SBR a dying concept?

TrueBlue711 · August 28, 2017, 01:46 PM

So with all of these pistol braces out there, I'm wondering what the point of an SBR is anymore. Especially since (current interpretation) you can shoulder said pistol braces. Unless you really want an adjustable stock, what is the advantage of paying $200 and waiting 6+ months for an SBR tax stamp?

dallasb · August 28, 2017, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueBlue711

So with all of these pistol braces out there, I'm wondering what the point of an SBR is anymore. Especially since (current interpretation) you can shoulder said pistol braces. Unless you really want an adjustable stock, what is the advantage of paying $200 and waiting 6+ months for an SBR tax stamp?

I have both a brace and a registered SBR. The rifle buttock makes a big difference in accuracy and comfort. I am planning to SBR my evo once funds are available.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk

GE-Minigun · August 28, 2017, 04:09 PM

The current interpretation is only for one brace...SB Tactical

TrueBlue711 · August 28, 2017, 04:20 PM

Quote:

The current interpretation is only for one brace...SB Tactical

True, but let's be realistic. No NFA agent will be hunting you down for shooting from the shoulder. Even the big YouTube gun channels are shooting from the shoulder now and they're not even getting a warning to stop.
I would think they only way you would get hit for it is if you have heavy felony record, which makes you worth their time, and openly record yourself (i.e. providing proof) that you shoot from the shoulder.

GE-Minigun · August 28, 2017, 04:29 PM

True that. However most gun people are the biggest bunch of nannies I have ever run across. Ask the question...your SBRing and AR and have a chance to get a 10.5" upper for $20, should you do it?

It will be 2 seconds before someone says don't do it constructive possession, blah, blah, blah.

9x19 · August 28, 2017, 05:39 PM

I have an Andersen lower with KAK brace. It does not come close to comfort or convenience of a collapsible Magpul stock.

I have 4 SBRs, and would do it again without thinking.

dogtown tom · August 28, 2017, 06:10 PM

Quote:

TrueBlue711

Quote:

Quote:
The current interpretation is only for one brace...SB Tactical

True, but let's be realistic. No NFA agent will be hunting you down for shooting from the shoulder. Even the big YouTube gun channels are shooting from the shoulder now and they're not even getting a warning to stop.

You are making the assumption that ATF is who you should be worried about. State laws also apply, and to my knowledge no state has addressed the legality of an arm brace that looks like a shoulder stock.

dogtown tom · August 28, 2017, 06:11 PM

Quote:

9x19 I have an Andersen lower with KAK brace. It does not come close to comfort or convenience of a collapsible Magpul stock.

I have 4 BARs, and would do it again without thinking.

How's the recoil?

agtman · August 29, 2017, 07:43 AM

Quote:

* * * Especially since (current interpretation) you can shoulder said pistol braces. Unless you really want an adjustable stock, what is the advantage of paying $200 and waiting 6+ months for an SBR tax stamp?

That's the problem right there.

It's only a BATFE "interpretation" (Agency-issued letter opinion) regarding one brace, which happens to be issued under a pro-2d Amendment President.

If the next Prez is some form of Obummer/Hillcrat, that "interpretation" could be revised and re-issued in the opposite direction by the next appointed Agency head.

Having to wait 6-8 months for a tax stamp is b.s., I agree, but it's that stamp and BATFE's sign-off on your approved Form 1 or F-4 that gives you a "guarantee" (under current federal law) that your little SBR toy is legal.

TrueBlue711 · August 29, 2017, 09:43 AM

Quote:

State laws also apply, and to my knowledge no state has addressed the legality of an arm brace that looks like a shoulder stock.

Also true. Very dependent on the state. Coming out of legal talk and into reality again, I don't think most cops would touch this. I lived in northern Cali for the past 4 years (finally got out of that state!) and talked to a lot of police officers about this subject and the answer is the same from all of them: they don't touch this. Not unless you're doing something stupid, unsafe or illegal (breaking laws, not shouldering a pistol brace), they won't even bother you. That being said, I didn't live in the communist cities of north Cal (San Fran, Sacramento, etc). Those cops may be different.

Quote:

If the next Prez is some form of Obummer/Hillcrat, that "interpretation" could be revised and re-issued in the opposite direction by the next appointed Agency head.

Yeah, no argument here. Their opinions change with the regime. I'll probably SBR my AR pistol, but I may wait until the 3rd year of Trump's term.

