suggestions for shooting offhand? - Page 2

IdaD · April 4, 2019, 12:51 PM

I'll answer from my primary experience which is hunting. If you have a variable scope, keep the magnification dialed down as low as possible. In my experience you aren't going to be, or at least shouldn't be, taking long shots offhand. More likely it'll be a closer shot and you can find your target easier with less magnification. It also won't magnify your movement which always messes me up.

I don't use any specific technique to manage the movement of my rifle, I just try to keep it slow and break the trigger when the crosshairs are in the target area. Managing the break on a light single stage rifle trigger hasn't ever been difficult because you don't have to pull far or hard to get to the break.

I'll also echo others and say if you can avoid it, don't shoot offhand. Even just leaning against a tree or getting down on one knee helps tremendously.

Erno86 · April 4, 2019, 02:54 PM

With a crowd or just one or two people watching you shoot...you have to put it in you're mind, that these people want to see you score a good shot on the target and not miss. That crowd is cheering you on so don't worry about it.

NoSecondBest · April 4, 2019, 03:12 PM

Quote:

you have to put it in you're mind, that these people want to see you score a good shot on the target and not miss

Exactly WHY so many guys miss. The pressue's on. Twice I've won big Make-A-Break shoots as a B class shooter. The A, AA, and Master class guys all choked up and lost. The pressure was even worse for them....beat by a B class shooter! I've long since past on from B class, but I'll never forget the pressure on those guy and what it did to their shooting. I've shot big competitions for years, and adrenaline costs more wins than lack of skills does. It's something very few shooters can consciously control. It gets you or it doesn't. In archery they call it target panic, hunting it's buck fever, and in shooting it's called folding like a wet towel. It's usually the guy who handles pressure who wins in the end, not the guy who can't. Shooting with your buddies is a lot different than shooting with strangers or in front of a crowd. This applies to shooting, golf, bowling, or any other sport. There are lots of books out there on the subject.

surg_res · April 4, 2019, 08:17 PM

Enjoyed this thread! Grew up shooting 'off hand' and never knew it was a formal position until reading about it on the web years later... To me, a rifle is an instrument with a purpose. If one struggles to simply shoot from a standing position but needs to, he has either the wrong rifle for the purpose or the wrong purpose for the rifle.

Nothing beats a walk in the field with a rifle and a need or desire to use it.

Something very OCD about the pleasure of shooting and wondering what others think.

Hunting with a shotgun probably best practice I can think of--not much bench work there.

pblanc · April 5, 2019, 03:46 PM

I have shot at several Appleseed events and I am struggling with exactly the same issue you are. I shot 22 lr rifle way back in Junior High School (think 1960s) and just started taking up rifle shooting again a couple of years ago. At Appleseed I have been able to fairly easily qualify as Rifleman each time, with scores generally in the 225-235 range, but offhand has far and away been my worst stage, and I would really like to improve my performance standing.

For myself, I think part of the problem is psychological. I remember distinctly the first time I tried to shoot standing when I was a skinny, weak teenager. I felt as if I was lucky to hit the wall at the far end of the range at 50 feet. I got the impression right then that I stunk shooting offhand, and that low expectation has sort of stuck with me.

As for shooting offhand at Appleseed I am going to throw out some thoughts that seem to be making a bit of a difference for me. Keep in mind these are not coming from some great offhand shooter, but from someone who has been trying to address exactly the same frustrations you are.

First, I have become convinced from talking with very good rifle target shooters that the two key elements for becoming a decent offhand shooter are discipline and practice. You need a lot of practice to refine your stance and trigger technique and to strengthen the muscles required.

Discipline is obviously required to make yourself do all that practice, but you also must have the discipline to simply not accept a bad shot. On stage 1 of the Appleseed AQT you have plenty of time so resist the temptation to accept a poor shot. I tend to hate the standing stage so much that I sometimes find myself rushing just to get the misery over with. This tendency just becomes worse and worse as you get tired. I tend to keep my standing practice sessions relatively short to avoid the bad habits that come with fatigue.

Stance is critical, and I have become convinced from watching other shooters and studying photos of top high power shooters that the same stance does not work for everybody. In any shooting posture, you want to maximize balance which maximizes skeletal support and minimizes muscular contraction and effort. Balancing requires taking into account the center of gravity of both you and the rifle. The rifle will place the combined center of gravity in front of your spinal column and somewhat towards the target. If you look at photos of many top shooters, they compensate by leaning their trunk somewhat back of their hips and away from the target. One champion rimfire shooter told me that she is always concentrating on eliminating unnecessary muscular tension during a stage. It is natural to start to "tense up" during a stage, perhaps even more so if you perceive you are doing well and starting to mentally tell yourself not to blow it.

I find that if the rules allow, as they do in Appleseed, rifle support is greatly enhanced by bringing the support elbow in against the body near the hip. If you look at photos of top high power shooters, they all seem to do this. It is also important to keep the head upright. On average the head weighs 8 pounds or more, and if you drop it way forward and down onto the rifle, you will reduce your skeletal support and balance. So bring the rifle butt up as needed to get the head upright.

Depending on your arm length and the target height, bracing your support elbow in against your body and keeping your head upright might require you to experiment with the configuration of your support arm hand. Some shooters will need to support the rifle with extended fingers and thumb or a lightly closed fist to get the sights on target. Some use a "lobster claw" or "reverse lobster claw" configuration and some support support the rifle on their open palm with all of the fingers and thumb on one side of the stock. Experiment to find what works best for you.

