Point Shooting

[WhiteFeather93]

How many people practice point shooting from the hip?

I happened upon an article (can't remember the mag) by Mr. Ayoob and it discussed point shooting. That is shooting without utilizing the sights on your weapon. The artical pointed out that most sidearm confrontations happen at a distance of 3 to 5 feet. And involve maybe 3 shots before they end. In the scanarios laid out you had maybe 2 seconds to react and put down the shots. The diagrams showed mostly shooting from the hip. How many people practice that here and in what styles.

My Father(USMC) taught me to draw and turn the pistol so that the magazine well and my right wrist was horizontal and resting on my hip bone. Then using the left hand (when available) to grab my right wrist and anchor it. I find this is a great platform for a steady shot and can usually get a three shot group at 10ft into a 5 inch circle center mass in less than a two seconds. This is probably easier shown than told. I naturally shoot better one handed so if my left hand is "busy" I can still perform the same task just makes a bigger grouping.


How do you practice and in what technieque?

[Rmstn1580]

Don't shoot too close to your clothing. You might get hooked when the slide comes back

[stephen426]

Point shooting is very important to getting shots on target quickly. Once you develop muscle memory, you will be able to point a weapon fairly accurately without the use of sights. I don't really go for the whole shooting from the hip thing though. I prefer to have the gun in front of me since I can use my arm as an index of where my shot will go. Shooting from the hip is good in really close distances where extending your arm will likely result in a gun grab. In that case, the proper technique is to extend your non-shooting hand and push the target back while stepping back with your dominant foot (the side your gun is carried on) to create some distance. At practically contact distance, hip shooting will be faster than bringing your gun up.

I don't know how many encounters actually occur that way so I practice by using an airsoft gun and bringing the gun up quickly from the low ready position shooting without looking at the sights. Try to get an airsoft that is a good replica of your carry gun to build muscle memory. My airsoft is pretty darn accurate and I can get most shots well centered on a little sickly target (6" x 6" from about 20 feet away.) Be sure to have a curtain behind your target or else you may end up with little dents all over your wall. Also, be sure to pick up the little airsoft pellets or else your wife might kick your butt@

One other thing to consider about point shooting. Most people can point very accurately at opject using their index finger. Try pulling the trigger of your gun with your middle finger and having your index finger along the frame of the gun, pointing at the object you are shooting at. Be sure you have a good grip on the gun and do not shoot very poweful guns that way since you may drop the gun.

Good luck!

[FS2K]

The BEST way to practice Point Shooting is using a weapon mounted laser. You pick a point on the wall and sight it in using your irons. (I suggest a wall at least 15' from you.) Turn on the Laser and check its aim. Depending on how you have your laser set-up and what kind of mounting system you are using, the dot may not be exactly on point for that distance, so adjust accordingly.
Then all you do is practice bringing your gun up to shooting position from a relaxed one and simply "point" it at the target spot you've picked out. Then and only then do you actuate the Laser to check aim.

After a surprisingly short amount of time you will start to acquire "muscle memory" or a 'feel' of where your gun is pointing at.

Next step is to take it to the range and try it out. Stagger the distance from you and your targets so you'll have to adjust your point a little from shot to shot.

Of course you don't need a laser to do this. You can always double check the aim using your iron sights. The laser is just a helpful training tool.

I use point aiming with both handguns and my carbines for stuff up to 20-25ft away.

In a sense, using a Red Dot optic is very similar to point shooting, except instead of using the recticle to zero in on your target, you are using mucsle memory to take the place of the visual dot. The way you sight in on your target with a Red Dot is the same way you do while point shooting; you look at your target as your focal point and not your front sight.

Hope this helped.

[chrisandclauida2]

Don't shoot too close to your clothing. You might get hooked when the slide comes back

you might also shoot your self. in serious deadly shoot or die situations it will be all you can do to not shoot your self in the leg foot or put a couple rounds in the ground.
you would be amazed at how many people shoot the ground in these situations before they fully present the weapon.