So final question. Even when ATF's pistol brace interpretation was NO shouldering allowed whatsoever, can anybody name a case where somebody got in trouble for it? During that whole time and all the fear talk of "don't do it", I never heard of a single case where somebody was prosecuted for it. At least not successfully. I know people were doing it regardless of what ATF said.

raimius · August 29, 2017, 12:43 PM

It depends. How much are you willing to spend for exactly what you want, and what the legal considerations are. Some people use the brace because interstate travel is considerably easier with a pistol and/or laws on loaded pistols are more convenient for them.

I had a braced pistol, but Form 1'd it so I could add a real stock. I'm about to build out some pistol lowers for travel though.
ARs make it easy. If you have an SBR, a pistol lower, and a 16+in upper, you can mix and match to suit the legal environment in most places. If you are talking about guns that aren't able to mix and match, a little more consideration would be required.

armoredman · August 31, 2017, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueBlue711

So final question. Even when ATF's pistol brace interpretation was NO shouldering allowed whatsoever, can anybody name a case where somebody got in trouble for it? During that whole time and all the fear talk of "don't do it", I never heard of a single case where somebody was prosecuted for it. At least not successfully. I know people were doing it regardless of what ATF said.

Only thing I ever heard, and I have no link to back it up, anecdotal only, was someone was arrested for it up in the Northwest, but nobody prosecuted. That's all I've ever heard.

TruthTellers · August 31, 2017, 08:43 PM

I've never had an interest in an SBR in anything other than a .22 LR or pistol cartridge chambered gun and probably never will. 16 inches is just a great all around barrel length and is the minimum I'd want to shoot any rifle cartridge from.

And not all states legalize SBR's.

I have similar feelings about SBS's as the KSG exists now.

I would still SBR if the gun fit a certain philosophical use. A Ruger Charger Takedown with a folding stock gives me wet dreams at night and a CAA Micro Roni with a 9 inch extended barrel makes me want to go to confessional.

444 · August 31, 2017, 10:05 PM

I tend to agree with the last post.
Years ago, the SBR and the SBS seemed like something I had to have (I never was interested in, or saw the purpose in a "pistol" aka a rifle with no stock). I registered a half dozen or so various guns: both rifles and shotguns.
But, after a year or so (and once I actually owned them and played with them) the novelty wore off for me. I almost never shoot them any more.
I think it was the forbidden fruit thing. I wanted something that not everybody else had I guess.
I guess another aspect of it is that my interest in firearms changes periodically. I have gone in many different directions over the years. Big bore handguns, "tactical stuff", full auto and various NFA things; but today, what pulls my chain is long range rifle shooting and trying to achieve ultimate accuracy. That doesn't really fit in with SBRs for me. The only NFA thing that still interests me these days are suppressors. I use them all the time.

cjsoccer3 · September 1, 2017, 01:17 PM

I think they are still relevant and will always be. The wait has always been there. The legal status of the braces are not stable for the $ they cost. I can slap a rifle length upper on my SBR and go to town at 600 yards any day and vice versa.

One you got the sig brace, youre in the corner of always having it in that setup. It's not the best at what it does and can't do other things. I got my SBR after the braces were out and would do it again.

Theohazard · September 1, 2017, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjsoccer3

I can slap a rifle length upper on my SBR and go to town at 600 yards any day and vice versa.

You can do the same thing with an AR pistol -- brace or no brace. And you can even put a stock on it once the barrel is 16" or longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjsoccer3

One you got the sig brace, youre in the corner of always having it in that setup.

Huh? Where did you get that from? You can take the brace off any time you want, and you can also turn the whole thing into a regular rifle any time you want.

**44 AMP** · September 1, 2017, 03:51 PM

Quote:

So with all of these pistol braces out there, I'm wondering what the point of an SBR is anymore.

The point is what it has been since 1934, to comply with Federal Law.

There are other guns than ARs you know, and the ATF has a long record of changing their minds about what is, and is not legal.

Nanuk · September 1, 2017, 04:01 PM

I have been running AR's since the late 70's when Uncle Sam taught me to run one. I carried one as a patrol rifle in LE for decades. Last year I put together an AR pistol in 5.56 to try the concept out.

Today I have a pistol upper in 300BLK and one in 5.56. It has replaced my carbine for 99% of what I use an AR for. I do not have any sort of brace on my lower, to me it detracts from the utility of the pistol.

I shoot it with a cheek weld, nose to charging handle, that may have to change as I plan on installing a LAW Tactical folder. With the 7.5" 300 BLK BBL and the Law folder it will fit in a laptop case.

