First ever failure in my SP-01. Thoughts? - Page 2

wild cat mccane · June 15, 2019, 07:48 AM

Defiantly don't listen to the guy that said CZs have a common, known, and documented issue of in the barrel leade/throat...

If you google "cz barrel throat", is anything positive found? Nope.

It may be nothing already stated. It might be your barrel, like all CZ barrels, could need to be reamed to accept all 9mm ammo.

S&B appear more round in the front than pointed compared to others, right?

It's your CZ barrel.

Take the barrel out. Drop a S&B round into it. Does it call all the way in, with a metallic clunk? if you have to push it in at all, you owe me a chocolate shake

TunnelRat · June 15, 2019, 07:55 AM

I've owned at least half a dozen CZs. None of them had issues with S&B. It's what the factory uses as test ammo, at least on my examples from the test targets. If they all have this issue, then I should have won the lottery by now.

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wild cat mccane · June 15, 2019, 08:40 AM

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78374.0

Yep. You really are that lucky.

It's a known issue. The SP-01 and Shadows are most known for the issue.

"The distance from the headspacing step in the chamber and the beginning of the rifling is shorter in CZs than most (not all) pistols. This means that some ammo, depending on profile, might not fully chamber and will jam the bullet into the rifling"

TunnelRat · June 15, 2019, 08:43 AM

It's fun when you include the whole quote:

"The distance from the headspacing step in the chamber and the beginning of the rifling is shorter in CZs than most (not all) pistols. This means that some ammo, depending on profile, might not fully chamber and will jam the bullet into the rifling, which increases pressure unnecessarily and is not a good idea with stout-loaded defense rounds, or it will outright hold the pistol out of battery and render it useless. This worst case scenario is not a common scenario, and most quality JHP defense ammo will work in a CZ just fine. ALL of your commercial round nose FMJ plinking and target ammo will work just fine."

There are also people in that very thread that mention not having issues, and describe the issues as being more common with longer 147 gr bullets or truncated cones, such as on a defensive JHP. That's not what the OP is shooting.

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wild cat mccane · June 15, 2019, 08:47 AM

because...

"What the OP was referencing was the typically short CZ "throat" or leade, as I described in my previous post. Compared to a Glock or M&P or Ruger or HK or Sig, etc., the max OAL that is capable of fully chambering with a particular bullet with a CZ is shorter than the others listed. This is a dimensional mechanical limit, and it's not about feeding reliability. It's about the cartridge getting so long that it jams into the rifling and/or prevents the slide from going all the way into battery and/or pushes the bullet further into the case (setback), all three effects of which are undesirable, and these happen despite that fact that the cartridge fed into the chamber properly. Tuning OAL to reliable feeding is a different matter, and I wouldn't say CZ pistols like them longer than average there. I would just say your CZ didn't like those bullets that short. Always push test new bullets and start from there.

"

All what I said from the get go.

It's a known CZ issue. I bet 10 donuts everyone in here is wrong about springs, mags, etc.

Does the S&B bullet *THUNK* all the way into position with the barrel out of the gun without pushing? If not....I'd like 10 French crullers please.

TunnelRat · June 15, 2019, 08:50 AM

I'd suggest the OP read all the posts in that thread.

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wild cat mccane · June 15, 2019, 09:20 AM

I suggest the OP search that forum and see how often this is a problem compared to their knowledge of this is an issue with other brands (ie, it's not).

Meh

Good talk. No donuts yet.

TunnelRat · June 15, 2019, 09:44 AM

Donuts? Okey dokey.

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farmboy · June 26, 2019, 11:09 PM

This feels more like a “pile on” thread than an informative one.

I have a P-07 with nearly 1000 trouble free rounds without cleaning, other than a little spray ‘n wipe.

I have an SP-01 Tactical (new) with nearly 500 trouble free rounds with the same maintenance as the P-07.

Does that mean that all CZ pistols are perfect?
Nope.

Across a range of forums and hobbies, do guys tend to pile on to a complaint thread, regardless of whether it’s cars, guns, or audio equipment?
Yep.