I'm a firm believer of keeping it simple and not training in many different shoot positions.

what ever works for you. dont say you wont do it either cause about 75 percent of the people under fire for the first time first a round before they are pointing the gun at their target

[Sweatnbullets]

I teach a "Progressions of Point Shooting" course as a Suarez International Specialist Instructor. What I do is teach a seamless integration of sighted and unsighted fire into one "simply shooting" concept. I teach you the ability to get hits while using "see what you need to see" skill sets from logical self defense distances, from any angle (to every position on the face of a clock,) any position (from the hip, all the way through your draw stroke to line of sight,) with whatever movement that is needed to solve the problem.

This is very much a conceptual course based on the realistic dynamics of a gun fight and the fact that "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques......techniques should not dictate anything." Since the "situation" is the dictating factor, one needs to have the over all concepts ingrained at a subconscious level. You just never know what you are going to need to do in order to prevail in a life threatening situation.

My goal is to make the shooter completely versatile and absolutely well rounded......to make the gun just an extension of the real weapon.......the mind.

Concepts over techniques!

[WhiteFeather93]

Sir,

I thank you for your post it is an honor. I would love to take a course like that. I think training is paramount and next to only edgucation. If I could find a way I certainly would attend a course like that however I am held back by funds and time. I wish there were some decent training facilities in PA most of them seem to be either down south or out west. But again I thank you for the information.

[tony pasley]

There are great training videos and you can build targets to train from. I built a set of life size targets to practice with.

[Sweatnbullets]

WhiteFeather, please just call me Roger, "Sir" is what I had to call my dad.

As far as this being a honor, I was just enough of a training junkie to seek out the best point shooters in the country......nothing more. I am just a student, like anyone else that is looking to improve their chances of winning a life threatening encounter. I just happened to discover some really great stuff that I feel obilgated to passing along.

In my last post, I was just trying to convey that there is a whole lot more to shooting than just the sights or shooting from the hip. There are a number of intertwined concepts and continuums that are all dependent on each other and work in conjunction with each other.

I have been known to teach an awful lot over the forums, so my post was not so much about pimping my upcoming courses. What I am saying is that I will answer any questions that you or the members of this forum may like to ask.

I have seen the point shooting method that you describe on a few occasions. It is big with the older point shooters that tend to need to wear heavy jackets do to regional weather conditions. Putting the base plate against the hip or the ribs guarantee that there is enough room for the slide to work and not snag any bulky clothing. Matt Temkin (NYC) teaches this position when retention issues do not allow for the slight extention of the Fairbairn/Sykes "half hip."

I have never seen the "locking in" with the support side hand before. But I am sure that it works.....the concept just has too much common sense for it not to work.

Another way to "lock in" is to place your elbow into the pocket of the gut, right in front of the hip. This is a very stable position and gives a very good centerline. Since the centerline is a key component of the basic geometry of point shooting.....the better the centerline....the further out you can make the hits. My students and I can make hits from half hip with the elbow locked into the gut out to around seven yards. Of course this is much further than would be used in a real life threatening situation. But when a three yard, real world skill can be pushed out to seven on the range.....then you know you own it.

If you would like to read more on Fairbairn/Sykes point shooting method check out the complete pdf of "Shooting To Live" here. http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf

[buckster]

Funny you mentioned that. In the 1998 Shooting Times, there is a good article on page 74. Sheriff Jim Wilson shows how to shoot one handed, from a crouched position, and from the hip. I tried the crouched position yesterday and got 1" at 21 ft. The one handed got me 2". Couldn't do the hip shot because of he bench. These are quick techniques that work when there is little time. The key is getting them first, even if you wing them, you have the upper hand, and have better chance to live to tell about it. Some thing everyone should practice.

[WhiteFeather93]

Very well, Roger if you would like.

I do have some more questions about pointing shooting as I find it to be what you are going to use in 70% of most SD situations.

One of the things I practice is the use of my left hand in really close situations. Such as... When someone is standing directly infront of you (1-2ft) and points a gun at you. Mr. Ayoob had taught a technique in which you side step to the left quickly, using your left hand you bat the gun to the right and bring your gun to the opponents forehead in one motion. I believe I saw this on Guns and Ammo TV? One of those shows. It looked to be very effective. Do you have any input on technique like that?