To me, the benefits of the pistol far outweigh the SBR. Try taking your SBR on a cross country road trip legally. I can legally carry a loaded pistol in many places I cannot a carbine or SBR. I compete in IDPA side matches with it against pistol caliber carbines and other carbines and beat most of the easily.

9x19 · September 2, 2017, 09:19 AM

It really is the best $200 accessory I could buy, for my money.

Folks spend that much on the latest silly hand-guard fashion, or a better trigger without batting an eye, I prefer the stamp.

TruthTellers · September 2, 2017, 02:57 PM

After thinking about it for a bit, I will say that I can see the benefit of having an AR or other type of long gun that you can change uppers on to make the barrel longer or shorter.

I don't like the idea of something like an Uzi or AK or other less modular guns and making them an SBR. What if you do the SBR and you don't like the result? You spend $200 on the stamp and probably more than what you would have paid on a standard length rifle. It's very tough to sell, gun stores may not even bother with them because they'll probably have a tough time finding a customer to buy it and wait months to take possession of it after they get the OK from Uncle Sam.

So, AR's and takedown style rifles like the Ruger 10/22's or Chiappa lever actions are the best long guns to SBR if you want to.

But, when it comes to the AR, I'd just put the Sig brace on it. Yeah, they're not adjustable, but I get the feeling that Sig will come out with an updated brace that "lengthens or shortens the amount of brace on the user's forearm for added comfort."

At that point, I'd save the $200 and hours of paperwork and spend it on ammo or a decent optic.

Sharkbite · September 2, 2017, 03:46 PM

I have both pistol AR's with braces and SBR's. i build the gun as a pistol and use it with the brace while im wating on the stamp to come back.

Once i get the stamp, a real stock is a much better way to go.

ttarp · September 2, 2017, 05:16 PM

I've never used a brace, so I can't comment on whether real stocks are really that much better, but in the world of Hk's and clones, it doesn't make much sense as a long term solution to limit your stock options. jmo ymmv

Nanuk · September 2, 2017, 06:18 PM

Quote:

It really is the best $200 accessory I could buy, for my money.

Folks spend that much on the latest silly hand-guard fashion, or a better trigger without batting an eye, I prefer the stamp.

$200 accessory???? The can will run you over $1000 + $200 for the stamp.

https://silencerco.com/silencers/omega/

I can carry my AR pistol pretty much every where I go without asking anyone's permission.

ttarp · September 2, 2017, 08:56 PM

I'm not sure how you could spend $1K on a stock, but often folks already have one laying around so all is needed is the $200 stamp. Maybe I'm missing something.

Theohazard · September 2, 2017, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9x19

It really is the best $200 accessory I could buy, for my money.

Folks spend that much on the latest silly hand-guard fashion, or a better trigger without batting an eye, I prefer the stamp.

$200 accessory???? The can will run you over $1000 + $200 for the stamp.

He was referring to the cost to Form 1 an SBR. After all, that's what this thread is all about.

August 28, 2017, 01:46 PM	#1
TrueBlue711 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2011 Posts: 489	SBR a dying concept? So with all of these pistol braces out there, I'm wondering what the point of an SBR is anymore. Especially since (current interpretation) you can shoulder said pistol braces. Unless you really want an adjustable stock, what is the advantage of paying $200 and waiting 6+ months for an SBR tax stamp?

August 28, 2017, 05:39 PM	#6
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	I have an Andersen lower with KAK brace. It does not come close to comfort or convenience of a collapsible Magpul stock. I have 4 SBRs, and would do it again without thinking. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19! Last edited by 9x19; August 28, 2017 at 11:55 PM.

August 31, 2017, 08:43 PM	#13
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	I've never had an interest in an SBR in anything other than a .22 LR or pistol cartridge chambered gun and probably never will. 16 inches is just a great all around barrel length and is the minimum I'd want to shoot any rifle cartridge from. And not all states legalize SBR's. I have similar feelings about SBS's as the KSG exists now. I would still SBR if the gun fit a certain philosophical use. A Ruger Charger Takedown with a folding stock gives me wet dreams at night and a CAA Micro Roni with a 9 inch extended barrel makes me want to go to confessional. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

August 31, 2017, 10:05 PM	#14
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I tend to agree with the last post. Years ago, the SBR and the SBS seemed like something I had to have (I never was interested in, or saw the purpose in a "pistol" aka a rifle with no stock). I registered a half dozen or so various guns: both rifles and shotguns. But, after a year or so (and once I actually owned them and played with them) the novelty wore off for me. I almost never shoot them any more. I think it was the forbidden fruit thing. I wanted something that not everybody else had I guess. I guess another aspect of it is that my interest in firearms changes periodically. I have gone in many different directions over the years. Big bore handguns, "tactical stuff", full auto and various NFA things; but today, what pulls my chain is long range rifle shooting and trying to achieve ultimate accuracy. That doesn't really fit in with SBRs for me. The only NFA thing that still interests me these days are suppressors. I use them all the time. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