I have tried shooting with and without a sling for the offhand stage. So far, I seem to get better results with a sling. I use a leather 1907 type loop sling for sitting and prone, and switch to a USGI sling in the hasty configuration for standing. I have either a second spring steel J clip at the front end of the sling, or quick release button sling swivels at both ends, depending on the rifle I am using. This allows me to rapidly attach and detach the sling. There are two small tricks I have found that make the hasty sling work a bit better. One is when attaching the sling at the front of the stock, give it a half-twist clockwise before putting your arm through. This allows the sling to lie more smoothly against the wrist of your support hand. And after putting your support arm through the sling and getting it as high as possible, before mounting the butt of the rifle to your shoulder, pull the rifle down toward the ground to tension the sling. I bought an inexpensive leather shooting glove from Creedmoor which provides additional padding for the sling. If you have not tried shooting with a glove, you might consider doing so.

I would like to shoot with iron sights, but my eyes are simply no longer good enough. I need a scope especially to see those little "400 yard" scaled silhouettes. I have a fixed magnification 4X scope on one Ruger 10/22 and a 3-9X variable magnification on the other. For the offhand stage, with the variable magnification scope I keep it dialed down to 3X. I find that anything more than 3 or 4X magnifies my "wobble" too much which tends to increase my general anxiety and tendency to try to snatch the shot.

Although I avoid the tendency to snatch the shot, I do try to time the trigger break so that it coincides with my natural respiratory pause. I try to achieve a NPOA such that my scope is centered at end expiration. Unless you are very unusual, or doing something unusual, your sights will rise as you inhale and fall as you exhale, so there will be a natural up and down motion as you breathe. I have found that if I time my trigger press so that the break occurs just slightly before the sights drop to center, this up and down movement tends to reduce any side to side wobble. I used to find myself moderating my degree of exhalation to adjust the sight picture, but for me this was not consistent. So now I try to develop a cadence that allow the shot to break just as the sights drop down onto the center of the silhouette. If on the other hand, I exhale completely and then pause to try to center the sight picture, I start to get more of the dreaded side to side, or figure eight wobble.

HiBC · April 5, 2019, 04:19 PM

An older guy who mentored me building muzzle loaders gave me a tip.He was into flint locks.
Part of what the traditional muzzle loader has going for it is how it fits the body in a natural standing position.They were typically fired at roundball range standing on hind legs.

Modern bolt rifles have their roots in being a long handle for a bayonet and getting the belly as low in the dirt as possible prone. Standing up making offhand shots during 20th century combat was not a good way to grow old.

With a rifle that fits

A) settle into your natural point of aim. With NPA,the gun wants to be on target,it just wanders some.

B) IMO,this is the Jewel that Old Man gave me. When you can stand erect ,relaxed,your bones stacked natural,your head level and erect,bring the rifle to your face,not your face to the rfle.

That may take some stock adjustment. The critical pat,your inner ears. Having your head erect,your inner ears level makes a big difference! That's your balance control center.

Tilting your head will cost you in wobbles.

I seldom,if ever,see the inner ears mentioned regarding shooting standing. It matters handgun,too.

There is a timing/trigger control thing I agree trying to quick jerk the trigger when the sights are there does not work...and I'm not a competitive shooter or a coach,so why listen to me?

Rabbit hunting,there is a sweet spot where everything comes together.The rifle settles in ,the crosshairs find the head and the trigger squeeze s just timed as it all comes together. "The force be with you"

It can happen that you will shoot best if the gun goes off within a second or two of the sigts finding the target. If that doesn't happen,another oscillation might show up at about 3 seconds. You might get one more at 5 seconds.

For myself,IMO,thats about it. I don't keep chasing the shot. Rest,breath,recompose,refocus,then bring the rifle up again.

Terminatorret · April 5, 2019, 07:53 PM

Back in the dark ages, we Marines had to shoot offhand at 200 yards during annual requalification. Make sure you have a solid stance and one which your rifle naturally aligns with the target. (Close your eyes, bring up the rifle to firing position, open your eyes and move your aim onto the target by moving your feet, NOT by moving the rifle.) Furthermore, to master offhand accuracy the marksmanship instructors preached a SLOW trigger pull...stop squeezing when off target, resume the pull when on target.
It was common for the front sight to wander in a figure 8 pattern. Squeeze when on target, hold when off target.
That's about all I know about that...

Pathfinder45 · April 6, 2019, 01:05 AM

What Terminatorret says is correct according to how I was instructed and it works well. I will add one clarification in that you never let off the pressure on the trigger. Add pressure gradually when on target, maintain that pressure as you drift off, add more pressure as you drift back on, until the rifle discharges. It doesn't matter that the sights wander, it only matters that you have it pointed in the right direction when the rifle fires.

P-990 · April 6, 2019, 07:01 AM

Lots of great point and tips posted here. As you can see, it isn't exactly a one-size fits all plan to getting good at offhand shooting.

HiBC makes a great point regarding stock shape and fit. I find the standard "American classic" sporter rifle shape to be difficult to shoot offhand with. Usually the stocks are too straight, so you'll either end up with the toe of the stock at the top of your shoulder pocket (not a good idea with anything with noticeably recoil) or with the stock in your shoulder pocket, you end up having to scrunch your face down and mess up your balance.

