.264 Winchester Magnum or 6.5-06 A-Square

nicknitro71 · September 23, 2012, 08:08 AM

I'm in the process of building a custom long action rifle for open f class.

Initially I was going with a .300 Winchester Magnum but without a muzzle brake I do not enjoy shooting it much and brakes are not allowed in NRA high power rifle competitions.

So I decided to go with a 6.5mm as their 140 grain has an incredible ballistic coefficient in par with a .300 200 grain or a 7mm 180 grain but with much less kick.

As I'm set on a long Winchester 70 style action I narrowed down my choice to the .264 Winchester Magnum or the 6.5-06 A-Square both very odd cartridges.

The Magnum brass is 64mm long and has a 13.1mm base diameter, the -06 is 63.3mm long with a diameter of 11.9. The rifle will have a 32" barrel so velocity is going to be very high for both.

Brass availability is very scarce for the -06 but one can easily use a 25-06 case.

Having had zero experienced with both, I was wondering from a stand-point of a reloader which will make more sense.

hooligan1 · September 23, 2012, 08:17 AM

the 6.5-06, loaded normally will probably last longer, but their neck in neck as far as popularity goes, (give or take alittle) go with the cheaper brass!

yadkin · September 23, 2012, 09:36 AM

What holligan1 said go with cheaper and easiest to find brass.

old roper · September 23, 2012, 11:08 AM

I think the choice would be on what is the bolt face set up for or do you have two bolt for it?

nicknitro71 · September 23, 2012, 11:38 AM

I don't have a bolt yet. It'll be a custom Montana Rifle long action, a copy of the pre-64 Winchester 70. The sole purpose of this built is extreme accuracy and precision at 1000 yards and I do want a long action. I know the .264 WM takes nearly 20 grains of powder more than the -06 in order to get the right pressure and that will translate in about 100-150 fps more velocity but then again with a 32" barrel, the 6.5-06 will be plenty fast.

old roper · September 23, 2012, 02:45 PM

I'm not a match shooter anymore (BR with 6ppc) but I do follow some of it on 6br site f-class open. Lot of good calibers such as 284 with 180gr bullets

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ome-built-gun/

Few years ago I have 284 build on a long action one of my hunting rifles and low 3000fps with 160gr bullet isn't bad and you got good brass for the 284 now.

Clifford L. Hughes · September 23, 2012, 07:32 PM

I have a Winchester Modle 70 in 264 Remington magnum. When I was reloading for it I could barely exceed Winchester .270 veloitcy. Given the huge quanity of powder that the .264 takes to achieve velocities of a 30-06 based case, I would most likely choose the 6.5/06. With your long barrel and a proper secection of slow powder you will get plenty of velocity.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery Sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

**Mike Irwin** · September 24, 2012, 11:00 AM

Given the choice, I'll go anything else before I go anything with a belted case.

hooligan1 · September 24, 2012, 03:13 PM

Mike please explain why you don't care for a "belted cartridge"?

nicknitro71 · September 25, 2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Given the choice, I'll go anything else before I go anything with a belted case.

You guys understand that ALL Winchester magnum cases are belted and that includes the .300WM which by the way is the most popular big hunting cartages not to mention the preferred sniping round of the US military.

I've never had a problem reloading the .300WM so I cannot see why I'm going to have issues with the .264WM if I so decide to go down that route.

Scorch · September 25, 2012, 11:31 AM

I will preface my post by saying that I really like a 6.5-06, I had one years ago and it shot really well. For match shooting, I would always choose the round that will give me the desired muzzle velocity with the least amount of powder, as this will reduce recoil, and by the end of a match the recoil can really add up. A quick check of reloading data shows that the 264 WinMag uses about 15% more powder than the 6.5-06 to achieve the same velocity with any bullet weight. That same reloading data shows that the 264 Win Mag achieves only about 100 fps more velocity than the 6.5-06 with any given bullet weight but with a 2" longer barrel. I don't see much gain to going with the mag, so I would recommend the 6.5-06 with a 26" or longer barrel.

**Mike Irwin** · September 25, 2012, 01:33 PM

"You guys understand that ALL Winchester magnum cases are belted and that includes the .300WM which by the way is the most popular big hunting cartages not to mention the preferred sniping round of the US military."

Yes, I do, and I've always considered that to be a huge annoyance on Winchester's part.