I have also seen the techniques of Wild Bill and Wyet Erp used. They involve very close distances like mentioned above. But instead of bringing the sidearm up to the opponents head you use your left hand to push there jaw up thus knocking them off ballance and then you deliver a shot to the chest or stomach.

Your thoughts?

[Sweatnbullets]

I find it to be what you are going to use in 70% of most SD situations.

I feel that 70% might be on the low side. IMHO point shooting really shines and is an absolute necessity in four of five major situations.

Low light. Most gun fights occur in low light situations.

When you are behind in the reationary curve. This is where most civilian defenders find themselves.

With the integration of hand to hand. Most gun fights happen within three feet. That is inside of arms length.

During dynamic movement to get off of the X and out of the kill zone.

And for those with physical limitations that need every single "edge" that they can get.

One of the things I practice is the use of my left hand in really close situations. Such as... When someone is standing directly infront of you (1-2ft) and points a gun at you. Mr. Ayoob had taught a technique in which you side step to the left quickly, using your left hand you bat the gun to the right and bring your gun to the opponents forehead in one motion. I believe I saw this on Guns and Ammo TV? One of those shows. It looked to be very effective. Do you have any input on technique like that?

We call that "Drawing against the Drop" (DATD) There are some very sound methods to do this. But they have to be practiced to the point that you can not get it wrong. DATD is a very risky move that should be entered into only in the most extreme situations.....ones where you just know there is no choice but fight or die.

WTS, I am not positive about what Ayoob teaches so I will not lower myself by talking about things that I do not know. So, right now everyone is all gung ho about Tom Cruise and the Collateral clip. I have some real issues with that clip and here is my response to that clip.

(1) Too much reliance on the slapping of the gun

(2) Not getting off of the centerline of the gun

(3) leaning back into the speed rock

On #1 if you watch the clip again you will see that the BG brings the gun right back onto Cruise right after the slap. He has plenty of time to beat Cruise to the shot. You simply must keep the gun from coming back on to you. Simply slapping it away is not near good enough.

On #2 There is no effort to move the body off of the gun. Moving the gun off of you needs to work in concert with moving the body off of the centerline of the gun.....the two go hand in hand. A step forward and a twisting of the body works exactly like an In Quartata....sort of a forward drive In Quartata. Work this move with a more controlled parry of the gun and now we have something. The controlled parry also keeps the gun from being able to be brought back to bare on you. The gun is parried off of you, the body is no longer where it once was, the forward drive has now facilitated better control of the gun to the point that it may actually be pinned against the adversary. The pinning of the gun may even slightly spin the adversary to the point that you are now working on his flanks.

On #3 the leaning back of the speed rock is a "fear oriented" technique that leaves you in a tactically disadvantageous position, if things go wrong. You are already half way on your @$$. With forward drive, even if things do not go perfectly you are in a much better position to recover and prevail.

Guantes technique of shooting from the top of the crooked parrying arm is an excellent position for both speed, accuracy, and retention. You just have to put the work in to ingrain it safely.
************************************************
My good friend Guantes was a street cop in East LA (Los Angeles) for around thiry years. He developed his DATD technique from a technique that he used while having a shotgun shoved onto his nose. Here is what he did to survive and win and the technique that he used and taught since that date. This is a real world techniqe that has a proven record on some of the toughest streets in all of the country.

[Sweatnbullets]

Drawing Against The Drop by Guantes

DATD, which I developed for my own use is presented below, for your persual and comment.

This is a method of drawing and firing against an aggressor who is threatening you with a firearm that is pointed at you , in the 0-3' range and you decide the problem cannot be resolved by any other means. Drawing Against The Drop is not suited to those new to the realm of self defense or firearms, but with an understanding of the principles and practice it can be brought into one's arsenal. It is a high level, high risk manouver for situations where a lethal outcome is likely and the only question is who will prevail. It is based on suprise, speed and angles. This manouver is not meant to replace combatives or disarms but to supplement them.