My preference is for the Bavarian-style "humpback" stock, basically what CZ uses on their Fullstock and Lux models. This shape lets me keep my head up and face level. Many people state that these stocks "don't work with scopes" but I find them perfect for using a head's up shooting position with a compact scope. (Disclaimer, this shape doesn't work so well when trying to hunker down behind the rifle at a bench or prone.)

The other thing I just realized I'm not sure has been mentioned is FOLLOW THROUGH. Don't give up on the shot the moment the trigger breaks. Stay on the sights and on the stock until the rifle comes back on target from recoil. This applies to shooting in all positions, but seems to be easiest for people to break when shooting offhand. I've literally watched shooters turn the trigger break, recoil and dismount of the rifle into one fluid motion. DON'T DO THAT! Break the shot, keep your head on the stock and don't give up on the shot until it's away.

(It sounds like what I'm describing takes a lot longer than it really does. We're talking fractions of seconds for all of this movement to occur.)

surg_res · April 6, 2019, 02:25 PM

P-990, you shoot long range irons with both eyes? Great point about following through. So much to the psychology of shooting and motor muscle memory. This holds true in so many sports, I e golf. Often the more instructing, the worse the results. Pulling a shot is nothing more than outcome expectations interfering with repetitive motion.

Someone in this forum long ago said he would smile as he pulled the trigger. I've been doing that ever since and think it works. You must keep your thoughts separate from your cerebellum.

P-990 · April 13, 2019, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surg_res

P-990, you shoot long range irons with both eyes? Great point about following through. So much to the psychology of shooting and motor muscle memory. This holds true in so many sports, I e golf. Often the more instructing, the worse the results. Pulling a shot is nothing more than outcome expectations interfering with repetitive motion.

Someone in this forum long ago said he would smile as he pulled the trigger. I've been doing that ever since and think it works. You must keep your thoughts separate from your cerebellum.

Wow, sorry it's taken me a week to get to this! But yes, to answer the question, when I was shooting Service Rifle and Highpower matches, I would shoot 600 yards with both eyes open, iron sights on an AR-15.

I don't entirely agree with the more instruction = worse results. It depends on how focused the instructor and student are. This carries over to practice and shooting too. Believe it or not, once I had refined the skills, through practice and coaching, I was shooting my best match scores when I was shooting once a week, either a match or a practice, and dry-firing once or maybe twice a week in between live fire.

I do agree on the separating your conscious brain from the part that's in control of your shooting. The thoughts that used to go through my head when on the line at a match, well, many of them aren't fit to repeat in a public forum.

(I was almost 10 years younger...)

Picher · April 15, 2019, 06:26 AM

I never shot 50 foot gallery rifle as a kid, but may have shot a million B-Bs offhand at various things, like quart bottles on top of an old "burn barrel" in the back yard with my Daisy Pump guns. Sad to say that a lot of frogs, red squirrels, and a few tweeties bit the dust also.

I was naturally steady as a kid and nobody ever bested me. I wasn't the greatest at sports, but loved to play baseball, but hardly a decent day would go by that I didn't shoot BBs.

Later, I wore out a few .22 rifles, especially shooting Shorts in a cheap Rem. 514, but found that I could hold a 4x-scope mounted rifle steady enough to take advantage of the extended range on small game. Back then we shot rats in dumps and nothing was so much fun as shooting 50 or so rats in one outing.

I think the only times I shot prone or sitting was when I started hunting woodchucks with my deer rifle; a .30-06 with a 2.5x Weaver, but would shoot chucks only offhand out to at 100 yards or so.

I knew that I could hold fairly steady offhand, but didn't rush my shots. I was very patient and squeeze as the sights approached the target center from whatever direction, but NEVER after they passed dead center.

Probably the best advise I could give someone about shooting offhand is NOT to shoot at paper targets much, but shoot at metal silhouettes, cans, but NO BOTTLES and never at things floating in water that could submerge and cause hazards to bathers, or ricochets that fly out of your control area, etc.

If you want to enjoy shooting for a long time in your life, don't become only a "target shooter". That will take all the fun out of shooting. Be spontaneous, have FUN! Life's too short to be stuck shooting 3P. Ha ha!

(I'm going to get a lot of negative comments about this post. Bring 'em on!)

darkgael · April 17, 2019, 07:30 AM

Quote:

That will take all the fun out of shooting.

I cannot think of ANY kind of shooting that is not fun.

Pete

Niner4Tango · April 17, 2019, 03:42 PM

The below link is a great website that describes the fundamentals. There are four drop down arrows all with good info. You should be shooting in the same position as the young lady in the pic below. The ideal is to use skeletal bracing and eliminate supporting with muscle as much as possible. There are lots more examples of the offhand position by searching on Camp Perry or metallic silhouette.

Then practice your "hold", how small you can keep the size of your sight wandering on a target. You can do that at home with a target and you don't need to dry fire. Make your hold smaller and your groups will get smaller. Have fun!

https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/...ing/rifle.ashx

idek · April 17, 2019, 11:16 PM

I haven't posted for a while, but just wanted to chime in to say that I've been reading the continued input and appreciate it. I've been experimenting with some of the different suggestions. I probably need to devote more time to practice to decide what works best for me yet.

