outer steel jacket.

The idea is, the hollow air cavity shifts the center of gravity to the rear of the bullet, which in flight makes the bullet very stable.
However, when the bullet hits, the bullet destabilizes quickly and the bullet tumbles.
The Soviets thought that the rapidly tumbling bullet would make the bullet more effective, read lethal.

This is the infamous "Poison" or "Devil's" bullet from the Afghanistan-Soviet war.

Skans · October 31, 2013, 08:05 AM

Dfariswheel, do you know if that bullet similar to the bullets used in ordinary Wolf 7.62x39? Or, do the Wolf bullets use lead as an inner core? Thanks for sharing your knowledge regarding these bi-metal bullets. They've always been somewhat of a mystery to me.

Cy4ka · October 31, 2013, 10:32 AM

Not much anything is "armor piercing" despite what sellers want you to believe.

Some 7n22, yea

bamaranger · October 31, 2013, 03:53 PM

Yeah, despite the claims of shop owners and shop commandos, a steel core slug does not necessarily an AP slug make. D'wheel has pretty much nailed it.

Combloc used MILD steel core for their ball, likely cause it was more obtainable and cheaper than lead. When your providing ammo for a zillion AK's, I guess the costs run up.

5.56RifleGuy · October 31, 2013, 09:19 PM

[QUOTE]OK, let me re word that, not all stell core is armour piercing but all amrour piercing is steel core[QUOTE]

Tungsten is pretty popular nowadays. Some ap ammo uses coventional components with advanced purpose build bullet design. I recall seeing ap handgun ammo that looked like an upside down top with a needle stuck into it.

markj · November 1, 2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Tungsten is pretty popular nowadays

I have a bunch of 30-06 from ww2 that is amor piercing stuff. It will go thru several engine blocks

at one time. Has a blacktip.

jimbob86 · November 1, 2013, 04:59 PM

Pretty much any centerfire rifle bullet will pierce Level IIIa body armor.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

Even with plates, large caliber, high velocity rounds will penetrate.

And hard cast lead of sufficient mass seems to be a fairly good penetrator-

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_3.htm

Dfariswheel · November 2, 2013, 06:33 PM

do you know if that bullet similar to the bullets used in ordinary Wolf 7.62x39? Or, do the Wolf bullets use lead as an inner core

As far as I know all Wolf commercial ammo has lead cores.

Also as far as I know only the 5.45x39 7N6-PS bullet is designed that way.
A lot of 7.62x39 military ammo has steel cores, both standard and armor piercing, but not designed like the 5.45.

**44 AMP** · November 10, 2013, 02:29 PM

That means two metals, right? Aren't ALL jacketed bullets bi-metal?

Pretty sloppy term if what you are referring to is steel jackets or steel cores.

Pretty much any rifle round legal to hunt deer with in the US will punch through a pistol rated vest without really noticing it is there.

A lot of them will do a serious job of trying to get through a rifle rated vest. Some will make it, too.

Lots of nations have used tungsten for AP bullet cores. It works better than steel for that. But steel is much cheaper, and can work acceptably well against light armor & vests.

October 22, 2013, 04:13 PM	#1
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Are Bi-Metal Jacketed Bullets armor piercing.... I would like to know if anyone has actually tested various bi-metal bullets to see if they will or will not pierce bullet-proof vests, and what were the results compared to lead core bullets? For purposes of discussion, I am not asking about BATFE definition of "armor piercing" or whether the definition only applies to pistol cartridges vs. rifle cartridges. It seems to me that bi-metal bullets, i.e. those which are steel-jacketed, would be far more prone to piercing certain levels of bullet proof vests, at least more so than copper-jacketed lead bullets. It also seems to me that the makers of various armored vests would have done some testing on how they hold up to steel-jacketed bullets, since they are now quite prevalent. However, I can't find a thing about whether various body armor holds up to threats from bi-metal bullets. Is there any specific factual data out there on this?

October 22, 2013, 08:50 PM	#2
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	Although the jacket is steel, it is quite soft. I can cut a 7.62X39 Tula bullet in half with wire cutters, virtually no discernible difference performing the same experiment on a 150 grain 30-30 bullet. Actual "armor piercing" has a hardened steel core which does not expand and deform against the dense weave of a vest. I have not tested anything against a vest because I only have one vest and don't want to ruin it. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

October 24, 2013, 10:15 AM	#5
bill-may Member Join Date: October 18, 2013 Location: San Diego,ca Posts: 20	try a 7.62X54R out of a mosin nagant for penetration using steel core steel case if you think 7.62X39 fired from my 1959 T56 SKS is cool. __________________ guns enemies are rust,bubba and politicians.