I also know that belted cartridges they're more annoying to deal with when reloading, especially repeated loadings, and they are, GENERALLY, more difficult to bring to precise accuracy.

One of the biggest issues that I find with reloading them is the tendency for the brass to flow back to form a bulge ahead of the shoulder if one needs to full-length size.

The belt served a distinct function 115 years ago when the British introduced it -- as a means of getting precise head space control without a rim and near flawless feeding through a magazine.

The could have done the same with using a sharper shoulder and no belt, but there were a couple of issues with that directly related to the cordite propellant.

First, cordite had to be loaded in the case while it was still straight walled, THEN the case was shouldered and necked. Because of the amount of space taken up by cordite, long, shallow shoulders were preferred, otherwise the cordite could form a compressed plug at the shoulder and lead to a combination of erratic performance and pressure spikes.

Second, because cordite could also be very techy in very hot climates like India and Africa, it allowed gunmakers to cut a generous chamber around the neck and shoulder, which did a good job of helping control pressure spikes from hot cartridges.

Today, though, belts aren't necessary and I greatly prefer the ease of not having to deal with them.

Oh, and regarding the "preferred sniping round of the US military.... Not quite true.

The Army and Marine Corps use several rounds for sniping, including the .308/7.62x51, the .338 Lapua Magnum, and the .50 BMG.

So, US forces use three non belted cartridges for sniping purposes and one belted cartridge.

**Mike Irwin** · September 25, 2012, 01:35 PM

Oh, and if John Rigby could design one of the most successful and highly thought of dangerous game cartridges of all time, and do it in a rimless, beltless, case, that's more than good enough for me.

joneb · September 26, 2012, 10:17 PM

I would consider the 6.5x284 Norma.

nicknitro71 · September 27, 2012, 07:41 AM

Quote:

I would consider the 6.5x284 Norma.

Great round but I'm really stuck with the idea of the long action proper, even tho I know that some load the 6.5X284 in long actions in order to seat the bullet as high as possible without having magazine clearance issues.

At this point, it seems I'm going with the 6.5-06 as I'm a big fan of the .30-06 brass in general but I have not made up my mind yet...

TheLongRanger · October 2, 2012, 05:49 PM

Can you single-load your rounds in Open F-class? If you can, then you can move the bullet up out of the case for extra powder space, and then there's NO reason to even think about the belted beast. This thing'll flat FLY, given a little extra room. You can easily duplicate the .264's velocities, while Still using a lot less powder. I've got my 6.5-06 throated so that my OAL with a 130-or 140 Berger is 3.440----but ya gotta single-load, for obvious reasons. Recoil is still negligible.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is barrel life. Since the victorian-looking 6.5 retains the parent 30-06's 17'30" (A-square likes to call it 19) shoulder angle, you can expect barrel life to nearly approach human life, as long as you stay with heavier projectiles and medium slow to very slow propellants. Definitely NOT TRUE with the Winny round!

A third thing, that's maybe true for only my home-built, but I suspect may be true for the caliber, is that this thing is so easy to load for. It seems to like everything! I've yet to run a test load through it that approaches 1 minute of angle. My largest group to date has been .898 c/c, and that was with a 123gr Sierra crammed .010 into the rifling, at a maximum of 49 gr of H4350---WAY HOT in this rifle. But my very first test loads with this bullet, .020 off the lands, and 45, 46, and 47 gr of the same powder, went into .258, .454, and .404, respective, while fire-forming cases. My cases are F. A. military match, totally bench rest prepared, but the necks fuzzed to leave them .014 thick per side,(gives .002 clearance in my chamber) and WLR lighters were used throughout.

Yer gonna luv this cartridge!!!! Fegedabadit!!!!

nicknitro71 · October 2, 2012, 08:51 PM

I made up my mind, it'll be a 6.5-06!

joneb · October 2, 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

I made up my mind, it'll be a 6.5-06!

I'm curious, what twist rate will this rifle have ? 32" barrel ? What bullet and weight do you plan to shoot ?

nicknitro71 · October 3, 2012, 07:12 AM

Bergers 140 MHT, I'm still debating between 8 and 9 twist. It'll be deep throated to allow for maximum SAAMI length of 3.44". Berger recommends 8 twist but a 9 with such a long barrel should do it as well. I'm not planning on shooting anything lighter than 140.

hooligan1 · October 3, 2012, 11:51 AM

For the 6.5-06, the nosler book recomends a 1in9 inch twist, 24 inch barrel brings out the best of the 6.5-06... My advice is try all the bullets and find the ones that perform the very best.