Picher · April 18, 2019, 09:17 AM

Some of the best shooting practice for hunting was when we used to shoot rats in town dumps. It taught us how to mount the rifle and shoot quickly, almost instinctively. There aren't any town dumps anymore, but shooting at .22 metallic silhouette targets are great fun. The ones that you knock down, then go down range to re-set teach you to hold carefully. The ones that reset automatically tend to be boring, IMHO.

Ricklin · April 18, 2019, 10:05 AM

I learned to shoot a .22 really well eliminating jack rabbits.

Twas mid and late 1970's in the San Joaquin valley in CA. The local fruit processing plant would store huge piles of pits from whatever fruit they were processing on their large property.

As long as we practiced safety us airmen were permitted to come in and shoot jack rabbits to our hearts content. Killed one heck of a lot of jack rabbits.

The fruit pits would create a population explosion, rabbits and unlimited food. Over time the food source would go away and a mass die off would occur.

A bullet beats starving to death.

5whiskey · April 18, 2019, 10:57 AM

Quote:

3) Finally, at the project appleseed event, they had us shoot offhand with a hasty sling technique. But I've heard other people say a sling doesn't really help offhand shooting, since the strong arm/elbow isn't supported the way it is in other positions. Thoughts on the use of a sling for offhand shooting?

While I think learning to shoot offhand without a sling is important, I also believe it is patently false that a hasty sling cannot help. As one poster said, do the "GI Wrap" where you loop the sling around your weak arm. Doing this and tucking the weak arm close helps form bone support.

Quote:

The below link is a great website that describes the fundamentals. There are four drop down arrows all with good info. You should be shooting in the same position as the young lady in the pic below. The ideal is to use skeletal bracing and eliminate supporting with muscle as much as possible.

Post #39 with the poster is a decent visual of a pretty good standing off-hand position without the aid of a sling. N4T is spot on above with the bold, eliminate as much "muscleing" of the weapon as possible. Go for bone support. In the poster, notice how the weak arm is tucked in and the elbow is supported somewhat by the hip. A hasty sling can replace this aggressive tuck somewhat, but you still want to tuck the weak elbow close to the body. Using the sling properly (as in tight enough that your weak arm is slightly uncomfortable) also almost forces your strong arm to hold the rifle down at the grip as the sling will act as a lever and will want to pull the muzzle down and force the stock up.

Other advice has also been great. Even with sling or hip support, you will notice a figure 8 pattern. Break the shot in the middle of the figure 8. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! This is where the .22 or a pistol caliber carbine with cheap ammo and low recoil shine. Also use natural point of aim. With your arms as relaxed as you can make them with you still holding the rifle on target, if you need to make gross side to side adjustment move your feet and not your hips/rifle.

HiBC · April 18, 2019, 11:19 AM

The above illustration is good,it shows principles,but I'll point out the obvious.

There are a lot of variations on skeletons. My elbow reaches the bottom of my ribs. My hip bone is 6 in lower.I'd have to contort my bones out of a good natural stack to put my elbow on my hip.

I do benefit from having my upper arm rest on my ribs...but some shooting disciplines require daylight between the arm and the chest.

Folks,I don't even claim to be a good shot.

But note,in the above pic,the comb height,raised up to her face. The buttplate dropped,

She offsets her weight some to counterbalance the rifle, A more massive upper body would require less offset.

She still has her bones stacked natural,head and shoulders erect,nd the rifle is brought to her face.

My foggy brain might have this wrong...please set me straight if I am,but the folks who shot Scheutzen style,offhand,lead bullets,black powder,false muzzles,and muzzle loaded....Shooting with a Pope barrel,or a barrel made by a handful of men who were Pope's peers,

Were shooting in the range of 2 MOA at 200 yds.

pblanc · April 18, 2019, 01:36 PM

If you study photographs of top level high power rifle shooters you will see a very significant variation in their posture and exactly how they hold the rifle. Which stands to reason because we all have different builds, different distributions of body mass, different limb lengths, etc, as HIBC pointed out.

Most will find some degree of upper body lean back and away from the target beneficial. The center of gravity of the rifle must necessarily be in front of and towards the target with regard to our skeletal axis of support. Some degree of lean gets the rifle COG closer to that axis of skeletal support and makes the rifle easier to hold and level. But too much lean will place the combined COG of rifle and shooter too far off the skeletal axis of support and will, therefore, require more muscular support to maintain balance. Those with less upper body mass and a lower center of gravity, like the young woman in the photo, will likely find a greater degree of lean to be optimal.

The OP mentioned techniques applicable to Appleseed events in particular. Many rifle competition events preclude the use of a sling for rifle stabilization when shooting offhand. Appleseed does not, and most AS instructors tend to recommend the use of a sling in the "hasty" configuration when shooting standing, but it is not required.

Notice the high comb riser in the photo that allows the shooter's head to remain upright, the importance of which has already been mentioned. But most stock rifles are not going to have a comb of that height. Fortunately, the recoil of .22 LR rimfire rifles and .223 Remington center fire rifles is quite light. This allows the rifle to be held high with only a portion of the butt stock supported by the shoulder. In fact, if you look at high power shooters with AR type rifles in the standing position, only the very tip of the butt stock is usually in contact with their shoulder. The NRA and CMP high power rules require that at least some portion of the rifle butt must be in contact with the shoulder. If they did not, I suspect you would find some shooters holding the rifle with the tip of the stock riding on the top of their shoulder.

