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Old June 14, 2019, 12:24 AM   #1
Geezerbiker
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Microsoft ammo?

I'm joking a bit. I found one odd case in my stash of .223 brass. The head stamp reads WIN NT 5.56mm...

Anybody seen this head stamp before?

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Old June 14, 2019, 01:16 AM   #2
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In .45 Auto, "NT" denotes "Non-Toxic." It uses primers that don't emit lead styphnate (sp?) into the atmosphere.
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Old June 14, 2019, 04:53 AM   #3
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It could be said it is used to open Windows in your enemies souls...just kidding.
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Old June 14, 2019, 09:31 AM   #4
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ROFLOL!!!

I bet the cycle rate is positively awful!!!!! But it'll fire slowly in 96% of firearms......
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Old June 14, 2019, 11:47 AM   #5
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Actually not entirely a joke. The Defense department's study of non-toxic primers¹ found ignition delays as high as 0.085 seconds could occur. That's longer than a number of full auto cycle times and would be added to cycle time.


¹ Non-toxic primers use DDNT instead of lead styphnate as the sensitizer. The combustion products produced by burning lead styphnate includes toxic water-soluble lead compounds.
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Old June 14, 2019, 12:33 PM   #6
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Unfortunately, though, I fear the industry is moving in that direction. I occasionally supplement my stash of brass by scrounging the discards pails at the range when I shoot. I'm mostly looking for .45 ACP, and I prefer Winchester (for no particular reason -- "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of feeble minds"). Recently, I've found that I have to be much more diligent about checking each case, either before or after tumbling, to weed out the NT stuff because, in .45 ACP, it makes a difference. Conventional ammo uses large pistol primers but WIN NT in .45 ACP uses small pistol primers.

That's not an issue with 5.56x45, but the fact that I'm encountering more of the stuff suggests that its use is becoming more prevalent.
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Old June 14, 2019, 01:39 PM   #7
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Federal has developed a new "green" primer with neither DDNT nor lead styphnate they call their Catalyst primer. So far, they are only talking about using it in factory NT ammo, but eventually I expect that will change. I know nothing of ignition delays with it, so it may not be an issue. We'll have to wait and see, but I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't one of the shortcomings they sought to overcome. I think they may have had in mind the 5.56 NATO M855A1 green cartridge.
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Old June 14, 2019, 02:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Recently, I've found that I have to be much more diligent about checking each case, either before or after tumbling, to weed out the NT stuff because, in .45 ACP, it makes a difference. Conventional ammo uses large pistol primers but WIN NT in .45 ACP uses small pistol primers.
Ya fix that by shooting a S&W 625 and pick up 6 at a time in a moon clip
Couldn't resist
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Old June 14, 2019, 02:19 PM   #9
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So I now know what the NT is for but what about the WIN? Would that be Winchester?

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Old June 14, 2019, 03:32 PM   #10
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"So I now know what the NT is for but what about the WIN? Would that be Winchester?"

YUP!
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Old June 14, 2019, 10:58 PM   #11
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I have some Unis Ginex Large Pistol Primers (made in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is one country). Someone told me they are non-toxic. Their web-site says their primers are heavy metal free:

"all types of pistol and revolver ammunition, with SINOXIDE and EKO (heavy metal free) priming mixture"

Now, I am offering a reward for any WIN95 or WINXP brass of $5 per piece. Software and product key not needed.

Quote:
Recently, I've found that I have to be much more diligent about checking each case, either before or after tumbling, to weed out the NT stuff because, in .45 ACP, it makes a difference. Conventional ammo uses large pistol primers but WIN NT in .45 ACP uses small pistol primers.
This is NOT TRUE. Not all Small Pistol Primer (SPP) 45 brass is NT. You need to separate out (and toss) the SPP 45 brass regardless of NT or not. I have found that almost all SPP 45 brass to be headstamps I did not want to reload like Blazer.
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Last edited by Unclenick; June 15, 2019 at 10:52 AM. Reason: same topic posted at close to the same time without any intermediate posts going up. Edit would have done it.
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Old June 15, 2019, 12:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo
Quote:
Recently, I've found that I have to be much more diligent about checking each case, either before or after tumbling, to weed out the NT stuff because, in .45 ACP, it makes a difference. Conventional ammo uses large pistol primers but WIN NT in .45 ACP uses small pistol primers.
This is NOT TRUE. Not all Small Pistol Primer (SPP) 45 brass is NT. You need to separate out (and toss) the SPP 45 brass regardless of NT or not. I have found that almost all SPP 45 brass to be headstamps I did not want to reload like Blazer.
Sorry, but what I wrote IS true. I didn't write that all SPP .45 brass is NT. I had previously stated that I collect Winchester brass. In .45 ACP, Winchester brass with a small pistol primer is NT, and is so marked on the headstamp.