Do a little more research other than just this forum, and I’m betting you’ll find a more balanced view.

Pond, James Pond · June 27, 2019, 06:40 AM

Quote:

It's about the cartridge getting so long that it jams into the rifling and/or prevents the slide from going all the way into battery and/or pushes the bullet further into the case (setback), all three effects of which are undesirable, and these happen despite that fact that the cartridge fed into the chamber properly.

That’s not what happening to mine. It jams when the case run
Is still in the mag air gas barely left it and the case is on the ramp.

If it pull the slide back a fraction the bullet flips up into the chamber and the slide into battery. Last time at the range this only occurred with one mag. Not my other 3.

Tha

Bartholomew Roberts · June 27, 2019, 08:40 AM

In my experience, problems with seni-autos are almost always:

1. Magazine
2. Ammo
3. Operator error

If I can’t diagnosis the problem at a glance, then that’s the order I proceed on checking things (that’s where the two is one, one is none philosophy comes in handy as well since popping the magazine into another of the same type of firearm is step one usually.)

Like you, my problems frequently occur under time pressure where you don’t get to do a nice, rational evaluation of the stoppage, so one thing I like to do is mark mags so I can narrow down the things I need to check.

kenny53 · June 27, 2019, 09:30 AM

OP, just wondering if you were having a bad day and maybe limp wristed?

Pond, James Pond · June 27, 2019, 10:20 AM

Not especially. As I said in the OP it all happened in one competition. Admittedly it coincided with a new batch of ammo but it also seems to be confined to a single mag.

Pure coincidence that a mag spring gave up the just the time I bought new ammo? I’ve been known to have that sort of luck!!

Bart Noir · June 27, 2019, 05:19 PM

Quote:

it’s time to contact CZ-USA customer support

I know you are offering good advice, for most of us. But Mr Pond is living a lot closer to the original factory than to anything in the USA.

And yes, I think it was a magazine issue.

Bart Noir

wild cat mccane · June 28, 2019, 07:23 AM

Plunk testing it costs nothing and makes me look silly for free...

wild cat mccane · June 28, 2019, 07:29 AM

My SP-01 Tactical experience. Though I sold it quick after buying it and two range trips, clearly my money went to the brand that I just saying happens to have a potential issue known to the CZ community.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=590562

Fishbed77 · June 28, 2019, 07:43 AM

Quote:

The SP-01 is not a 'combat/police' pistol, and not engineered for severe reliability

CZ's website says the SP-01 was engineered specifically as a military and law enforcement duty sidearm. True - that's marketing, but my understanding is that the SP-01 is basically a CZ-75 with a rail, a beavertail, and a few other minor changes.

Can't speak to the SP-01, but I don't recall ever having a malfunction in thousands of rounds through my CZ-75B (a 1993-production surplus pistol) or P-07.

cslinger · June 28, 2019, 07:48 AM

Counter point - my thoughts on the SP01

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=585851

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...highlight=cz75

Both guns have seen a lot of varied ammo through them since the above without incident. I do usually run MecGar mags though in all my CZs.

Hey James,
When all said and done let us know what you figure out. I am leaning towards a bad mag/mag spring as well.

Pond, James Pond · June 28, 2019, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Plunk testing it costs nothing and makes me look silly for free...

What’s a plunk test, please?

Dropping a cartridge in the the chamber of a barrel held vertically or something?

Pond, James Pond · June 28, 2019, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Hey James,
When all said and done let us know what you figure out. I am leaning towards a bad mag/mag spring as well.

I will.

I think my only option right now is just discard that mag and do another ammo heavy range trip. If nothing happens then it seems likely it’s a mag issue.

cslinger · June 28, 2019, 09:03 AM

Basically dropping a round into your removed barrel. It should fall all the way in and sort of make a plunk sound.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...unk-test/99389

Pond, James Pond · June 29, 2019, 05:20 PM

Well, I did the plunk test and the round fell in flush and rotated without resistance so I think the cartridge OAL fine for my chamber.