GeauxTide · October 4, 2012, 07:28 PM

You'll be glad you got the '06. Mine is 1-9. I don't shoot heavier than 140s.

joneb · October 4, 2012, 09:21 PM

I would think the slower twist would be better, less resistance.
Is there a point of diminishing returns in regards to barrel length ?

nicknitro71 · October 5, 2012, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Is there a point of diminishing returns in regards to barrel length ?

Probably there is but 30-32" even if it's long to nowadays standards, it used to the be common place. Keep in mind that the longer the barrel, the stiffer it has to be to compensate for flexing. Mine is going to be a straight 1.25" tube.

I'm planning to use slow burning magnum powder to take full advantage of the extra length.

I'll be a long road of experimentations before I can break any records!

JerryM · October 5, 2012, 03:12 PM

My objection to the belted case is that chambers do not seem to be held to as close tolerances as for non-belted cartridges. As a result there is more stretching and the cases do not last as long. The become thinned just above the belt, and separate if not checked regularly.

I found this in both the 7MM Rem Mag, and 300 Wby Mag.

Of course if you do not reload you do not experience this problem.

Jerry

September 23, 2012, 08:08 AM	#1
nicknitro71 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2008 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 110	.264 Winchester Magnum or 6.5-06 A-Square I'm in the process of building a custom long action rifle for open f class. Initially I was going with a .300 Winchester Magnum but without a muzzle brake I do not enjoy shooting it much and brakes are not allowed in NRA high power rifle competitions. So I decided to go with a 6.5mm as their 140 grain has an incredible ballistic coefficient in par with a .300 200 grain or a 7mm 180 grain but with much less kick. As I'm set on a long Winchester 70 style action I narrowed down my choice to the .264 Winchester Magnum or the 6.5-06 A-Square both very odd cartridges. The Magnum brass is 64mm long and has a 13.1mm base diameter, the -06 is 63.3mm long with a diameter of 11.9. The rifle will have a 32" barrel so velocity is going to be very high for both. Brass availability is very scarce for the -06 but one can easily use a 25-06 case. Having had zero experienced with both, I was wondering from a stand-point of a reloader which will make more sense. __________________ http://nitrorigging.com

September 23, 2012, 08:17 AM	#2
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	the 6.5-06, loaded normally will probably last longer, but their neck in neck as far as popularity goes, (give or take alittle) go with the cheaper brass! __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

September 23, 2012, 11:08 AM	#4
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	I think the choice would be on what is the bolt face set up for or do you have two bolt for it? __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

September 23, 2012, 11:38 AM	#5
nicknitro71 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2008 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 110	I don't have a bolt yet. It'll be a custom Montana Rifle long action, a copy of the pre-64 Winchester 70. The sole purpose of this built is extreme accuracy and precision at 1000 yards and I do want a long action. I know the .264 WM takes nearly 20 grains of powder more than the -06 in order to get the right pressure and that will translate in about 100-150 fps more velocity but then again with a 32" barrel, the 6.5-06 will be plenty fast. __________________ http://nitrorigging.com

September 23, 2012, 02:45 PM	#6
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	I'm not a match shooter anymore (BR with 6ppc) but I do follow some of it on 6br site f-class open. Lot of good calibers such as 284 with 180gr bullets http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ome-built-gun/ Few years ago I have 284 build on a long action one of my hunting rifles and low 3000fps with 160gr bullet isn't bad and you got good brass for the 284 now. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

September 23, 2012, 09:36 AM	#3
yadkin Member Join Date: September 21, 2012 Location: North Alabama The Heart o Posts: 32	What holligan1 said go with cheaper and easiest to find brass.

