Winchester primers?

[Jammer Six]

Just got back from the range.

My local supplier was out of Federal 150s, so I ended up with Winchester WLP's.

I also changed powder, so I started over with a minimum load, and loaded fifteen rounds of two minimum loads, and headed to the range with thirty rounds.

Out of thirty rounds, four of them didn't fire.

That is, the hammer fell, but the primer didn't fire- upon reloading and firing again, they all fired.

Is this common to Winchester primers?

Other details: a completely stock SA milspec, Bullseye powder and Berry's 200 SWC. Although I don't think any of that should make a difference.

I'm very disappointed, and I have two thousand of these!

[918v]

Federals are more sensitive. Your SA might have a mechanical problem. How does it fire CCI? Or maybe your lot of WLP is the crappy one from years back.

[Unclenick]

Since you were loading at the range, is it possible you didn't seat the anvils hard up against the bottom of the primer pockets? Every primer make seems to have a different feel, and while I never thought of Winchesters as being hard to seat, they don't feel exactly the same as the Federal, so could that have fooled you?

The stock SA should work fine with the Winchesters, and I know a number of people who use them in match competition without problems. I would, however, check your firing pin protrusion, just to be sure. There's no chance someone put a reduced mainspring in the gun to lighten the trigger? Thatis, you're sure the mainspring is stock, too?

Nick

[Jammer Six]

Yes, I'm sure about the spring- I had a trigger job done, but I had it done by Springfield.

I wasn't loading at the range, I loaded at home, on a Square Deal B.

I've used it for thousands of rounds without problems, but this is the first time I've used anything but Federal primers. I've used both 150s and Match 150s, so maybe I'll investigate the seating issue.

I'd hate to thing there was something wrong with my 1911.

So not seating completely will make a primer harder to light off?

Thanks, guys!

[gb_in_ga]

So not seating completely will make a primer harder to light off?

Yep. I had that problem with SWMBO's S&W 15 when using winchester primers. It seems that the prior owner had apparently tried to do a "poor man's trigger job" on it by backing off of the strain screw. It had problems as you said when the primers weren't completely seated -- but only on that revolver. When fired from other revolvers, they would work just fine.

I found that I could either make sure to completely seat the primers and that would solve the problem, or that I could tighten down the strain screw to where it was supposed to be, and that also solved the problem. I opted to implement the latter.

[Dave R]

So not seating completely will make a primer harder to light off?

That's right. The firing pin impact seats the primer the rest of the way, without crushing it. So the primer doesn't ignite.

Not saying that's the cause for sure, but its a likely possibility.

Two ways you can check for high primers:
1. Eyeball. Look across the bottom of the case and see if the primer protrudes.
2. Stand the case on a flat surface. The case won't sit steady if it has a high primer.

You have to do these tests before you shoot 'em. Once the firing pin hits, it'll seat any that were high. They just may not pop.

[gb_in_ga]

DaveR:

The problem that we had with SWMBO's model 15 went even beyond that. All of the primers were seated such that your checks wouldn't have caught them. Some of them were seated flush with the base of the case, and some of them were being seated completely in the primer pocket. Not the same thing. The only ones that would work right were those that were completely seated in the primer pocket, not just flush. There was still enough travel to make for unreliable ignition even when the primers were flush in the pocket. The way to check is to run your finger over it, it should be "countersunk", not just flush.

[Unclenick]

Ditto on the last comment, but make a little allowance for some brands of cases selling mixed lots in a bulk box or bag, and therefore, some primer pockets not being the same depth.

I, too, run a Square Deal B, and have encountered problems with uneven seating depth. Mine wouldn't seat CCI primers uniformly in some brands of brass; IMI in particular. Federals are fine. Winchesters, I'm don't know about because those I've used I've seated with a Lee Autopirme or my K&M tool. Put on a full-face shield and take an Autoprime and, pointing the thing away from your face (or anyone else's) press the ram against your finished rounds and see if you feel any of them seat a little more deeply?

I got one of the Dillon primer pocket swaging tools and now run all my new and found .45 ACP brass through that before reloading it. That takes care of the depth and uniformity problem.

Nick

[WESHOOT2]

I find best consistency when the anvil is lightly compressed; I can accomplish that with a RCBS Hand-Priming tool, or on my XL650.

Revolver ignition can be a different story......and did Springfield Armory install a lightweight titanium firing pin?

[Mal H]

I agree with WESHOOT2. A hand priming tool will give you a better feel for how hard the primer is being seated. I don't mind even seeing a little round mark on the primer cup where the piston has pressed on it. IOW, seat them all the way and then a wee tad more. Doing that, I have never had a Winchester primer fail, and that includes a Vaquero with a 2 1/2 lb trigger pull (with standard springs).

WLP's are my primer of choice because they can be used successfully for regular and magnum primer applications.

10 to 1 primer seating is your problem.

[pumpkinheaver]

The not fully seated primer issue discussed above and brass that is too short for proper headspacing are two things that can cause this. It's not the primers. I have used 30k of win primers in the last few years and never had a problem.

[Guy B. Meredith]

I've used nothing but WSP. Most revolver competitors use Federal when they do the trick thing with the mainspring, but one friend shot a couple of cylinders of my WSP primed reloads with nary a miss.