I don't deal with Blazer brass.
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Old June 15, 2019, 03:11 AM   #13
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I haven't shot my M1911 enough lately to need to get new brass and where I shoot nobody leaves anything useful behind.

I don't know where I came across this one .223 Win NT case but I might keep it around for the humor factor.

I worked in computer IT for several years before returning to the bike biz and Win NT on a cartridge case is down right funny to me. For those not in the know, WinNT is the directory (folder for people with less years around computers) where the install files are stored on the CD...

Tony
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Old June 15, 2019, 07:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo View Post

Now, I am offering a reward for any WIN95 or WINXP brass of $5 per piece. Software and product key not needed.
LOL! I don't know - I prefer WIN 98SE over 95 or XP But then I was supporting 64 call centers at the time too.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo View Post
I have found that almost all SPP 45 brass to be headstamps I did not want to reload like Blazer.
Yup - I find SSP 45 ACP in Speer, Federal, and Blazer. I sort it for trade stock.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SSP_45_ACP.jpg (90.3 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by Unclenick; June 15, 2019 at 10:53 AM. Reason: same topic posted at close to the same time without any intermediate posts going up. Edit would have done it.
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Old June 15, 2019, 11:23 AM   #15
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.45 ACP NT brass used large pistol primers when it first came out. The problem was the DDNT used has higher brisance (suddenness of explosion) than lead styphnate and made enough gas so quickly in a large pistol primer that it could back the primer out hard enough to flatten and pierce pistol primer cups. To solve that, they had to drill the flash holes out to a larger size. Later they just switched to small pistol primers because they make less gas and the diameter of a standard flash hole is large enough in proportion to the narrow diameter to vent the gas better, and the narrower SPP cup is more rigid than an LPP cup the same thickness. Today, all you see are the SPP DDNT pistol primers, but you still find the old large flash hole NT cases on occasion.

More recently, as with the Federal Catalyst primers I mentioned, non-DDNT lead-free formulations are appearing. Perhaps the Sinoxid primers are among them. One of the problems with DDNT, in addition to the ignition delays, is moisture deterioration. There is a concern they won't have a great shelf life, though I believe this has been improved.

Here's a rundown of what the DOD found.
Here's the DOD-funded study.

Since the Sinoxid primer was the first to use lead styphnate, it is interesting to hear they are going lead-free. They will need to have an MSDS available and it may reveal what they are using. The article I linked to about the Federal Catalyst primer explains most of its ingredients, though a proprietary sensitizing mix is involved. What is fascinating is Federal is convinced it will ignite powder with the reliability of a magnum primer while producing the combustion consistency of a weak primer. It should add up to lower velocity SD's for all.
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Old June 18, 2019, 04:15 AM   #16
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Windows brass would never make it to my guns. They can't even open my email when I need to, why would I trust my life with it? The squirrels here get pretty violent.
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Old June 19, 2019, 08:49 AM   #17
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Marco Califo,

I tried to follow the link you posted, but Malwarebytes blocked me, stating there was a trojan on the site. Probably it is something the site makes your computer load to view it and it may or may be harmless, but I took the "abundance of caution" approach and removed the link to be sure other members don't catch something.

I went to the RWS site to check on the Sinoxide formulation and it is not lead-free. Still, lead styphnate as it was originally. I think this sentence:

"all types of pistol and revolver ammunition, with SINOXIDE and EKO (heavy metal free) priming mixture"

is actually saying their Sinoxid primers have lead but their EKO primers are heavy metal-free.

Also, I want to correct something I said in Post #5 in case you didn't infer it from my post #15. The Federal Catalyst primers are not just being aimed at the non-toxic ammunition market. Federal says all their commercial ammunition will be loaded with them because of their superior characteristics.

Things are changing.
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Old June 19, 2019, 09:24 AM   #18
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I think Federal developed the Catalyst bismuth primer for a lucrative government unleaded order. It is already showing up in commercial ammo, especially the copper bullet no lead a-tall stuff. I think it is bound to work its way through their entire ammo lineup, displacing the present DDNT NT early on.

Question is, will they push the Catalyst primers on handloaders for our own good? If so will they be as sensitive as our good old basic lead styphnate Federals? Or will I have to buy stronger mainsprings for my target revolvers?

Now, what about CCI/Speer? Under the same conglomerate, will they go along with Federal?
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Old June 19, 2019, 10:38 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Unclenick View Post
Actually not entirely a joke. The Defense department's study of non-toxic primers¹ found ignition delays as high as 0.085 seconds could occur. That's longer than a number of full auto cycle times and would be added to cycle time.