September 23, 2012, 07:32 PM	#7
Clifford L. Hughes Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Southern Californis Posts: 795	I have a Winchester Modle 70 in 264 Remington magnum. When I was reloading for it I could barely exceed Winchester .270 veloitcy. Given the huge quanity of powder that the .264 takes to achieve velocities of a 30-06 based case, I would most likely choose the 6.5/06. With your long barrel and a proper secection of slow powder you will get plenty of velocity. Semper Fi. Gunnery Sergeant Clifford L. Hughes USMC Retired

September 24, 2012, 11:00 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Given the choice, I'll go anything else before I go anything with a belted case. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 24, 2012, 03:13 PM	#9
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Mike please explain why you don't care for a "belted cartridge"? __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

September 25, 2012, 11:31 AM	#11
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I will preface my post by saying that I really like a 6.5-06, I had one years ago and it shot really well. For match shooting, I would always choose the round that will give me the desired muzzle velocity with the least amount of powder, as this will reduce recoil, and by the end of a match the recoil can really add up. A quick check of reloading data shows that the 264 WinMag uses about 15% more powder than the 6.5-06 to achieve the same velocity with any bullet weight. That same reloading data shows that the 264 Win Mag achieves only about 100 fps more velocity than the 6.5-06 with any given bullet weight but with a 2" longer barrel. I don't see much gain to going with the mag, so I would recommend the 6.5-06 with a 26" or longer barrel. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

September 25, 2012, 01:33 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	"You guys understand that ALL Winchester magnum cases are belted and that includes the .300WM which by the way is the most popular big hunting cartages not to mention the preferred sniping round of the US military." Yes, I do, and I've always considered that to be a huge annoyance on Winchester's part. I also know that belted cartridges they're more annoying to deal with when reloading, especially repeated loadings, and they are, GENERALLY, more difficult to bring to precise accuracy. One of the biggest issues that I find with reloading them is the tendency for the brass to flow back to form a bulge ahead of the shoulder if one needs to full-length size. The belt served a distinct function 115 years ago when the British introduced it -- as a means of getting precise head space control without a rim and near flawless feeding through a magazine. The could have done the same with using a sharper shoulder and no belt, but there were a couple of issues with that directly related to the cordite propellant. First, cordite had to be loaded in the case while it was still straight walled, THEN the case was shouldered and necked. Because of the amount of space taken up by cordite, long, shallow shoulders were preferred, otherwise the cordite could form a compressed plug at the shoulder and lead to a combination of erratic performance and pressure spikes. Second, because cordite could also be very techy in very hot climates like India and Africa, it allowed gunmakers to cut a generous chamber around the neck and shoulder, which did a good job of helping control pressure spikes from hot cartridges. Today, though, belts aren't necessary and I greatly prefer the ease of not having to deal with them. Oh, and regarding the "preferred sniping round of the US military.... Not quite true. The Army and Marine Corps use several rounds for sniping, including the .308/7.62x51, the .338 Lapua Magnum, and the .50 BMG. So, US forces use three non belted cartridges for sniping purposes and one belted cartridge. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 25, 2012, 01:35 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	Oh, and if John Rigby could design one of the most successful and highly thought of dangerous game cartridges of all time, and do it in a rimless, beltless, case, that's more than good enough for me. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

September 26, 2012, 10:17 PM	#14
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I would consider the 6.5x284 Norma.

October 2, 2012, 05:49 PM	#16
TheLongRanger Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2012 Posts: 1	Can you single-load your rounds in Open F-class? If you can, then you can move the bullet up out of the case for extra powder space, and then there's NO reason to even think about the belted beast. This thing'll flat FLY, given a little extra room. You can easily duplicate the .264's velocities, while Still using a lot less powder. I've got my 6.5-06 throated so that my OAL with a 130-or 140 Berger is 3.440----but ya gotta single-load, for obvious reasons. Recoil is still negligible. One thing that hasn't been brought up is barrel life. Since the victorian-looking 6.5 retains the parent 30-06's 17'30" (A-square likes to call it 19) shoulder angle, you can expect barrel life to nearly approach human life, as long as you stay with heavier projectiles and medium slow to very slow propellants. Definitely NOT TRUE with the Winny round! A third thing, that's maybe true for only my home-built, but I suspect may be true for the caliber, is that this thing is so easy to load for. It seems to like everything! I've yet to run a test load through it that approaches 1 minute of angle. My largest group to date has been .898 c/c, and that was with a 123gr Sierra crammed .010 into the rifling, at a maximum of 49 gr of H4350---WAY HOT in this rifle. But my very first test loads with this bullet, .020 off the lands, and 45, 46, and 47 gr of the same powder, went into .258, .454, and .404, respective, while fire-forming cases. My cases are F. A. military match, totally bench rest prepared, but the necks fuzzed to leave them .014 thick per side,(gives .002 clearance in my chamber) and WLR lighters were used throughout. