Shooting out at sea?

Nickel Plated · November 11, 2013, 06:59 PM

Just got to thinking. Many places in this country really don't have access to quiet private land where you can just relax and shoot without worrying about ridiculous range rules and other nonsense. However, most of those places just so happen to be near the coasts. What would be the legality of just buying a cheap, big-ish, stable boat. Going out to international waters (12nm I believe) or just anywhere far from the coast, tossing some targets in the water (on a line of course for easy retrieval so you don't get arrested for dumping waste) and going at it?

Some basic rules to follow I guess.
-Don't shoot towards the coast
-And bring a good set of binoculars to check for other ships in your field of fire once in a while.

Sure, water is a huge ricochet hazard. But the idea of the open sea is it really doesn't matter where the shots go, there's noone there. Stay off any shipping and fishing lanes and you're good to go. Either way you'll see any ships coming long before you can hit them. I can't think of any round besides maybe a 50BMG that will go beyond a binocular's range of sight off just a ricochet.

Pahoo · November 11, 2013, 07:25 PM

Let me see if I understand this? The targets are bobbing, your boat is bobbing and you expect to see how well you can shoot; Right?? .....

For now, forget about any laws except the law of common sense. Now, this is exactly what we use to do, out at sea while in the Navy and yes, I'm talking about our US Navy. Won't get into details but all we were doing is seeing if we knew how to handle the weapon and to heck with marksmanship. Don't get me wrong, it was fun but I would have preferred a more stable environment. ...

Be Safe !!!

Nickel Plated · November 11, 2013, 07:34 PM

What better way to test your marksmanship?

Perhaps build some sort of stabilized platform on the boat that will compensate for the bobbing that you can shoot off of. So only the target moves. I like moving targets.
Just my delusional thoughts stemming from the frustration of not being able to find a decent place to shoot around here.

Pahoo · November 11, 2013, 07:42 PM

Find an island. You get by with a whole bunch of crap on these and who is going to come out and check on you? ......

Be Safe !!!

spacecoast · November 11, 2013, 07:45 PM

If you can't find an island, an aircraft carrier would probably work pretty well. Try to find one at least 300 yards long.

rwilson452 · November 12, 2013, 12:13 AM

Just some figures. Todays aircraft carriers flight deck are a tad over 1000 ft or 333 yards. Getting one for target practice would be a bit pricey. When your 30 ft above the water the horizon is 12.5 miles. the closer to the water the shorter the distance. then add the height of the other vessel In a small boat it's not as far as you might think. I suspect small boat to small boat would be safe except for something like a 50BMG. There are days I have seen in the pacific where the ocean is as smooth as glass, but not many.

Chaz88 · November 12, 2013, 12:40 AM

When I was in the Navy working on H-46 helicopters we had .50's that mounted in the 46. Our air crewman had to stay qualified with it. With the moving gun mount, moving helicopter, and moving target we only had one person that could stay on target. With the rest of them you might have been safer to be the target than anyplace else nearby.

Now if you are going to get an aircraft carrier I suggest you just use the sea-wiz it has computer controlled tracking and is an amazing sight to see it shoot. Better buy one before they are all upgraded to the RAM system, it is fun but not as cool as the sea-wiz. Bring your checkbook though it cost about a million dollars a day to own one when it is in port and doing nothing. Take it to sea with your air wing and the price per day goes way up.

Theohazard · November 12, 2013, 01:40 AM

I was a Marine infantry machine gunner and I had two MEU(SOC) deployments on a Navy LPD. We used to shoot off the back of the ship all the time. It's a lot of fun shooting a 30 caliber machine gun off the back of the ship and watching the tracers skip off the water. It's amazing how high they skip into the air after they hit the water; it's a lot higher angle than you'd expect.

**Tom Servo** · November 12, 2013, 02:09 AM

As far as international waters go, I'm not aware of any restrictions.

It's been suggested that discharging lead into the sea might run afoul of MARPOL 73/78, but I've not heard of any action.

Let's also bear in mind that nobody knows who you are, and shots fired at certain intervals might be mistaken for distress signals.

armsmaster270 · November 12, 2013, 03:19 AM

In the 60's the Coast Guard practiced with their Air Cooled Browning 30 cal. Machine Guns from the deck of their 40' patrol boats on Lake Ponchartrain Louisiana. Target a 55Gallon Drum.

g.willikers · November 12, 2013, 09:56 AM

Doesn't this sound like a very expensive, complicated and time consuming way to get some trigger time?
There's lots of easier ways.
How about just going to a shootin' match.
They're just about everywhere, for what ever kind of gun you want to use.

