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Old November 13, 2020, 12:26 AM   #51
Pond, James Pond
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Going to the example given, I fail to see why anyone would countenance a bunch of people congregating with bats and sticks either.

I don’t see how either guns or bats have any place at a voting centre, in plain view. If you have. CCW licence and opt to carry, fine. Otherwise?

And if it creates an atmosphere of intimidation I think people will think twice about using the 1st amendment rights with impunity which, for me, is the most important of all the civil liberties.

A constitution is only as worthwhile as the degree it can be applied or enjoyed.

My €0.02.
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Old November 14, 2020, 10:55 AM   #52
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The 2nd amendment doesn't say we have the right to keep and bear arms in good taste.
No, but as responsible gun owners we should certainly strive for it and not show support to those that display irresponsible gun ownership. IMHO, this is what has eroded much of the positive sentiment towards gun ownership lately. Far too many folks insisting that any from of gun ownership is a God given right. Not being critical of poor and irresponsible examples of gun ownership means we condone it, and puts us all into the same category. No different than the support I see here for those who cry SSS on the hunting forum. To not chastise those comments means we endorse them.

Funny how so all of those threads started here about open carry, the overall sentiment is that folks only do it to flaunt or intimidate others, yet when it comes to doing it in front of polling centers it is just exercising our RKBA.
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Old November 14, 2020, 11:42 AM   #53
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The second amendment starts out with "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA" which almost every state has in the form of NATIONAL GUARD. To imply that an armed mob that wants to overturn an election or a mask mandate is a well regulated militia, is ABSURD. I believe that most states have laws against vigilantes. If we as a country allow any pissed off group with guns to intimidate other people, we will soon descend into tyranny. Democracy is a fragile, sometimes messy way to run a country but guns to gain political power will kill our democracy. Bringing a gun to an argument (political or religious) is not an expression of a right, it is a threat. When our leaders (or our forum members) condone such action, we are moving much closer to tyranny. Grant
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Old November 14, 2020, 12:28 PM   #54
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Excellent point Grant. I don't believe any of those self proclaimed "Militias" that stalked the Ballot counting stations or voting locations are or ever were well regulated.
That would, by definition, mean the group had received organized training and discipline. Legitimate regulated training too, not just running around a gravel pit yelling and firing an SKS from ones hip at tin cans.

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Old November 14, 2020, 12:59 PM   #55
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Far too many folks insisting that any from of gun ownership is a God given right.
Gun ownership IS a fundamental natural right (aka God given), and not enough people are insisting that. However, it is important to make a clear distinction between the right to own weapons and what you do with them in public. And not enough people are doing that.

Quote:
Not being critical of poor and irresponsible examples of gun ownership means we condone it, and puts us all into the same category.
Again, here, I believe that "ownership" is not the correct word. "Behavior" is the proper word.

Quote:
The second amendment starts out with "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA" which almost every state has in the form of NATIONAL GUARD.
The Second Amendment does begin with those words. And each state does have a National Guard. This is true, but I don't see it as relevant here.

Quote:
To imply that an armed mob that wants to overturn an election or a mask mandate is a well regulated militia, is ABSURD.
I will agree that any armed mob, and in particular the armed group under discussion is not a well regulated militia, even if they use the word militia when identifying themselves. No one in this thread has said they were, or implied such, that I can see.

Let me be clear, I am not condoning or endorsing an armed mob, or any mob, of any ideology, outside a polling/ballot counting place.

What I am upholding is our right of FREE SPEECH, which includes speech we may find objectionable, distasteful, or just wrong, until it violates existing law.

I hope we can all see the distinction.
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Old November 14, 2020, 02:00 PM   #56
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Just because something is legal and within one's Constitutional Rights... doesn't mean it is "right" to do. There is indeed a difference.

Placing a crucifix in a jar of urine, photographing it and displaying it in public as "Art", may be legal, but it certainly wasn't right, at least as far as most of us were concerned way back when (Maplethorpe's "Piss Christ", circa 1987).

Burning a flag is also legal, but most of us agree it isn't right. In fact, we know it is just plain wrong.

It may be legal to carry an AR15 and protest outside a ballot counting station, but it doesn't make it right either.