¹ Non-toxic primers use DDNT instead of lead styphnate as the sensitizer. The combustion products produced by burning lead styphnate includes toxic water-soluble lead compounds.
I can just imagine sitting there waiting for 0.085 second's to pass. I'd have to have cup of coffee with me!
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Old June 19, 2019, 02:46 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson
Question is, will they push the Catalyst primers on handloaders for our own good? If so will they be as sensitive as our good old basic lead styphnate Federals? Or will I have to buy stronger mainsprings for my target revolvers?

Jim,

If the article on them I linked to is correct, they are actually better than conventional primers, including Federal's match primers. They would have to meet military sensitivity specs, at the very least, and have none of the added ignition delay nonsense that DDNT introduced.

The improvement is due to them being able to get enough heat energy through the powder mass to ignite powder at a lower gas pressure than conventional priming flame requires. I expect that means the new mix is burning hotter. But that property lets you use an amount of priming mix that contributes less to the overall pressure so you wind up with your powder charge having more complete control of total pressure and primer-to-primer variation having less effect on it.

It's going to go into their manufactured ammo first, like all new and improved components do, because they make the most money off of them that way. There's been no mention of them replacing the current component primers, but I'd have to say, if they actually make match ammo better, then eventually that will occur.

I am wondering, from that article's description, if they will render the magnum primer obsolete? But they haven't claimed that, so far.

Until some of the ammo comes out for testing and is used by some top competitors, we won't have a final verdict on it.


Quote:
Now, what about CCI/Speer? Under the same conglomerate, will they go along with Federal?
That's a good question. I suppose it depends on whether the holdings are being run as separate profit centers or not. If so, would guess CCI is working on something of their own. Otherwise, they will probably have to license Federal's development at some point in order to remain qualified as a military supplier.

As far as I know, Olin is still the only maker and supplier of both normal and basic lead styphnate into the industry, so this will impact that part of their business.
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Old June 19, 2019, 03:45 PM   #21
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Nothing means anything until some GOOD shooters get ammo and we can hope they get some primers, too.

Federal and CCI appear to be in cahoots on Blazer Brass = .FC.
I doubt they will have any trouble sharing primer mixes within Vista Outdoor.

I didn't know Olin made everybody's styphnate.
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Old June 20, 2019, 12:02 PM   #22
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You are correct that the Vista Outdoor group brands do some sharing. I know Alliant does all of Speer's load manual pressure testing, for example, but then they do that for hire anyway. Norma, which is not owned by them, says that brass is something different manufacturers make for each other all the time. It usually happens when one of them gets a large contract for one chambering that ties up their capacity and so, to maintain stock for other chamberings, have someone else to run that brass. Norma says that in addition to making brass for other European countries and for Weatherby ammunition, they've made Remington cases. They also make Nosler Custom Competition brass. Anyway, I can't tell how much of this service trading is just industry standard and how much is peculiar to the Vista Outdoor group.
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Old June 20, 2019, 02:07 PM   #23
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Starline has made brass with various big name headstamps, too.

An example of collaboration that has stayed with me is the gunzine writeup when the 7mm '08 was new on the market.
The writer got a rifle and Remington 140 gr Corelokt ammo. At least that is what it said on the box. He pulled one down to check. The bullet weighed 139 grains and when sectioned showed distinctive internal structure. Yup, Hornady Interlock.
The powder was ball process. The same charge weight of WW 748 gave the same velocity. So much for secret sauce factory ammo gunpowder. They don't ALWAYS use stuff you cannot match.


It was once thought that some WWB identifiable by a suffix on the item number was made for them by IMI Israel.

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Old June 20, 2019, 02:33 PM   #24
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And I have read in more than two places that some Winchester "white box" ammo is made by Sellier & Bellot. And that may make sense. As I've commented, I shoot and reload primarily .45 ACP, and I get brass by scrounging the discard buckets at the range. On occasion I'll take almost anything in .45 ACP, but I'm always on the prowl for Winchester.

Most Winchester brass in .45 ACP has the "Winchester" and ".45 AUTO" stamped in clear, sharp characters. Sometimes, though, I'll come up with a fistful on which the headstamps are considerably less clear. The character strokes are wider, and the edges are less sharp. This could mean that batch was made with a worn-out stamping die -- or it could mean that it was made in a different factory.
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Old June 20, 2019, 09:49 PM   #25
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The newer lighter headstamping is laser etching. Norma (USA) is using it on their 223 cheap ammo. I noticed the same thing on recently acquired Win. I do prefer the old school deep stamp like S&B put on 45 ACP.
Guess which is cheaper to make and you will be seeing more of?
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