Armed_Chicagoan · November 12, 2013, 12:21 PM

I've had a hard enough time just trying to take pictures of friends on another boat while bobbing about on 2'-4' waves on Lake Michigan... can't imagine trying to shoot a floating target in such circumstances!

speedrrracer · November 12, 2013, 01:07 PM

My wife and I do this regularly. We have a boat which we sail quite a bit (leaving San Diego for Melanesia a month from now!), so we consulted a lawyer a while back. Maybe he was wrong, maybe I'm not remembering it all correctly, or maybe he got it all right, but I'm trying to regurgitate the gist of what was conveyed to me.

First, 12 nm is the economic exclusion zone, not international waters -- that's 300 nm. You don't want to be that far out on a "cheap" boat.

In 30 years of sailing, we've been....gently...hassled by the Coast Guard within the economic exclusion zone just a single time, and have never even seen a CG vessel once out to international waters.

It's not a substitute for a trip to the range. You can't just zip out 300 nm, and for the money you spend getting out there and back, you could have bought a lotta range time / ammo / new barrel, etc. The shooting is challenging as heck, and is a very different skill set that most would believe.

Our lawyer told us that in international waters, it's a different jurisdiction. "Admiralty law" applies, which is apparently based on a hodgepodge of old-school British, Roman, Islamic & who-knows-what stuff. Bottom line: stay the heck out of the shipping lanes, and away from merchant vessels. Also, you can still get busted, because a given country can "claim" jurisdiction over you (based on the flag you're flying, based on a zillion different things). If no other country chooses to dispute that claim, and you can't present evidence refuting that country's claim, then the admiralty court will likely grant jurisdiction to whichever nation made the claim.

Also, you can run afoul of (believe it or not) the "Law of the Sea", which is a separate body of law governing navigational rights, territorial claims, and mostly stuff at a high level between nations.

He made it clear that in international waters, you're only likely to have a legal issue if you harm someone. IOW, he says you can do anything you want, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else's interests. Of course that's broad & vague, but this is law, right? So the CG could go out and arrest you, claiming that you were endangering some American merchant shipping in international waters. Are they going to? Probably not, unless you're Al Capone and they're trying to cobble together some reason to bust you, but they probably will board you if they cruise right up to you and you're popping off guns.

So, you'll want to make sure you check the radar regularly, and if a ship-sized blip appears, it's time to call cease-fire.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 12, 2013, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedrrracer

First, 12 nm is the economic exclusion zone, not international waters -- that's 300 nm.

Something about this doesn't seem right.

Many years ago, I took a trip to Nova Scotia with my then-GF. At the time we both lived in New England and we took the ferry from Bar Harbor, Maine, to Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. That route just crosses the Gulf of Maine, about where it becomes the Bay of Fundy. Trip took about six hours, IIRC -- this was many years before the new, high-speed ferry. We certainly never got anything near 300 nautical miles off shore, but we weren't very long out of Bar Harbor before it was announced on the PA system that the slot machines were open and available.

I think that means we were in international waters, and U.S. (and Maine) laws pertaining to gambling no longer applied.

I actually think you may have it reversed. I think international waters starts at 12 nm off-shore, but the economic exclusion zone extends farther.

speedrrracer · November 12, 2013, 04:28 PM

I may well have gotten the names switched. Looking on the almighty Google, it seems I did. Apologies to all; this is what I meant:

wayneinFL · November 13, 2013, 03:43 PM

If you happen to be on a boat, and shoot safely without threatening anyone, it's perfectly legal.

If you're thinking of getting a boat just for the purpose of shooting, it's cheaper to just buy a range membership somewhere. A boat is just a big hole in the water to throw money into.

Chaz88 · November 13, 2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

A boat is just a big hole in the water to throw money into.

Yep. Boat stands for Break Out Another Thousand.

TimSr · November 14, 2013, 09:45 AM

I've seen movies on TV where they were skeet shooting off of cruise ships, so it must be true!

Doyle · November 14, 2013, 10:10 AM

Quote:

I think that means we were in international waters, and U.S. (and Maine) laws pertaining to gambling no longer applied.

It was the state of Maine's jurisdiction you left. There is no US law against gambling but there are state laws.