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Old November 15, 2020, 06:39 AM   #57
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Sooner or later these armed militias are going to pick a fight with the wrong LE outfit. Tonight there's a special on CBS about armed militias--I only saw the trailer, but I saw the same McVeigh look in the guy's eyes. It's always the same thing "we're only peaceful folks and we're not looking to cause no trouble with nobody--but we're willing to fight to the death for what we believe in, which is safeguarding your freedom [which almost always boils down to their unrestricted use of firearms anytime anywhere and the self-appointed mission of preventing the spread of what they see as a ideological threat]."

The irony is these are the guys that bring the public's focus on further gun control measures, not to mention gun buying panics (maybe another goal, who knows).
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Old November 17, 2020, 08:30 PM   #58
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Placing a crucifix in a jar of urine, photographing it and displaying it in public as "Art", may be legal, but it certainly wasn't right, at least as far as most of us were concerned way back when (Maplethorpe's "Piss Christ", circa 1987).

Burning a flag is also legal, but most of us agree it isn't right. In fact, we know it is just plain wrong.
You forgot one , kneeling for the national anthem . We can go down a whole list of things that are legal and looked down upon .

Hmm lets IDK say openly carrying firearms is one lol

It's interesting to me that this thread has not touched on the real issue . Late 1700's people outside poling place open carrying , anyone care ? 1800's people outside polling place openly carrying , anyone care ? 1900's up to about the 40's people outside the polling place open carrying , anyone care ?

Then mid to late 1900's guns are bad and should not be seen in public . 2000's Now guns must be hidden and children should not be exposed to them . Starting to see a pattern ?

When society as a whole creates a fear of something , when that thing rears it's head people fear it . As others have stated in this thread when you are afraid you notice things more while at the same time having tunnel vision .

This is not about guns at the polling / counting places . This is about the anti's creating the fear of guns in society for decades now . They've been playing the long game while we play the short game . The only reason this thread has so many post and disagreements is because we as a society have excepted that guns should be feared . That anti gun created fear is the very reason people show up with guns to intimidate , they understand the fear they invoke . If we all had them and carried them , nobody would care if they were at a polling / counting place .

We have already lost this fight in the court of public opinion . The only way tyrannical gun control is stopped is by the courts because we lost the 2nd amendment argument a long time ago based on the fear they invoke in the general public .

There's my $.02 take it for what it's worth .

MG
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Old November 17, 2020, 09:40 PM   #59
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This is ALL ABOUT GUNS AT POLING/COUNTING PLACES! Any time in history that armed angry mobs are at poling places, Democracy is the loser. This was done in the old South to keep blacks from voting. It was done in the county I live in, in the 1890s when armed supporters of a candidate would not let people into town to vote. Not too much different than armed men screaming STOP THE VOTE/COUNT. If we as responsible gun owners dont protest against armed thugs harming our democracy, we will give the anti gunners more obvious reasons to make more laws.
Our country is too close to the hatred that started the civil war, and as I get reminded at times "The civil war started long before the first shots were fired".
Chairman Mao said "Power comes from the barrel of a gun". You can see how well that turned out for the Chinese people. Grant.
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Old November 17, 2020, 11:56 PM   #60
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Grant , you appear to have drank the anti koolaid . I stand by my point as I’m sure you stand by yours as well . Isn’t America great , we can have differing opinions and yet not try to harm each other . The intimidation you speak of only can occur if one is willing to be intimidated . I refuse to be , decisions are made by those who show up . They want to bring guns then so will I . That’s one of the many reason for the 2nd amendment. It’s the great equalizer that banning weapons does not allow for . American history is filled with righteous Americans refusing to be intimidated . This is just another chapter in our history . Will there be another shot heard around the world , I don’t know .
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Old November 18, 2020, 03:15 AM   #61
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If they were just armed on their way to/from work, or the hardware store, it would be no issue. The problem is that they are a semi-organized group carrying military-style arms with the intent to intimidate voters or vote-counters.

There is a long history of that kind of act suppressing democracy, and I strongly urge you to do your own research. As a hint, some of them wore brown shirts. But some also wore black shirts. Nowadays Hawaiian shirts are sometimes favored. I suppose that means we don't have to take them quite so seriously, but I still don't like them.

