The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 2, 2023, 10:28 PM   #26
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
Response was that Half Cock should allow cylinder to spin. It does not. I did not know it should, I did know cylinder would spin but not that it was supposed to spin at half cock (it makes sense but its been 45 years since I had a SA gun).

I can see it looking at the gun from the side that the bolt drops down initially as the hammer starts to move (and cylinder starts to turn) but the bolt pops back up by the time the hammer is at half cock.

I am starting to get the relationship between the bolt (fingers?) and the slanted pin in the hammer.

From the pictures of a bolt I can see it was misfiled at the factory or it was filed down prior to my wife owning it. I have to check with her again on who she bought it from.

Having been a mechanic for 35 years (machinery not cars but a lot of engine work aka Generators and fire pumps) I know not to not have the replacement part on hand before I try anything (assuming I want to shoot it before parts arrive if I mess up)

Amazing how something that simple can be and the complex thought that had to go into it to get it to work. You can see why it took so long to get where they did.

If I am right on it being filed down on the wrong side of the finger then I will need a new bolt as while I can get it square, it will not have the bearing surface area it had before.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 2, 2023, 11:36 PM   #27
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,164
A new bolt will likely require filing to work correctly. Can you post a pic of the hammer cam and bolt with the hammer and bolt out of the gun?
Hawg is offline  
Old October 3, 2023, 12:00 AM   #28
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,339
Well, they're about as far away from you as they can possibly be and still be in the same country, but you might try giving VTI Replica Gun Parts a call and see if they have any suggestions. They are not (as far as I know) pistolsmiths, but they do sell parts for most if not all of the Italian replica sixshooters (except Armi San Paolo -- but they may know whose parts are most likely to fit).

https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/

Also, it appears that Armi San Paolo made good guns -- at least according to people here in TFL back in 2009:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=338117
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old October 3, 2023, 06:02 PM   #29
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
We are used to the distances. Closest is Seattle and many years of parts coming from all across the US. Shipping is no worse from Florida or Washington State.

If this works a picture of the bolt
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NMA Bolt.JPG (104.5 KB, 13 views)
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 3, 2023, 09:27 PM   #30
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
If this works a picture of the bolt
That's much too small to see anything.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old October 3, 2023, 10:03 PM   #31
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,164
It looks like somebody has been working on it. What does the hammer cam look like. This will give you an idea how it's supposed to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFLgCLn2iQ8
Hawg is offline  
Old October 4, 2023, 04:24 PM   #32
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
The 3D helps, more or less what I thought but better idea on the bolt which is almost impossible to see working.

My wife bought it from a gunsmith and nothing was done to the gun after she bought it. But work was done on the bolt and its the wrong side to boot.

The screws on the gun were in so tight it does not seem like it was taken apart but they could have been put back in too tight if someone did not know what they were doing.

None of the screws has marks on them. So all a guess but clearly the filing was deliberate either at factory or after.

I think these are better pictures
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0669.JPG (106.7 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0671.JPG (109.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0672.JPG (121.8 KB, 12 views)
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

Last edited by RC20; October 4, 2023 at 06:38 PM.
RC20 is offline  
Old October 4, 2023, 09:45 PM   #33
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,164
I would say after. ASP/Euroarms made good guns. I don't see them letting something like that out the door. A proper fitting hollow ground screwdriver won't leave any marks. That bolt looks more like a Pietta than a Uberti. If you can't find an ASP/Euroarms you might make a Pietta work.
Hawg is offline  
Old October 5, 2023, 06:49 AM   #34
44 Dave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2013
Posts: 576
If you are going to order a bolt, get both Uberti and Pietta .Uberti often is better metal. No guarantee on after market quality.
44 Dave is offline  
Old October 5, 2023, 02:00 PM   #35
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
I ordered the full parts kit from EMT. That gives me spares of everything even if I have to file them to fit, I have the originals for patterns.

Anything can not be as bad as that bolt with the slash cut on the wrong side. I do wonder if a worker did the wrong side, I can see it overtravled just a tad to the other side at the angle it was cut .

Worst case I get another bolt from VT. I may get a 2nd cylinder due to the range rules.