October 24, 2013, 10:15 PM	#7
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	I still have a bunch of Garand clips full of G.I. A.P. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

October 28, 2013, 08:06 AM	#9
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	The question is whether a bi-metal bullet, say 7.62x39 will substantially defeat body armor better than a solid lead bullet of the same cartridge. What about pistol cartridges using bi-metal? Has anyone actually tested this? Has anyone actually tested how bi-metal bullets deform (or not deform) upon hitting various substances? I know the difference between a steel-core bullet and a bi-metal (mild steel jacketed) bullet. However, I have read reports of very little deformation of bi-metal bullets upon impact, and I was wondering if this translates into better penetration of protective armor. Last edited by Skans; October 28, 2013 at 08:14 AM.

October 22, 2013, 10:13 PM	#3
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Well, a 7.62x39 is gonna penetrate a standard vest regardless of bullet construction.

October 28, 2013, 07:03 PM	#10
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	No he didnt, steel core is armour piercing ammo. Not always. Armor piercing ammo has a core of very hard steel or a heavy, hard metal like tungsten. The core has a very sharply pointed tip. Some steel core ammo is not armor piercing. As example the surplus 7N6-PS 5.45x39 ammo. The bullet jacket is very mild steel. Inside is a mild steel core. The core is blunt on both ends and is not considered to be armor piercing, although it does penetrate thin steel better then a lead core. Here's a sectioned 7N6-PS bullet. Note the blunt-ended mild steel core.

October 29, 2013, 07:48 AM	#11
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Dfariswheel, I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I see the steel jacket. Is the inner metal (inside of the large void) steel or lead? Also, is the tip hollow or some other metal?

October 30, 2013, 07:03 PM	#13
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Skans: Inside the tip of the bullet is a hollow air space. It's NOT a hollow point. The internal air cavity shifts the center of gravity to the rear. The large object inside is the blunt-ended mild steel core. On top of the steel core is a lead "cap" and there's a very thin layer of lead between the steel core and the outer steel jacket. The idea is, the hollow air cavity shifts the center of gravity to the rear of the bullet, which in flight makes the bullet very stable. However, when the bullet hits, the bullet destabilizes quickly and the bullet tumbles. The Soviets thought that the rapidly tumbling bullet would make the bullet more effective, read lethal. This is the infamous "Poison" or "Devil's" bullet from the Afghanistan-Soviet war.

October 31, 2013, 08:05 AM	#14
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Dfariswheel, do you know if that bullet similar to the bullets used in ordinary Wolf 7.62x39? Or, do the Wolf bullets use lead as an inner core? Thanks for sharing your knowledge regarding these bi-metal bullets. They've always been somewhat of a mystery to me.

October 31, 2013, 10:32 AM	#15
Cy4ka Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Posts: 39	Not much anything is "armor piercing" despite what sellers want you to believe. Some 7n22, yea

October 31, 2013, 03:53 PM	#16
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	+1 Yeah, despite the claims of shop owners and shop commandos, a steel core slug does not necessarily an AP slug make. D'wheel has pretty much nailed it. Combloc used MILD steel core for their ball, likely cause it was more obtainable and cheaper than lead. When your providing ammo for a zillion AK's, I guess the costs run up.

October 31, 2013, 09:19 PM	#17
5.56RifleGuy Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2010 Location: USA Posts: 1,212	[QUOTE]OK, let me re word that, not all stell core is armour piercing but all amrour piercing is steel core[QUOTE] Tungsten is pretty popular nowadays. Some ap ammo uses coventional components with advanced purpose build bullet design. I recall seeing ap handgun ammo that looked like an upside down top with a needle stuck into it. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus

November 1, 2013, 04:59 PM	#19
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	Pretty much any centerfire rifle bullet will pierce Level IIIa body armor. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm Even with plates, large caliber, high velocity rounds will penetrate. And hard cast lead of sufficient mass seems to be a fairly good penetrator- http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_3.htm

November 2, 2013, 06:33 PM	#20
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	do you know if that bullet similar to the bullets used in ordinary Wolf 7.62x39? Or, do the Wolf bullets use lead as an inner core As far as I know all Wolf commercial ammo has lead cores. Also as far as I know only the 5.45x39 7N6-PS bullet is designed that way. A lot of 7.62x39 military ammo has steel cores, both standard and armor piercing, but not designed like the 5.45.

November 10, 2013, 02:29 PM	#21
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Bi Metal? That means two metals, right? Aren't ALL jacketed bullets bi-metal? Pretty sloppy term if what you are referring to is steel jackets or steel cores. Pretty much any rifle round legal to hunt deer with in the US will punch through a pistol rated vest without really noticing it is there. A lot of them will do a serious job of trying to get through a rifle rated vest. Some will make it, too. Lots of nations have used tungsten for AP bullet cores. It works better than steel for that. But steel is much cheaper, and can work acceptably well against light armor & vests. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.