Many would say that in a close range situation such as we are talking about that combatives or disarms are the answer, not going for your gun. In some cases either of those might be the best option, in others I do not believe it would be. As we age we begin to lose the attributes of self defense. Endurance is probably the first to suffer, followed by strength. It has been my experience that speed, which is essential to Draw Against The Drop, can be maintained longer and easier than the other two. Now let me give you some examples, where I think Drawing Against The Drop would be your best option.

Facing an opponent of say , six foot or larger, around 200 to 240 lbs who is 20 to 30 years old, when you are a male five foot eight, 160 lbs soaking wet and 50+, 60+, etc, in age, or a 5'2" 110 pound female, unless you have a lifetime of martial training and experience, you have a big problem. This problem is only magnified if you have any physical limitation or injury or your opponent recently got out of prison, where he was pumping iron and training for two or three years. I do not believe combatives or disarms would be your best option.

If you are facing an armed aggressor who has one or two unarmed accomplices (not that uncommon), combatives can be a big problem. An soon as you go to a disarm or combatives with the armed aggressor, you can bet the other two will be on you and trying to disable you and help the partner maintain control of his weapon. The rapid elimination of the armed aggressor in an eruption of gunfire may not solve all your problems, although it just may. At the very least, it has eliminated what appeared to be the greatest threat, while leaving you with some capability to deal with the other two, if they stick around. Here again I don't think combatives or disarms would be your best choice.

These are the types of situations where I think DATD outshines other options.

This is not "THE" method for drawing against a gun weilding aggressor, it is "A" method. I can tell you from experience that the principles of this method, if executed properly, do work. It uses simple, easy to learn techniques.

I have not seen this exact method or system described by anyone else so I don't know if anyone else has developed and promotes or teaches the exact same thing. I developed this method for my own use in these types of situations.

Drawing Against The Drop involves five specific and unique elements

1. There is the decision that you will execute a draw against the drop
The actual decision making process I'll leave up to you

2. There is a verbalization to act as a distraction to the aggressor and a que to make your move

3. There is a parry to get the aggressors weapon off line

4. There is a blading of your body to help get it off line from the aggressor's gun in case your parry is not completely
successful

5. There is the quick and efficient access of your weapon and discharge of rounds

Anything that interferes with this works against you, be it clothing, holster, type of draw, weapon platform or anything else

In detail, they are as follows:

The decision process, as I said, I will leave to your own means. Once you have made the decision you need a distraction and a cue. I use a pleading statement like, "Please don't kill me". One word in that sentence is my que. When I hit that word I go.

There are several reasons for this.

One, it gives me a specific go signal for nearly any situation.

Two, the pleading re-enforces the aggressor's feeling of control.

Three, Talking is a distraction and most people instinctively listen for the completion of a thought or sentence, whether intentionally or not, so a good time to attack is while they are focused on the completion of the thought.

The following three elements, the parry, the blading and the draw must begin simultaneously, during the verbalization.

If the blading follows the parry it might be too late

If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late

They must all occur or at least begin simultaneously

In the parry, I prefer a move from my left to right and down with my off hand. There are several reasons for this.

One, if the aggressor is right handed, which is most likely, it puts me to the outside, away from the aggressors off hand.

Second, I prefer to blade my off side forward so my left to right parry is moving the aggressor's gun in the opposite direction of which my body is moving.

Third, most armed ccw people, including me, are right handed. This means that they usually keep their S-O on their left or off side so as to not interfere with their weapons access. Therefore, I do not want to get in the habit of parrying the aggressor's weapon in the direction my S-O would be.

Should the aggressor be left handed the same actions will work quite well and have the same results, although you will be moving towards the inside and the aggressor's off hand. In addition, more effort must be made to control the aggressor's gun hand, as it is not wedged between the two of you. One thing to note is that the shoulder is not dropped during the parry. The reason for this is that the raised shoulder provides some protection for the face and head against the off hand of a left handed aggressor. The head is also lowered slightly, which protects it against a head butt I prefer using the palm as in addition to the parry it provides the possibility of a controlling grab. The preferred striking point with the parry is the juncture of the back of the hand and the forearm ( the wrist) of the aggressor. Striking higher on the arm may allow the wrist of the aggressor to bend back against the parry while a shot is fired. Striking lower, on the weapon, may work, but you may slip off the aggressor's weapon or you may injure your hand.