When the Appleseed concept got started, surplus M1 Garand rifles and surplus 30.06 ammunition were much cheaper than they are today and a lot of shooters used them at AS events. With that much more powerful cartridge, having only the very tip of the rifle butt in contact with the shoulder was not very comfortable. A lot of AS instructors will still teach shooters to hold their strong side elbow up at 90 degrees to the vertical in a "chicken wing" position. This will deepen and define the "shoulder pocket" that the rifle butt fits into which allows for potentially greater consistency in rifle stock placement and more comfortable recoil absorption. But it is unnecessary for managing the recoil of a light recoiling cartridge, and with an unmodified rifle stock, it usually requires dropping the head forward onto the stock comb in order to align the iron sights and achieve a good cheek weld, both of which are counterproductive. And holding the strong side elbow up at 90 degrees introduces muscular tension in the shooting arm.

So a particular position or technique that is beneficial in one way can be detrimental in another. Each individual shooter will likely need to experiment extensively to refine their position and achieve the optimal balance for these various nuances of technique.

Picher · May 8, 2019, 07:18 AM

If you're shooting for fun and practice, perhaps not toward formal target shooting, it doesn't matter much if you miss a few shots, so practice shooting quickly, but smoothly, as the sights cross the target the first time.

You'll find that you'll be able to make a SMOOTH, but quick squeeze (not a jerk reaction) as the sights near the center of the target. If you do it correctly, your misses will be very close and if not at the target center, a bit before crossing the center.

It takes practice and if you have a bolt rifle, even remove the bolt to practice getting to the target center and squeezing smoothly and firmly near target center. You'll probably find that, without the expectation of the rifle firing, your smooth, but fast squeeze will get you within the "kill zone" about every time.

Practice, especially perfect practice improves your skills, whether actually firing or not.

April 4, 2019, 02:54 PM	#27
Erno86 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2012 Location: Marriottsville, Maryland Posts: 1,739	With a crowd or just one or two people watching you shoot...you have to put it in you're mind, that these people want to see you score a good shot on the target and not miss. That crowd is cheering you on so don't worry about it. __________________ That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." --- George Orwell

April 4, 2019, 08:17 PM	#29
surg_res Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2005 Location: Texas, 5th GEN! Posts: 621	Enjoyed this thread! Grew up shooting 'off hand' and never knew it was a formal position until reading about it on the web years later... To me, a rifle is an instrument with a purpose. If one struggles to simply shoot from a standing position but needs to, he has either the wrong rifle for the purpose or the wrong purpose for the rifle. Nothing beats a walk in the field with a rifle and a need or desire to use it. Something very OCD about the pleasure of shooting and wondering what others think. Hunting with a shotgun probably best practice I can think of--not much bench work there. __________________ ----

April 5, 2019, 03:46 PM	#30
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	I have shot at several Appleseed events and I am struggling with exactly the same issue you are. I shot 22 lr rifle way back in Junior High School (think 1960s) and just started taking up rifle shooting again a couple of years ago. At Appleseed I have been able to fairly easily qualify as Rifleman each time, with scores generally in the 225-235 range, but offhand has far and away been my worst stage, and I would really like to improve my performance standing. For myself, I think part of the problem is psychological. I remember distinctly the first time I tried to shoot standing when I was a skinny, weak teenager. I felt as if I was lucky to hit the wall at the far end of the range at 50 feet. I got the impression right then that I stunk shooting offhand, and that low expectation has sort of stuck with me. As for shooting offhand at Appleseed I am going to throw out some thoughts that seem to be making a bit of a difference for me. Keep in mind these are not coming from some great offhand shooter, but from someone who has been trying to address exactly the same frustrations you are. First, I have become convinced from talking with very good rifle target shooters that the two key elements for becoming a decent offhand shooter are discipline and practice. You need a lot of practice to refine your stance and trigger technique and to strengthen the muscles required. Discipline is obviously required to make yourself do all that practice, but you also must have the discipline to simply not accept a bad shot. On stage 1 of the Appleseed AQT you have plenty of time so resist the temptation to accept a poor shot. I tend to hate the standing stage so much that I sometimes find myself rushing just to get the misery over with. This tendency just becomes worse and worse as you get tired. I tend to keep my standing practice sessions relatively short to avoid the bad habits that come with fatigue. Stance is critical, and I have become convinced from watching other shooters and studying photos of top high power shooters that the same stance does not work for everybody. In any shooting posture, you want to maximize balance which maximizes skeletal support and minimizes muscular contraction and effort. Balancing requires taking into account the center of gravity of both you and the rifle. The rifle will place the combined center of gravity in front of your spinal column and somewhat towards the target. If you look at photos of many top shooters, they compensate by leaning their trunk somewhat back of their hips and away from the target. One champion rimfire shooter told me that she is always concentrating on eliminating unnecessary muscular tension during a stage. It is natural to start to "tense up" during a stage, perhaps even more so if you perceive you are doing well and starting to mentally tell yourself not to blow it. I find that if the rules allow, as they do in Appleseed, rifle support is greatly enhanced by bringing the support elbow in against the body near the hip. If you look at photos of top high power shooters, they all seem to do this. It is also important to keep the head upright. On average the head weighs 8 pounds or more, and if you drop it way forward and down onto the rifle, you will reduce your skeletal support and balance. So bring the rifle butt up as needed to get the head upright. Depending on your arm length and the target height, bracing your support elbow in against your body and keeping your head upright might require you to experiment with the configuration of your support arm hand. Some shooters will need to support the rifle with extended fingers and thumb or a lightly closed fist to get the sights on target. Some use a "lobster claw" or "reverse lobster claw" configuration and some support support the rifle on their open palm with all of the fingers and thumb on one side of the stock. Experiment to find what works best for you. I have tried shooting with and without a sling for the offhand stage. So far, I seem to get better results with a sling. I use a leather 1907 type loop sling for sitting and prone, and switch to a USGI sling in the hasty configuration for standing. I have either a second spring steel J clip at the front end of the sling, or quick release button sling swivels at both ends, depending on the rifle I am using. This allows me to rapidly attach and detach the sling. There are two small tricks I have found that make the hasty sling work a bit better. One is when attaching the sling at the front of the stock, give it a half-twist clockwise before putting your arm through. This allows the sling to lie more smoothly against the wrist of your support hand. And after putting your support arm through the sling and getting it as high as possible, before mounting the butt of the rifle to your shoulder, pull the rifle down toward the ground to tension the sling. I bought an inexpensive leather shooting glove from Creedmoor which provides additional padding for the sling. If you have not tried shooting with a glove, you might consider doing so. I would like to shoot with iron sights, but my eyes are simply no longer good enough. I need a scope especially to see those little "400 yard" scaled silhouettes. I have a fixed magnification 4X scope on one Ruger 10/22 and a 3-9X variable magnification on the other. For the offhand stage, with the variable magnification scope I keep it dialed down to 3X. I find that anything more than 3 or 4X magnifies my "wobble" too much which tends to increase my general anxiety and tendency to try to snatch the shot. Although I avoid the tendency to snatch the shot, I do try to time the trigger break so that it coincides with my natural respiratory pause. I try to achieve a NPOA such that my scope is centered at end expiration. Unless you are very unusual, or doing something unusual, your sights will rise as you inhale and fall as you exhale, so there will be a natural up and down motion as you breathe. I have found that if I time my trigger press so that the break occurs just slightly before the sights drop to center, this up and down movement tends to reduce any side to side wobble. I used to find myself moderating my degree of exhalation to adjust the sight picture, but for me this was not consistent. So now I try to develop a cadence that allow the shot to break just as the sights drop down onto the center of the silhouette. If on the other hand, I exhale completely and then pause to try to center the sight picture, I start to get more of the dreaded side to side, or figure eight wobble. Last edited by pblanc; April 5, 2019 at 03:54 PM.