2wheelwander · June 29, 2019, 07:09 PM

None of my CZ's have ever had a failure

wild cat mccane · June 30, 2019, 07:55 AM

Welp I was wrong.

The SP-01 and Shadows can have a throat issue. The plunk test you did with the ammo that was causing the problems shows it's not that issue.

jetinteriorguy · June 30, 2019, 11:53 AM

I too have experienced the short throat issue with all five of the CZ's I've owned. Since I don't shoot factory ammo, anytime I try a new bullet I first seat a bullet long in a piece of processed but unloaded brass. Then I plunk and seat until it plunks reliably, then I seat it .010" deaper to account for bullet variations. At this point I begin my load workup. I also use an undersize sizing die for added reliability. Until I learned this I had problems with my CZ's and my M&P, but once I went to this method I've had 100% reliability in all my guns. The only semi auto that's eaten everything no matter what has been my LC9s, this is the only pistol I've ever owned that's been 100% reliable out of the box for thousands of rounds.

June 15, 2019, 07:55 AM	#27
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	I've owned at least half a dozen CZs. None of them had issues with S&B. It's what the factory uses as test ammo, at least on my examples from the test targets. If they all have this issue, then I should have won the lottery by now. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk Last edited by TunnelRat; June 15, 2019 at 08:01 AM.

June 27, 2019, 10:20 AM	#38
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Not especially. As I said in the OP it all happened in one competition. Admittedly it coincided with a new batch of ammo but it also seems to be confined to a single mag. Pure coincidence that a mag spring gave up the just the time I bought new ammo? I’ve been known to have that sort of luck!! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

June 28, 2019, 07:48 AM	#43
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Counter point - my thoughts on the SP01 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=585851 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...highlight=cz75 Both guns have seen a lot of varied ammo through them since the above without incident. I do usually run MecGar mags though in all my CZs. Hey James, When all said and done let us know what you figure out. I am leaning towards a bad mag/mag spring as well. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

June 28, 2019, 09:03 AM	#46
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Basically dropping a round into your removed barrel. It should fall all the way in and sort of make a plunk sound. https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...unk-test/99389 __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

June 29, 2019, 05:20 PM	#47
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Well, I did the plunk test and the round fell in flush and rotated without resistance so I think the cartridge OAL fine for my chamber. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

June 15, 2019, 07:48 AM	#26
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	Defiantly don't listen to the guy that said CZs have a common, known, and documented issue of in the barrel leade/throat... If you google "cz barrel throat", is anything positive found? Nope. It may be nothing already stated. It might be your barrel, like all CZ barrels, could need to be reamed to accept all 9mm ammo. S&B appear more round in the front than pointed compared to others, right? It's your CZ barrel. Take the barrel out. Drop a S&B round into it. Does it call all the way in, with a metallic clunk? if you have to push it in at all, you owe me a chocolate shake

June 15, 2019, 08:40 AM	#28
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78374.0 Yep. You really are that lucky. It's a known issue. The SP-01 and Shadows are most known for the issue. "The distance from the headspacing step in the chamber and the beginning of the rifling is shorter in CZs than most (not all) pistols. This means that some ammo, depending on profile, might not fully chamber and will jam the bullet into the rifling"

June 15, 2019, 08:43 AM	#29
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	It's fun when you include the whole quote: "The distance from the headspacing step in the chamber and the beginning of the rifling is shorter in CZs than most (not all) pistols. This means that some ammo, depending on profile, might not fully chamber and will jam the bullet into the rifling, which increases pressure unnecessarily and is not a good idea with stout-loaded defense rounds, or it will outright hold the pistol out of battery and render it useless. This worst case scenario is not a common scenario, and most quality JHP defense ammo will work in a CZ just fine. ALL of your commercial round nose FMJ plinking and target ammo will work just fine." There are also people in that very thread that mention not having issues, and describe the issues as being more common with longer 147 gr bullets or truncated cones, such as on a defensive JHP. That's not what the OP is shooting. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