Armed_Chicagoan · November 14, 2013, 10:10 PM

I found this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW13ulsdkbA

johnwilliamson062 · November 19, 2013, 09:08 PM

12 nm as that was about artillery range when they realized missiles were going to make that measure pointless.
If you were in an antigun country I could see doing it. I know some who do in antigun countries. At one point I discussed the possibility with some people when in such a country. We decided the local law wouldn't really care where we were they were going to an extort a bribe anyways.

dajowi · November 27, 2013, 12:08 AM

When I lived in the Aleutians we used to take 55 gallon drums and roll them off cliffs into the Bering Sea and then shoot them with our .22s. Makes for a fun afternoon.

November 11, 2013, 06:59 PM	#1
Nickel Plated Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2010 Location: Brooklyn, NYC Posts: 610	Shooting out at sea? Just got to thinking. Many places in this country really don't have access to quiet private land where you can just relax and shoot without worrying about ridiculous range rules and other nonsense. However, most of those places just so happen to be near the coasts. What would be the legality of just buying a cheap, big-ish, stable boat. Going out to international waters (12nm I believe) or just anywhere far from the coast, tossing some targets in the water (on a line of course for easy retrieval so you don't get arrested for dumping waste) and going at it? Some basic rules to follow I guess. -Don't shoot towards the coast -And bring a good set of binoculars to check for other ships in your field of fire once in a while. Sure, water is a huge ricochet hazard. But the idea of the open sea is it really doesn't matter where the shots go, there's noone there. Stay off any shipping and fishing lanes and you're good to go. Either way you'll see any ships coming long before you can hit them. I can't think of any round besides maybe a 50BMG that will go beyond a binocular's range of sight off just a ricochet.

November 11, 2013, 07:25 PM	#2
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Glad I don't have to do it again !!! Let me see if I understand this? The targets are bobbing, your boat is bobbing and you expect to see how well you can shoot; Right?? ..... For now, forget about any laws except the law of common sense. Now, this is exactly what we use to do, out at sea while in the Navy and yes, I'm talking about our US Navy. Won't get into details but all we were doing is seeing if we knew how to handle the weapon and to heck with marksmanship. Don't get me wrong, it was fun but I would have preferred a more stable environment. ... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

November 11, 2013, 07:42 PM	#4
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Find an island Find an island. You get by with a whole bunch of crap on these and who is going to come out and check on you? ...... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

November 12, 2013, 12:13 AM	#6
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Just some figures. Todays aircraft carriers flight deck are a tad over 1000 ft or 333 yards. Getting one for target practice would be a bit pricey. When your 30 ft above the water the horizon is 12.5 miles. the closer to the water the shorter the distance. then add the height of the other vessel In a small boat it's not as far as you might think. I suspect small boat to small boat would be safe except for something like a 50BMG. There are days I have seen in the pacific where the ocean is as smooth as glass, but not many. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

November 12, 2013, 12:40 AM	#7
Chaz88 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2010 Posts: 1,243	When I was in the Navy working on H-46 helicopters we had .50's that mounted in the 46. Our air crewman had to stay qualified with it. With the moving gun mount, moving helicopter, and moving target we only had one person that could stay on target. With the rest of them you might have been safer to be the target than anyplace else nearby. Now if you are going to get an aircraft carrier I suggest you just use the sea-wiz it has computer controlled tracking and is an amazing sight to see it shoot. Better buy one before they are all upgraded to the RAM system, it is fun but not as cool as the sea-wiz. Bring your checkbook though it cost about a million dollars a day to own one when it is in port and doing nothing. Take it to sea with your air wing and the price per day goes way up. __________________ Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time. No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.

November 11, 2013, 07:34 PM	#3
Nickel Plated Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2010 Location: Brooklyn, NYC Posts: 610	What better way to test your marksmanship? Perhaps build some sort of stabilized platform on the boat that will compensate for the bobbing that you can shoot off of. So only the target moves. I like moving targets. Just my delusional thoughts stemming from the frustration of not being able to find a decent place to shoot around here.

November 11, 2013, 07:45 PM	#5
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	If you can't find an island, an aircraft carrier would probably work pretty well. Try to find one at least 300 yards long.