In the blading , I believe that blading the off side forward has the most advantages.

The blading does three things.

One, it helps get your body off his line of fire if your parry is not completely successful.

Two, it compliments the left to right parry and it makes your gun more difficult to attack in place or during the draw in its rearward position.

Three, it helps protect you from a knee or kick to the groin by the aggressor.

Blading the off side forward can be aided by a step forward with the off foot which is the method I prefer. In addition to aiding the blading the forward step contributes to forward pressure on the aggressor and puts you in a forward stance which will aid in your stability should the aggressor charge.

The drawing of the weapon is obviously an important part of the technique

I realize that climate, NPE's and clothing requirements and preferences will affect, not only garment selection but holster type and location. Regardless of those constraints, any combination that does not allow you to draw your weapon with one hand in an expeditious manner will impair your ability to Draw Against The Drop or draw in any other combative situation. If the imparment is severe, you should forget the idea of Drawing Against The Drop and concentrate on other alternatives or change your carry method.

The draw used is similar to a draw to the #2 Retention position of South Narc and fire. For lack of anything better I would call it The # 2 Parry Position. The difference is that the gun remains more or less in its original #2 position as the torso blades. What results is that due to the bladed torso the butt of the gun ends up near the sternum instead of the ribs. This brings the lower frame of the gun in contact with the parry arm in the area of the inner elbow. This does several important things.

One, it prevents shooting oneself in the arm.

Two, it makes it more difficult for the aggressor to attack your gun with his off hand.

Three, indexing the weapon on your arm will help prevent your pushing an autoloader weapon out of battery into the aggressor thereby causing a failure to fire.

Once the weapon is indexed on your arm, at least three shots should be fired as fast as you can fire them. This indexing prior to firing is extremely important to prevent shooting yourself in the off arm. The entire action, including the three shots should take about one and a half seconds. Whether you use more than three or more shots to com or a zipper, which is easy to do from the arm indexed poisiton is up to you. Should the aggressor go down, I would either follow him down continuing to control his weapon or I would create movement to make a more difficult target, until I was sure he was out of action.

For a left hander, it is a mirror image with the only difference being that you will be moving to the inside on a right hander and to the outside on a lefty.
Guantes

[leadbutt]

White feather, here in just the last couple of years Rodger has taken "PS" further than all the rest of us, it is a very viable system, and i applaud your decision to take it up.

The one biggest secret to using it properly is to remember to lock both the wrist and forearm together.


Dave James

[Sweatnbullets]

White feather, here in just the last couple of years Rodger has taken "PS" further than all the rest of us, it is a very viable system, and i applaud your decision to take it up.

The one biggest secret to using it properly is to remember to lock both the wrist and forearm together.


Dave James

Thanks for the kind words and all the help that you have given me.

I wrote this up a couple of days ago for some guys at another forum. I hope you do not mind the credit.....being as humble as you are.

**************************************************

A "hip" method that is really gaining momentum with the tactically aware guys is Elbow up/Elbow down (EU/ED.) This term is brought to us by Dave James (he goes by Leadbutt here.) Dave was lucky enought to actually trained extensively with some of the most dangerous gunfighters ever, Jelly Bryce and Col Askins, just to name a few.

EU/ED has taken a quarter of a second off of my draw stroke and it did it in just a few months. That is after six years of extensive training in the Modern Techniques. EU/ED is good out to seven yards for me in a static situation, five yards with explosive movement off of the X. But in the real world, it really shines at three yards and in, when urgency is paramount.

EU/ED is basically "half hip" as discribed in the link posted above to "Shooting to Live." The name is really a description of the draw stroke. The elbow comes up as you clear the holster. As soon as you clear the holster you crash the elbow down into the ribs/hip/gut and you take the shot as soon as you make contact.

Where you crash the elbow down to is relative to the proximty of the threat and the retention issues from that proximity. You can crash the elbow down to the ribs behind the hip bone, to the hip bone, and to the "pocket" of the gut that is right in front of the hip bone. The "pocket" gives you an excellent centerline and is the position that can extend the distance out to seven yards. Aquiring your centerline is one of the basic elements to accurate point shooting. The more on the centerline that you are the better your accuracy is at distance.