April 5, 2019, 04:19 PM	#31
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	An older guy who mentored me building muzzle loaders gave me a tip.He was into flint locks. Part of what the traditional muzzle loader has going for it is how it fits the body in a natural standing position.They were typically fired at roundball range standing on hind legs. Modern bolt rifles have their roots in being a long handle for a bayonet and getting the belly as low in the dirt as possible prone. Standing up making offhand shots during 20th century combat was not a good way to grow old. With a rifle that fits A) settle into your natural point of aim. With NPA,the gun wants to be on target,it just wanders some. B) IMO,this is the Jewel that Old Man gave me. When you can stand erect ,relaxed,your bones stacked natural,your head level and erect,bring the rifle to your face,not your face to the rfle. That may take some stock adjustment. The critical pat,your inner ears. Having your head erect,your inner ears level makes a big difference! That's your balance control center. Tilting your head will cost you in wobbles. I seldom,if ever,see the inner ears mentioned regarding shooting standing. It matters handgun,too. There is a timing/trigger control thing I agree trying to quick jerk the trigger when the sights are there does not work...and I'm not a competitive shooter or a coach,so why listen to me? Rabbit hunting,there is a sweet spot where everything comes together.The rifle settles in ,the crosshairs find the head and the trigger squeeze s just timed as it all comes together. "The force be with you" It can happen that you will shoot best if the gun goes off within a second or two of the sigts finding the target. If that doesn't happen,another oscillation might show up at about 3 seconds. You might get one more at 5 seconds. For myself,IMO,thats about it. I don't keep chasing the shot. Rest,breath,recompose,refocus,then bring the rifle up again. Last edited by HiBC; April 5, 2019 at 04:32 PM.

April 5, 2019, 07:53 PM	#32
Terminatorret Member Join Date: January 27, 2015 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 73	Back in the dark ages, we Marines had to shoot offhand at 200 yards during annual requalification. Make sure you have a solid stance and one which your rifle naturally aligns with the target. (Close your eyes, bring up the rifle to firing position, open your eyes and move your aim onto the target by moving your feet, NOT by moving the rifle.) Furthermore, to master offhand accuracy the marksmanship instructors preached a SLOW trigger pull...stop squeezing when off target, resume the pull when on target. It was common for the front sight to wander in a figure 8 pattern. Squeeze when on target, hold when off target. That's about all I know about that... __________________ "You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." Davy Crockett, hero of the Alamo.

April 4, 2019, 12:51 PM	#26
IdaD Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2018 Location: Idaho Posts: 107	I'll answer from my primary experience which is hunting. If you have a variable scope, keep the magnification dialed down as low as possible. In my experience you aren't going to be, or at least shouldn't be, taking long shots offhand. More likely it'll be a closer shot and you can find your target easier with less magnification. It also won't magnify your movement which always messes me up. I don't use any specific technique to manage the movement of my rifle, I just try to keep it slow and break the trigger when the crosshairs are in the target area. Managing the break on a light single stage rifle trigger hasn't ever been difficult because you don't have to pull far or hard to get to the break. I'll also echo others and say if you can avoid it, don't shoot offhand. Even just leaning against a tree or getting down on one knee helps tremendously.