June 15, 2019, 08:47 AM	#30
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	because... "What the OP was referencing was the typically short CZ "throat" or leade, as I described in my previous post. Compared to a Glock or M&P or Ruger or HK or Sig, etc., the max OAL that is capable of fully chambering with a particular bullet with a CZ is shorter than the others listed. This is a dimensional mechanical limit, and it's not about feeding reliability. It's about the cartridge getting so long that it jams into the rifling and/or prevents the slide from going all the way into battery and/or pushes the bullet further into the case (setback), all three effects of which are undesirable, and these happen despite that fact that the cartridge fed into the chamber properly. Tuning OAL to reliable feeding is a different matter, and I wouldn't say CZ pistols like them longer than average there. I would just say your CZ didn't like those bullets that short. Always push test new bullets and start from there. " All what I said from the get go. It's a known CZ issue. I bet 10 donuts everyone in here is wrong about springs, mags, etc. Does the S&B bullet THUNK all the way into position with the barrel out of the gun without pushing? If not....I'd like 10 French crullers please.

June 15, 2019, 08:50 AM	#31
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	I'd suggest the OP read all the posts in that thread. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

June 15, 2019, 09:20 AM	#32
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	I suggest the OP search that forum and see how often this is a problem compared to their knowledge of this is an issue with other brands (ie, it's not). Meh Good talk. No donuts yet.

June 15, 2019, 09:44 AM	#33
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	Donuts? Okey dokey. Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

June 26, 2019, 11:09 PM	#34
farmboy Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 261	This feels more like a “pile on” thread than an informative one. I have a P-07 with nearly 1000 trouble free rounds without cleaning, other than a little spray ‘n wipe. I have an SP-01 Tactical (new) with nearly 500 trouble free rounds with the same maintenance as the P-07. Does that mean that all CZ pistols are perfect? Nope. Across a range of forums and hobbies, do guys tend to pile on to a complaint thread, regardless of whether it’s cars, guns, or audio equipment? Yep. Do a little more research other than just this forum, and I’m betting you’ll find a more balanced view.

June 27, 2019, 08:40 AM	#36
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	In my experience, problems with seni-autos are almost always: 1. Magazine 2. Ammo 3. Operator error If I can’t diagnosis the problem at a glance, then that’s the order I proceed on checking things (that’s where the two is one, one is none philosophy comes in handy as well since popping the magazine into another of the same type of firearm is step one usually.) Like you, my problems frequently occur under time pressure where you don’t get to do a nice, rational evaluation of the stoppage, so one thing I like to do is mark mags so I can narrow down the things I need to check.

June 27, 2019, 09:30 AM	#37
kenny53 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2015 Location: My back yard Posts: 971	OP, just wondering if you were having a bad day and maybe limp wristed?

June 28, 2019, 07:23 AM	#40
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	Plunk testing it costs nothing and makes me look silly for free...

June 28, 2019, 07:29 AM	#41
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	My SP-01 Tactical experience. Though I sold it quick after buying it and two range trips, clearly my money went to the brand that I just saying happens to have a potential issue known to the CZ community. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=590562

June 29, 2019, 07:09 PM	#48
2wheelwander Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2018 Posts: 539	None of my CZ's have ever had a failure

June 30, 2019, 07:55 AM	#49
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,627	Welp I was wrong. The SP-01 and Shadows can have a throat issue. The plunk test you did with the ammo that was causing the problems shows it's not that issue.

June 30, 2019, 11:53 AM	#50
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,176	I too have experienced the short throat issue with all five of the CZ's I've owned. Since I don't shoot factory ammo, anytime I try a new bullet I first seat a bullet long in a piece of processed but unloaded brass. Then I plunk and seat until it plunks reliably, then I seat it .010" deaper to account for bullet variations. At this point I begin my load workup. I also use an undersize sizing die for added reliability. Until I learned this I had problems with my CZ's and my M&P, but once I went to this method I've had 100% reliability in all my guns. The only semi auto that's eaten everything no matter what has been my LC9s, this is the only pistol I've ever owned that's been 100% reliable out of the box for thousands of rounds.