Last edited by roscoe; November 18, 2020 at 03:20 AM.
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Old November 18, 2020, 03:19 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by roscoe
The problem is that they are a semi-organized group gathering with military-style arms with the intent to intimidate voters or vote-counters.
How do you know their intent is to intimidate vote counters?
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Old November 18, 2020, 03:23 AM   #63
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Parsimony - the lack of reasonable alternative explanations. Why else at that time and place? Are they guarding that patch of concrete? From whom?

Plus, my knowledge of the history of that kind of behavior. It has a long tradition.

Last edited by roscoe; November 18, 2020 at 03:30 AM.
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Old November 18, 2020, 10:33 AM   #64
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They scream their intent at the top of their lungs. If you cant figure that out, it might be that your bubble is too thick. Anti gunners love this stuff because it gives them good reason to ban guns. Responsible gun owners should loudly condemn this sort of action because it will cause more gun control movements. It probably wont be long before there are a rash of laws proposed to ban firearms within (some random number) of feet from poling/counting places. Anything that cuts into the free and fair elections in our country, plays right into the long term Russian plan to de-stabilize our country. Lies and conspiracy theories seem to be working well enough to have 1/2 of our country against the other half. It is bad for gun ownership and even worse for our democracy. Grant.
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Old November 18, 2020, 11:34 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by roscoe
Parsimony - the lack of reasonable alternative explanations. Why else at that time and place? Are they guarding that patch of concrete? From whom?
They could think they're guarding the vote counters from outside influence.

They could think they are guarding against van loads of unacceptably late ballots arriving in the middle of the night.

They might think they are ensuring that the ballots aren't stolen (before or after counting).

Bottom line: you don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant 14
They scream their intent at the top of their lungs.
They do? Do you have a link to the video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant 14
It probably wont be long before there are a rash of laws proposed to ban firearms within (some random number) of feet from poling/counting places.
I'm pretty certain that my state already has such a law. It has had it for years.

I'm not trying to say that I think this is (or was) a good idea. All I'm saying is that proclaiming it as an attempt to intimidate the vote counters is unsupported speculation.
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Old November 18, 2020, 11:45 AM   #66
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Do “they” scream a chant or does the crowd scream a chant and some in the crowd are armed ? Also if I recall those crowds are “mostly” peaceful correct so there is clearly not a problem as long as it’s “mostly” peaceful. Heck even if they start some fires it’s ok as long as during the day they are “mostly” peaceful. Remember the report saying how the protest were mostly peaceful while in the background of his live feed multiple buildings were on fire . Oh I know all about those bubbles you speak of .

It’s interesting you mentioned my bubble . I recently switched over to duckduckgo as my internet search engine . I then went onto youtube and clicked on kibs videos , CNN and MSNBC videos . My new bubble was all about kids and Trump hate . Very interesting bubble it created and quite scary on how websites like youtube and Facebook have quite a bit of control on what you see . Couple that with the lame steam media with there heads in the sand all of a sudden and I can see the bubble many are likely in . You really need to go look for the truth nowadays it ain’t going to looking for you .

The other interesting thing using duckduckgo is that it shows who the blocked each time you go to a new page . Not just searches but every page . Like I come here to the main page and it shows Google and Amazon were blocked from knowing I’m here . I then click on the law and civil rights sub forom and again Google and amazon get blocked , every click other websites are being blocked from seeing what I’m doing . I had no idea that Google , Amazon and Facebook werecwatching what I clicking on even when I’m not directly on there site . I don’t even have a Facebook account . Firearms forums are the only social media I am a part of , no Facebook, twitter , insta what ever - nothing and never have been and yet some how they are all tracking me . This leads me to believe the other websites like this one allows google to track it’s members
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Old November 18, 2020, 12:48 PM   #67
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Guess I am a bit different, having carried all kinds of guns almost everywhere for decades I have no fear of other armed individuals. But you are free to feel any way you wish.
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Old November 18, 2020, 12:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by shurshot View Post
"The mysterious arrival of van loads of boxes of ballots"(AB)