April 6, 2019, 01:05 AM	#33
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	What Terminatorret says is correct according to how I was instructed and it works well. I will add one clarification in that you never let off the pressure on the trigger. Add pressure gradually when on target, maintain that pressure as you drift off, add more pressure as you drift back on, until the rifle discharges. It doesn't matter that the sights wander, it only matters that you have it pointed in the right direction when the rifle fires.

April 6, 2019, 07:01 AM	#34
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: Only1/2WayThere Posts: 1,316	Lots of great point and tips posted here. As you can see, it isn't exactly a one-size fits all plan to getting good at offhand shooting. HiBC makes a great point regarding stock shape and fit. I find the standard "American classic" sporter rifle shape to be difficult to shoot offhand with. Usually the stocks are too straight, so you'll either end up with the toe of the stock at the top of your shoulder pocket (not a good idea with anything with noticeably recoil) or with the stock in your shoulder pocket, you end up having to scrunch your face down and mess up your balance. My preference is for the Bavarian-style "humpback" stock, basically what CZ uses on their Fullstock and Lux models. This shape lets me keep my head up and face level. Many people state that these stocks "don't work with scopes" but I find them perfect for using a head's up shooting position with a compact scope. (Disclaimer, this shape doesn't work so well when trying to hunker down behind the rifle at a bench or prone.) The other thing I just realized I'm not sure has been mentioned is FOLLOW THROUGH. Don't give up on the shot the moment the trigger breaks. Stay on the sights and on the stock until the rifle comes back on target from recoil. This applies to shooting in all positions, but seems to be easiest for people to break when shooting offhand. I've literally watched shooters turn the trigger break, recoil and dismount of the rifle into one fluid motion. DON'T DO THAT! Break the shot, keep your head on the stock and don't give up on the shot until it's away. (It sounds like what I'm describing takes a lot longer than it really does. We're talking fractions of seconds for all of this movement to occur.) __________________ NRA Master, Highpower Rifle, Across-the-Course NRA Expert, Highpower Rifle, Mid-Range Prone

April 6, 2019, 02:25 PM	#35
surg_res Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2005 Location: Texas, 5th GEN! Posts: 621	P-990, you shoot long range irons with both eyes? Great point about following through. So much to the psychology of shooting and motor muscle memory. This holds true in so many sports, I e golf. Often the more instructing, the worse the results. Pulling a shot is nothing more than outcome expectations interfering with repetitive motion. Someone in this forum long ago said he would smile as he pulled the trigger. I've been doing that ever since and think it works. You must keep your thoughts separate from your cerebellum. __________________ ----

April 15, 2019, 06:26 AM	#37
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	I never shot 50 foot gallery rifle as a kid, but may have shot a million B-Bs offhand at various things, like quart bottles on top of an old "burn barrel" in the back yard with my Daisy Pump guns. Sad to say that a lot of frogs, red squirrels, and a few tweeties bit the dust also. I was naturally steady as a kid and nobody ever bested me. I wasn't the greatest at sports, but loved to play baseball, but hardly a decent day would go by that I didn't shoot BBs. Later, I wore out a few .22 rifles, especially shooting Shorts in a cheap Rem. 514, but found that I could hold a 4x-scope mounted rifle steady enough to take advantage of the extended range on small game. Back then we shot rats in dumps and nothing was so much fun as shooting 50 or so rats in one outing. I think the only times I shot prone or sitting was when I started hunting woodchucks with my deer rifle; a .30-06 with a 2.5x Weaver, but would shoot chucks only offhand out to at 100 yards or so. I knew that I could hold fairly steady offhand, but didn't rush my shots. I was very patient and squeeze as the sights approached the target center from whatever direction, but NEVER after they passed dead center. Probably the best advise I could give someone about shooting offhand is NOT to shoot at paper targets much, but shoot at metal silhouettes, cans, but NO BOTTLES and never at things floating in water that could submerge and cause hazards to bathers, or ricochets that fly out of your control area, etc. If you want to enjoy shooting for a long time in your life, don't become only a "target shooter". That will take all the fun out of shooting. Be spontaneous, have FUN! Life's too short to be stuck shooting 3P. Ha ha! (I'm going to get a lot of negative comments about this post. Bring 'em on!)

April 17, 2019, 03:42 PM	#39
Niner4Tango Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 287	The below link is a great website that describes the fundamentals. There are four drop down arrows all with good info. You should be shooting in the same position as the young lady in the pic below. The ideal is to use skeletal bracing and eliminate supporting with muscle as much as possible. There are lots more examples of the offhand position by searching on Camp Perry or metallic silhouette. Then practice your "hold", how small you can keep the size of your sight wandering on a target. You can do that at home with a target and you don't need to dry fire. Make your hold smaller and your groups will get smaller. Have fun! https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/...ing/rifle.ashx

April 17, 2019, 11:16 PM	#40
idek Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Posts: 903	I haven't posted for a while, but just wanted to chime in to say that I've been reading the continued input and appreciate it. I've been experimenting with some of the different suggestions. I probably need to devote more time to practice to decide what works best for me yet.