As Dave mentioned above, the importance of the wrist locked with the forearm gives unbelievable recoil control. When locked in you can work the trigger as fast as you can and make your handgun sound like a machine gun and keep a very tight group. You can easily get a fist size group from five yards, while working the trigger as fast as you can with just a little practice.

[WhiteFeather93]

I can not thank either of you enough for your knowledge! This is some truly amazing information and its gonna take plenty of re-reading to soak it all up. I really wish I could experience these techniques in person. Do either of you offer or know of a training facility that does this sort of training near PA?
Reading is very benificial but I am a very hands on guy. Seeing and doing are the ways that really sink in with me. I am not quite understanding the locking of the forearm and wrist. Does this mean to keep both inline with eachother? I have always been taught to keep my pointer finger inline with my forearm. I shoot and carry a 1911 so it is paramount that I do not limp wrist but keep a firm grip. Is that what you meant by "locking in."?

I want to thank you again for sharing this is very benificial and I hope you have more input.

[Sweatnbullets]

Whitefeather, I will tell my mentor 7677 about this thread. He is in Ohio and planning to run some courses in PA.

[timothy75]

Here are some ideas I had.

1. Dont ever let anyone get to within 1-3 feet of you.

2. Theres no need to stand firing from the hip when you could be backing up.

3. You can improve your sight picture throughout the fight. Say first shot is from the hip standing, second shot while backing up gun is indexed on threat, third shot front sight is on threat while continuing to back up toward cover.

Just some ideas.

[matthew temkin]

Yes..I believe that 7677 will be running a class this September in PA.
I'll probably stop by for a looksee.

[WhiteFeather93]

I'm sorry if I'm beating this to death please say so if I am but I have more questions...

you crash the elbow down into the ribs/hip/gut and you take the shot as soon as you make contact.

I'm trying to picture this in my head. Do you raise the elbow slowly? So as to properly ensure the you have unholstered correctly or is this one fluid fast motion?

Also being as most of these techniques are explained with the gun on your hip how do you carry? What holster? Have you had any experience with a Serpa? Do they aid hinder in these techniques?

I conceal and open carry about 50/50 these days. Really depends on the situation. But how do you carry and to what extent does one carry help or hinder the techniques described above?

[Sweatnbullets]

whitefeather, EU/ED is all about speed. It is a the fastest way to get hits on board, at logical distances, that I have ever seen. It took me over five years and around thirty course to get a consistant 1.0 second drawstroke with a flash sight picture. It took me just a couple of months to get a .75 out of EU/ED

WTS it is a very fast draw stroke!

EU/ED works the exact same way while carrying at the 4:00, 3:00, appendix, small of the back, cross draw, and from a shoulder holster. It may turn into a "elbow out/elbow down, but it really is the same exact concept.

I used to carry at the 4:00, but I know carry appendix. Appendix is just plain fast and sure. But appendix is something that should be worked up to. It must be made sound with dry practice and airsoft before you go to it full time training.

Hopefully 7677 will chime in here. He has experience with the serpa.

Here is another of my articles to take into consideration.

About As Concise As I Can Get
________________________________________
I had someone ask me how you point shoot with a rifle recently. So instead of running down a bunch of techniques, I just explained the concept of point shooting. As Matt recently pointed out, point shooting is not so much a bunch of techniques as it is a simple fluid concept.

This is about as concise as I get, while still explaining exactly what is done. The more that I think about it, the more that I like it. Here is what I wrote.

*******************************************************

Point shooting with a long arm is the exact same concept of point shooting with a handgun. The basics, all comes down to basic geometry. The advanced application, all comes down to hand/eye coordination that is the bi-product of the basic geometry.

Basic Geometry

Squaring up to the threat

Shooting from your centerline

Gun parallel to the ground

These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly.

But this is stance and grip dependent and does not bring out the real benefits of point shooting

Advanced Application

Is simply the hand/eye coordination that is a bi-product of the basic geometry.