September 1, 2017, 04:01 PM	#18
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I have been running AR's since the late 70's when Uncle Sam taught me to run one. I carried one as a patrol rifle in LE for decades. Last year I put together an AR pistol in 5.56 to try the concept out. Today I have a pistol upper in 300BLK and one in 5.56. It has replaced my carbine for 99% of what I use an AR for. I do not have any sort of brace on my lower, to me it detracts from the utility of the pistol. I shoot it with a cheek weld, nose to charging handle, that may have to change as I plan on installing a LAW Tactical folder. With the 7.5" 300 BLK BBL and the Law folder it will fit in a laptop case. To me, the benefits of the pistol far outweigh the SBR. Try taking your SBR on a cross country road trip legally. I can legally carry a loaded pistol in many places I cannot a carbine or SBR. I compete in IDPA side matches with it against pistol caliber carbines and other carbines and beat most of the easily. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

August 28, 2017, 04:09 PM	#3
GE-Minigun Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Posts: 240	The current interpretation is only for one brace...SB Tactical

August 28, 2017, 04:29 PM	#5
GE-Minigun Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Posts: 240	True that. However most gun people are the biggest bunch of nannies I have ever run across. Ask the question...your SBRing and AR and have a chance to get a 10.5" upper for $20, should you do it? It will be 2 seconds before someone says don't do it constructive possession, blah, blah, blah.

August 29, 2017, 12:43 PM	#11
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	It depends. How much are you willing to spend for exactly what you want, and what the legal considerations are. Some people use the brace because interstate travel is considerably easier with a pistol and/or laws on loaded pistols are more convenient for them. I had a braced pistol, but Form 1'd it so I could add a real stock. I'm about to build out some pistol lowers for travel though. ARs make it easy. If you have an SBR, a pistol lower, and a 16+in upper, you can mix and match to suit the legal environment in most places. If you are talking about guns that aren't able to mix and match, a little more consideration would be required.

September 1, 2017, 01:17 PM	#15
cjsoccer3 Member Join Date: August 4, 2015 Posts: 30	I think they are still relevant and will always be. The wait has always been there. The legal status of the braces are not stable for the $ they cost. I can slap a rifle length upper on my SBR and go to town at 600 yards any day and vice versa. One you got the sig brace, youre in the corner of always having it in that setup. It's not the best at what it does and can't do other things. I got my SBR after the braces were out and would do it again.

September 2, 2017, 09:19 AM	#19
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	It really is the best $200 accessory I could buy, for my money. Folks spend that much on the latest silly hand-guard fashion, or a better trigger without batting an eye, I prefer the stamp. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

September 2, 2017, 02:57 PM	#20
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,883	After thinking about it for a bit, I will say that I can see the benefit of having an AR or other type of long gun that you can change uppers on to make the barrel longer or shorter. I don't like the idea of something like an Uzi or AK or other less modular guns and making them an SBR. What if you do the SBR and you don't like the result? You spend $200 on the stamp and probably more than what you would have paid on a standard length rifle. It's very tough to sell, gun stores may not even bother with them because they'll probably have a tough time finding a customer to buy it and wait months to take possession of it after they get the OK from Uncle Sam. So, AR's and takedown style rifles like the Ruger 10/22's or Chiappa lever actions are the best long guns to SBR if you want to. But, when it comes to the AR, I'd just put the Sig brace on it. Yeah, they're not adjustable, but I get the feeling that Sig will come out with an updated brace that "lengthens or shortens the amount of brace on the user's forearm for added comfort." At that point, I'd save the $200 and hours of paperwork and spend it on ammo or a decent optic. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

September 2, 2017, 03:46 PM	#21
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I have both pistol AR's with braces and SBR's. i build the gun as a pistol and use it with the brace while im wating on the stamp to come back. Once i get the stamp, a real stock is a much better way to go.

September 2, 2017, 05:16 PM	#22
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	I've never used a brace, so I can't comment on whether real stocks are really that much better, but in the world of Hk's and clones, it doesn't make much sense as a long term solution to limit your stock options. jmo ymmv

September 2, 2017, 08:56 PM	#24
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	I'm not sure how you could spend $1K on a stock, but often folks already have one laying around so all is needed is the $200 stamp. Maybe I'm missing something.

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