I have had rounds fail to fire, but I do think that was due to worn cases allowing primers to back out with recoil. My Hornady LNL sets them deep. They all fire on the second shot.

[Dave AA]

My experience with Winchester primers may be interesting.

I bought a bunch a couple years ago, they went bang every time. Stopped using them for no particular reason. The CCI was probably easier to reach.
I used some from that same bunch this week, lot's of duds.

The settings on my press haven't changed once.

[Jammer Six]

Well, over the weekend I loaded and shot 200 more rounds using WLP's. I made an effort to seat each primer hard and completely.

Out of those 200, I had 8 failures to fire, 7 of which fired on the second attempt.

So.

Given that Federal primers are easier to seat, why do you guys who swear by WLPs and use them exclusively do so?

Why would you use a primer that takes more effort to seat correctly?

[Ken O]

I like Federals, but the reason I dont buy them much is because they take up so much room the way they are packaged. A sleave (5000) of Remingtons takes up about the same space as 1000 Feds. I bought two sleaves of WLP that I'm using now, and have never had a dud. As far as that goes, I go though about two sleaves a year and have used Feds, Rems, CCI and WW, and just havent had a problem. Maybe you got a bad lot, or something else is wrong. You would see it in a heartbeat on these forums if there was a problem.

[Mal H]

I agree with that observation, Ken O. I also like Federal primers, but after buying 1000 one time and seeing that they took up about the same space as 5000 Win primers, I decided against buying them in bulk.

I wonder why Federal thinks there has to be so much, essentially empty, space between their primers?

Jammer Six - I would love to eyeball your setup and especially the pistol up close. But that, obviously, isn't possible. There is definitely something wrong, and I sincerely doubt that it is the Winchester primers. A 4% failure rate is atrocious and very unusual. Actually a .1% failure rate attributable solely to primers is unusual.

[clayking]

I've never used anything but Winchester primers, very rare to have a misfire, in fact, can't even remember the last one. As far as loading them fully is concerned, on my dillion 650, it's simply a full stroke on the lever and they fully seat. I do have one revolver, in for repair, that will fail to fire one ever so often, but then it is the gun, it's a Taurus, I've come to expect the worst, so I'll never be disappointed . I also load shotgun shells, upteen thousands upon thousands and don't believe I've ever had a primer fail...................ck

[Jammer Six]

Well, okay, Mal.

But the 8 this weekend were evenly split between two Springfield Milspecs.

One is stock, the only change to it is a trigger job done to it at the factory, by Springfield, the other is highly modified, the trigger job was done by Chuck Rogers.

[mjrodney]

A prominent west coast gunsmith, whose name appears in this forum occasionally, told me that of the big 3 brands, Federal, Winchester and CCI, Federal is the most sensitive, Winchester a close second and CCI third.

When he performs an action job, and lightens your hammer/striker fall, he ensures that you understand the characteristics of each primer brand.

Mal H said ".......I wonder why Federal thinks there has to be so much, essentially empty, space between their primers?.....".

Likely because of this sensitivity issue.

Lee Precision recommends that only Winchester and CCI primers be used in their Auto Prime products, and they purposely leave out Federal from the recommendation because of the risk of detonation in the tray.

[Superhornet]

When a primer fails to fire on the first firing pin strike but fires on the second, it is not the primer, it is the seating technique....

[Mike Irwin]

When I first started reloading (I was about 14) I loaded up a box of .30-06 for my hunting rifle.

Of the 20, IIRC about half failed to fire on the first shot, but fired fine on the second. I simply didn't seat the primers hard enough. Once I figured that out, I was good to go.

Since then I've used many many thousand Winchester primers with no problems. I prefer them to other primers.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

Been hand loading for many years, I use CCI and Winchester exclusively,
Thousands of rounds fired, SO FAR, not one single primer that didn't fire. I use hand primer ALWAYS. I would suggest the problem is seating depth, not the primers, but I have had some remington primers that failed to fire about 15 or 20 years ago, but vast improvements have been made in all the companies primers since then.

[Thesenator]

Sixty thousand plus Winchester primers through my press and I've yet to have one fail to fire in any of my guns.

I suspect its not the primers.

[Buckythebrewer]

Im with the people mentioning the possibility of seating issues.I have had the exact same thing happen when I switched from winchester to federal primers.I had 4 missfires in my ar15 out of 20 rounds.I said at 1st to myself"I should have waited until I could get some more winchester primers(my favorite so far) .Then I looked at what I did in my reloading and realized I forgot to clean the primer pockets(also It could have been because the federal primers are harder and need more pressure to seat properly,,seating feel is Another reason I like hand priming tools the best).I have never had a failure to fire since.I have fired at least 1000 federal and many 1000's of winchesters and I believe (at least) 9 times out of 10 it is the reloaders error..Could it be dirty pockets or maybe over reaming of the pockets depth??,Or maybe(with the winchester primers) your seating them TO hard(easier to do with winchesters because the cups seem to be softer)..I was wondering if you have been over crushing them were you are used to the harder(and slightly stiffer seating) federal primers...Just some thoughts and my experience with this problem.Good luck.