April 18, 2019, 09:17 AM	#41
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	Some of the best shooting practice for hunting was when we used to shoot rats in town dumps. It taught us how to mount the rifle and shoot quickly, almost instinctively. There aren't any town dumps anymore, but shooting at .22 metallic silhouette targets are great fun. The ones that you knock down, then go down range to re-set teach you to hold carefully. The ones that reset automatically tend to be boring, IMHO.

April 18, 2019, 10:05 AM	#42
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,011	Best practice I learned to shoot a .22 really well eliminating jack rabbits. Twas mid and late 1970's in the San Joaquin valley in CA. The local fruit processing plant would store huge piles of pits from whatever fruit they were processing on their large property. As long as we practiced safety us airmen were permitted to come in and shoot jack rabbits to our hearts content. Killed one heck of a lot of jack rabbits. The fruit pits would create a population explosion, rabbits and unlimited food. Over time the food source would go away and a mass die off would occur. A bullet beats starving to death. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

April 18, 2019, 11:19 AM	#44
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	The above illustration is good,it shows principles,but I'll point out the obvious. There are a lot of variations on skeletons. My elbow reaches the bottom of my ribs. My hip bone is 6 in lower.I'd have to contort my bones out of a good natural stack to put my elbow on my hip. I do benefit from having my upper arm rest on my ribs...but some shooting disciplines require daylight between the arm and the chest. Folks,I don't even claim to be a good shot. But note,in the above pic,the comb height,raised up to her face. The buttplate dropped, She offsets her weight some to counterbalance the rifle, A more massive upper body would require less offset. She still has her bones stacked natural,head and shoulders erect,nd the rifle is brought to her face. My foggy brain might have this wrong...please set me straight if I am,but the folks who shot Scheutzen style,offhand,lead bullets,black powder,false muzzles,and muzzle loaded....Shooting with a Pope barrel,or a barrel made by a handful of men who were Pope's peers, Were shooting in the range of 2 MOA at 200 yds. Last edited by HiBC; April 18, 2019 at 11:28 AM.

April 18, 2019, 01:36 PM	#45
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	If you study photographs of top level high power rifle shooters you will see a very significant variation in their posture and exactly how they hold the rifle. Which stands to reason because we all have different builds, different distributions of body mass, different limb lengths, etc, as HIBC pointed out. Most will find some degree of upper body lean back and away from the target beneficial. The center of gravity of the rifle must necessarily be in front of and towards the target with regard to our skeletal axis of support. Some degree of lean gets the rifle COG closer to that axis of skeletal support and makes the rifle easier to hold and level. But too much lean will place the combined COG of rifle and shooter too far off the skeletal axis of support and will, therefore, require more muscular support to maintain balance. Those with less upper body mass and a lower center of gravity, like the young woman in the photo, will likely find a greater degree of lean to be optimal. The OP mentioned techniques applicable to Appleseed events in particular. Many rifle competition events preclude the use of a sling for rifle stabilization when shooting offhand. Appleseed does not, and most AS instructors tend to recommend the use of a sling in the "hasty" configuration when shooting standing, but it is not required. Notice the high comb riser in the photo that allows the shooter's head to remain upright, the importance of which has already been mentioned. But most stock rifles are not going to have a comb of that height. Fortunately, the recoil of .22 LR rimfire rifles and .223 Remington center fire rifles is quite light. This allows the rifle to be held high with only a portion of the butt stock supported by the shoulder. In fact, if you look at high power shooters with AR type rifles in the standing position, only the very tip of the butt stock is usually in contact with their shoulder. The NRA and CMP high power rules require that at least some portion of the rifle butt must be in contact with the shoulder. If they did not, I suspect you would find some shooters holding the rifle with the tip of the stock riding on the top of their shoulder. When the Appleseed concept got started, surplus M1 Garand rifles and surplus 30.06 ammunition were much cheaper than they are today and a lot of shooters used them at AS events. With that much more powerful cartridge, having only the very tip of the rifle butt in contact with the shoulder was not very comfortable. A lot of AS instructors will still teach shooters to hold their strong side elbow up at 90 degrees to the vertical in a "chicken wing" position. This will deepen and define the "shoulder pocket" that the rifle butt fits into which allows for potentially greater consistency in rifle stock placement and more comfortable recoil absorption. But it is unnecessary for managing the recoil of a light recoiling cartridge, and with an unmodified rifle stock, it usually requires dropping the head forward onto the stock comb in order to align the iron sights and achieve a good cheek weld, both of which are counterproductive. And holding the strong side elbow up at 90 degrees introduces muscular tension in the shooting arm. So a particular position or technique that is beneficial in one way can be detrimental in another. Each individual shooter will likely need to experiment extensively to refine their position and achieve the optimal balance for these various nuances of technique. Last edited by pblanc; April 18, 2019 at 01:41 PM.

May 8, 2019, 07:18 AM	#46
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	If you're shooting for fun and practice, perhaps not toward formal target shooting, it doesn't matter much if you miss a few shots, so practice shooting quickly, but smoothly, as the sights cross the target the first time. You'll find that you'll be able to make a SMOOTH, but quick squeeze (not a jerk reaction) as the sights near the center of the target. If you do it correctly, your misses will be very close and if not at the target center, a bit before crossing the center. It takes practice and if you have a bolt rifle, even remove the bolt to practice getting to the target center and squeezing smoothly and firmly near target center. You'll probably find that, without the expectation of the rifle firing, your smooth, but fast squeeze will get you within the "kill zone" about every time. Practice, especially perfect practice improves your skills, whether actually firing or not.