November 12, 2013, 01:40 AM	#8
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	I was a Marine infantry machine gunner and I had two MEU(SOC) deployments on a Navy LPD. We used to shoot off the back of the ship all the time. It's a lot of fun shooting a 30 caliber machine gun off the back of the ship and watching the tracers skip off the water. It's amazing how high they skip into the air after they hit the water; it's a lot higher angle than you'd expect. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

November 12, 2013, 02:09 AM	#9
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	As far as international waters go, I'm not aware of any restrictions. It's been suggested that discharging lead into the sea might run afoul of MARPOL 73/78, but I've not heard of any action. Let's also bear in mind that nobody knows who you are, and shots fired at certain intervals might be mistaken for distress signals. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

November 12, 2013, 03:19 AM	#10
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	In the 60's the Coast Guard practiced with their Air Cooled Browning 30 cal. Machine Guns from the deck of their 40' patrol boats on Lake Ponchartrain Louisiana. Target a 55Gallon Drum. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

November 12, 2013, 09:56 AM	#11
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Doesn't this sound like a very expensive, complicated and time consuming way to get some trigger time? There's lots of easier ways. How about just going to a shootin' match. They're just about everywhere, for what ever kind of gun you want to use. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 12, 2013, 12:21 PM	#12
Armed_Chicagoan Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2013 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 776	I've had a hard enough time just trying to take pictures of friends on another boat while bobbing about on 2'-4' waves on Lake Michigan... can't imagine trying to shoot a floating target in such circumstances!

November 12, 2013, 01:07 PM	#13
speedrrracer Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 317	My wife and I do this regularly. We have a boat which we sail quite a bit (leaving San Diego for Melanesia a month from now!), so we consulted a lawyer a while back. Maybe he was wrong, maybe I'm not remembering it all correctly, or maybe he got it all right, but I'm trying to regurgitate the gist of what was conveyed to me. First, 12 nm is the economic exclusion zone, not international waters -- that's 300 nm. You don't want to be that far out on a "cheap" boat. In 30 years of sailing, we've been....gently...hassled by the Coast Guard within the economic exclusion zone just a single time, and have never even seen a CG vessel once out to international waters. It's not a substitute for a trip to the range. You can't just zip out 300 nm, and for the money you spend getting out there and back, you could have bought a lotta range time / ammo / new barrel, etc. The shooting is challenging as heck, and is a very different skill set that most would believe. Our lawyer told us that in international waters, it's a different jurisdiction. "Admiralty law" applies, which is apparently based on a hodgepodge of old-school British, Roman, Islamic & who-knows-what stuff. Bottom line: stay the heck out of the shipping lanes, and away from merchant vessels. Also, you can still get busted, because a given country can "claim" jurisdiction over you (based on the flag you're flying, based on a zillion different things). If no other country chooses to dispute that claim, and you can't present evidence refuting that country's claim, then the admiralty court will likely grant jurisdiction to whichever nation made the claim. Also, you can run afoul of (believe it or not) the "Law of the Sea", which is a separate body of law governing navigational rights, territorial claims, and mostly stuff at a high level between nations. He made it clear that in international waters, you're only likely to have a legal issue if you harm someone. IOW, he says you can do anything you want, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else's interests. Of course that's broad & vague, but this is law, right? So the CG could go out and arrest you, claiming that you were endangering some American merchant shipping in international waters. Are they going to? Probably not, unless you're Al Capone and they're trying to cobble together some reason to bust you, but they probably will board you if they cruise right up to you and you're popping off guns. So, you'll want to make sure you check the radar regularly, and if a ship-sized blip appears, it's time to call cease-fire.

November 12, 2013, 04:28 PM	#15
speedrrracer Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 317	I may well have gotten the names switched. Looking on the almighty Google, it seems I did. Apologies to all; this is what I meant:

November 13, 2013, 03:43 PM	#16
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	If you happen to be on a boat, and shoot safely without threatening anyone, it's perfectly legal. If you're thinking of getting a boat just for the purpose of shooting, it's cheaper to just buy a range membership somewhere. A boat is just a big hole in the water to throw money into.

November 14, 2013, 09:45 AM	#18
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I've seen movies on TV where they were skeet shooting off of cruise ships, so it must be true!

November 14, 2013, 10:10 PM	#20
Armed_Chicagoan Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2013 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 776	I found this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW13ulsdkbA

November 19, 2013, 09:08 PM	#21
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	12 nm as that was about artillery range when they realized missiles were going to make that measure pointless. If you were in an antigun country I could see doing it. I know some who do in antigun countries. At one point I discussed the possibility with some people when in such a country. We decided the local law wouldn't really care where we were they were going to an extort a bribe anyways.

November 27, 2013, 12:08 AM	#22
dajowi Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,196	When I lived in the Aleutians we used to take 55 gallon drums and roll them off cliffs into the Bering Sea and then shoot them with our .22s. Makes for a fun afternoon.