Several mainstream media sources, including SNOPES have debunked that allegation. It's BS.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/de...wagon-ballots/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...ump-joe-biden/
Interesting you chose those sites to prove some kind of debunking. You do know all three of them are in the left's pocket for Biden and can be considered fake news right?
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Old November 18, 2020, 12:55 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Grant 14 View Post
This is ALL ABOUT GUNS AT POLING/COUNTING PLACES! Any time in history that armed angry mobs are at poling places, Democracy is the loser. This was done in the old South to keep blacks from voting. It was done in the county I live in, in the 1890s when armed supporters of a candidate would not let people into town to vote. Not too much different than armed men screaming STOP THE VOTE/COUNT. If we as responsible gun owners dont protest against armed thugs harming our democracy, we will give the anti gunners more obvious reasons to make more laws.
Our country is too close to the hatred that started the civil war, and as I get reminded at times "The civil war started long before the first shots were fired".
Chairman Mao said "Power comes from the barrel of a gun". You can see how well that turned out for the Chinese people. Grant.
Grant you seem a little off about what is happening, and why we have the second amendment. Yes I feel violence is coming and how do you expect us to counter it?
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Old November 18, 2020, 01:04 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Grant 14 View Post
The second amendment starts out with "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA" which almost every state has in the form of NATIONAL GUARD. To imply that an armed mob that wants to overturn an election or a mask mandate is a well regulated militia, is ABSURD. I believe that most states have laws against vigilantes. If we as a country allow any pissed off group with guns to intimidate other people, we will soon descend into tyranny. Democracy is a fragile, sometimes messy way to run a country but guns to gain political power will kill our democracy. Bringing a gun to an argument (political or religious) is not an expression of a right, it is a threat. When our leaders (or our forum members) condone such action, we are moving much closer to tyranny. Grant
Grant you also appear to know very little about the 2nd amendment. You should study the Federalist papers. All of the amendments to the constitution were put in there to satisfy states that they would be protected from a central government and that they could protect themselves from a central government.

https://thefederalistpapers.org/fede...ng-the-militia

IMPORTANT NOTE: Back in the 18th century, a “regular” army meant an army that had standard military equipment. So a “well regulated” army was simply one that was “well equipped” and organized. It does not refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term “standing army” or “regulars” to describe a professional army. Therefore, “a well regulated militia” only means a well equipped militia that was organized and maintained internal discipline. It does not imply the modern meaning of “regulated,” which means controlled or administered by some superior entity. Federal control over the militia comes from other parts of the Constitution, but not from the Second Amendment.
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Old November 18, 2020, 01:17 PM   #71
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The focus on gun ownership? The focus right now is the election fraud. We have every right to revolt if our elections are compromised.
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Old November 18, 2020, 01:57 PM   #72
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How do you know their intent is to intimidate vote counters?
Plausible deniability. Probably can't prove it in a court of law so it is essentially
not prosecutable. Never the less, it still an attempt to influence the out come of an election through selective intimidation, no matter what color of shirt they wear and even if they smile and talk nice.
How does anyone not know this?
If you can't see this, it might be that you and your vote is probably expected to be their preferred vote.
It's brandishing weapons. It's voter intimidation hiding behind and abusing the 2nd Amendment. behind the facade , it's a crime that can't be proven.
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Old November 18, 2020, 02:40 PM   #73
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Haha , is it a crime if you’re following the law ?
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Old November 18, 2020, 03:19 PM   #74
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Plausible deniability. Probably can't prove it in a court of law so it is essentially
not prosecutable. Never the less, it still an attempt to influence the out come of an election through selective intimidation, no matter what color of shirt they wear and even if they smile and talk nice.
How does anyone not know this?
If you can't see this, it might be that you and your vote is probably expected to be their preferred vote.
It's brandishing weapons. It's voter intimidation hiding behind and abusing the 2nd Amendment. behind the facade , it's a crime that can't be proven.
Is it my imagination or do we have a number of leftists here on the board? You do know if the election is not above board there will be far more than brandishing going on right? So in effect those guys are trying to make sure that does not happen.
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Old November 18, 2020, 03:37 PM   #75
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Is it my imagination or do we have a number of leftists here on the board? You do know if the election is not above board there will be far more than brandishing going on right? So in effect those guys are trying to make sure that does not happen.
And how, exactly, does standing outside the polling/counting locations with AR-15s assist in any way with ensuring legitimacy of the election? Is there some threat with which they need to deal in an armed fashion?

The answer is no. There is no real question as to the legitimacy of the election in the first place, but even if there were, loitering armed outside the polling place certainly is no way to address an issue with voting software or counting. We are a nation of laws, and have laws on voter fraud.

Leftists? Please, we are better than name-calling here at TFL.
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