The centerline is replaced by the visual centerline. Meaning that where ever you look, if the gun is on your visual centerline, you have taken care of the "squaring up" and the "centerline" portion of the basic geometry. The vertical alignment is now taken care of.

This leaves the horizontal alignment. The "parallel to the ground" is your "default." Hand/eye coordination is now a bi-product off of this known "default."

Just focus on the desired point of impact and your mind, eyes, and body will make the adjustments to get the hits.

It really is that simple!

This covers from line of sight all the way to "from the hip".....and everything in between.

[David Armstrong]

This may not fit into the narrower parameters of the thread, but I think it is a good place to mention a bit of history. It is worth noting that for a long time those of us that advocated point-shooting in various forms were ravaged by so many trainers, including some of those who now try to present themselves as some sort of gurus of point-shooting. After literally years of being laughed at, told we didn't know what we talking about, and that point-shooting would never work, it is interesting to see folks like Matt Temkin and others who fought the good fight for literally decades finally being recognized. People like Matt, brownie, 7677, swacje41, and others have been reviled and even banned from various forums for advocacy of a very simple idea. That idea was, and still is, that combat/fighting skills and range/competition skills are not always the same, and we should look to actual combat to determine if something is effective or not. Let's all take a moment to remember these folks that spend so long as unrecognized voices in the wilderness as the true keepers of the flame that they are. Point shooting, one-handed shooting, integrated skills, etc. were being advocated long ago, but most were not willing to listen. That those are now part of the cutting edge of training is a lesson we need to remember.

[7677]

David,
I thank you for the kind words and you are absolutely correct.

Whitefeather,
Roger contacted me and I'm working on arranging a class in PA for this September when I know the details I'll let you know.

I have mixed feeling about the Surpa good design when they work but I have seen a lot of problems with the holster holding up in classes and the most common problem is with the pin that holds the retention button in place working loose causing the retention button to fall off at the worst of times. I fixed four out of the five agent's surpa holster at the last class so I fixed the problem on the fifth holster before it happened.

[leadbutt]

White feather: EU/ED,, Think of the arm as a pitcher pump handle, as the hand grasp the weapon{you decide weather its a wrapped grip or finger pull}the wrist is locked and the forearm is tightened there by locking into the forearm, the hand is closed and a death grip is applied

As you draw the pump handle comes up drawing water,this is the elbow rising up alongside the body,NOT FLAPPING OUT IN THE AIR! EU!!!

ED: All of the rest of the movement is done from the shoulder and upper arm, Push the handle down: drop the shoulder slightly and force the upper arm down , as this is done the forearm and wrist are slid toward the front NEXT TO THE BODY!,Or as close as possible,

Now as the ELBOW contacts the rib cage the weapon is fore ward of the belt line and a shot is possible, you can continue to push fore ward and lock the elbow into the hollow of the side or into the front of the gut if skinny enough.

While this is done shots can continue to be fired.

The whole time this is happening you should have a death focus on the body part you wish to hit


Rodger,7767 and MATT can all give a way better demo then I can type it, but hope this gives you a point of reference.

One of the best ways I have seen this practiced came to me a week ago from a young man I showed it too.

He uses a semi with a laser, stands in front of a full Lent mirror, places a piece of tape at the belly button hight and chest high, draws and fires until he is hitting the taped marks.

[Sweatnbullets]

Let's all take a moment to remember these folks that spend so long as unrecognized voices in the wilderness as the true keepers of the flame that they are. Point shooting, one-handed shooting, integrated skills, etc. were being advocated long ago, but most were not willing to listen. That those are now part of the cutting edge of training is a lesson we need to remember.

Nice post Dave! I always talk about the "four of five guys that took on the world." That would be Matt, 7677, swacje41, and you Dave. I was there.....lurking.....keeeping my mouth shut....and learning what pearls of wisdom I could gleen through all of that static.

Brownie and I joined into the fight at the same time. By then the battles had already been fought and the war was as good as won. We just batted clean up.

Thanks to the "four or five guys that took on the world." You guys did it! Everyone is now desperately trying to play catch up.

But I will always remember where this all started at and who were the guys that made it happen.