With the various U Tubes I understand how it works and why that cut angle is exactly the wrong thing (other side yes, that side no).

Back in the day it would have been a lot of hand fitting and any repair would have needed that.

Definitely interesting
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 5, 2023, 11:09 PM   #36
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 Dave View Post
If you are going to order a bolt, get both Uberti and Pietta .Uberti often is better metal. No guarantee on after market quality.
Uberti may work but I doubt it, it's a different shape.
Hawg is offline  
Old October 6, 2023, 01:29 PM   #37
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,975
RC20, that's quite the variation in cylinder bore sizes, were it new I would be shipping it back. Were it mine? I would machine the smaller bores to the .446 diameter to have a consistent squeeze on the ball. Since you are not shaving lead the bores have apparently been chamfered. Your caliper jaws are not likely long enough to check the bore size at the bottom of the bore.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is online now  
Old October 6, 2023, 06:34 PM   #38
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
Ricklin:

No the caliper jaws are not long enough. I do have consistent lead plating going down and while the ring of lead is a better indicator, I am also going with the research as to having to go to a smaller size to get a chainfire.

I am not going to get real serious about shooting BP, makes for a change from my target shooting and interesting though.

Chambers are not chamferred but they might be tapered. The lead plating starts a bit below the top.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 8, 2023, 06:57 PM   #39
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
Well it keeps being interesting.

I found the front sight missing and fortunately it let go on my work towel.

Its a Dovetail type on this gun/era. I super glued it back on though will have to get the silver solder out if that does not hold.

Parts should be here Monday and I can see how the bolt fits (or does not) and take that part from there.

Its too bad guns can't talk, I would be interested on that file cut on the arm of the factory bolt. Clearly it was done on the wrong side.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 8, 2023, 09:01 PM   #40
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,164
Unless I'm looking at the pics wrong the file work is on the right side. If any filing is to be done it's on the leg that rides on the hammer cam.
Hawg is offline  
Old October 9, 2023, 04:55 PM   #41
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
Yes it is and it took me a lot of time to get how that system works, not intuitive (or so I think) kind of a non elegant brilliant solution to the bolt timing.

So a head scratched as to how the Bolt leg got that way, clearly a screw up as it does exactly what you would expect (if you understand how it works) and release the bolt too soon.

When the parts get here I will see how the bolt fits and then make a decision as to filing the existing one square (timing will still be off a bit I suspect) or put the new one in (testing it) and see how it goes.

Regardless at some point the original one will get filed down just to see if it can be made to work. I don't know if I can make it work worse but I can do a partial cock and get the cylinder to spin right now even if not half cock like it should be.

In a way it reminds me of putting brake disk pads on cars in the past, some were clearly the right general type but the fit was not quite right. I would let the owner know (for a friend always), these do not cost much but I can return and have the same issue unless its an OEM and that means next week.

The decision always was to go ahead and file down, worst case the old ones went back on and the new ones a throw away (can't return if filed on). As long as the basic layout is right it worked fine but the owner needed to make that decision.

I am the owner here so I can futz with this the way I need to.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 12, 2023, 08:58 PM   #42
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
Parts kit came in, definitely needed work to make fit, I was expecting that. I took it shooting again this Wds and worked around it. Front sight stayed in place. Picture of the holes in the target at 15 yards (I have a hard time with iron sights)

I did a lot of grinding and profiling on the replacement bolt, got it fitted in fits and starts.

Works nicely now.

The cylinder latch portion required a lot of modification (grinding) and the bottom of the bolt needed grinding down to let come far enough up to not hit the spring.

The key part aka the arm that interfaces the hammer did not need any modification.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Group 10-11-23.jpg (120.7 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0680.JPG (137.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0679.JPG (138.1 KB, 2 views)
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Old October 16, 2023, 08:04 PM   #43
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
Well the interesting aspects continue.

I just came across (purely by accident) the cap container my wife got when she bough the ASP. Amazing. The shape caught my eye as I was stowing some bins of fasteners.

And a good count of how many rounds went through it, 30 (as that is what is left).

I popped one off and as energetic as the Remington's I have. Will have to give these a go next shooting session.
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not
RC20 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07431 seconds with 9 queries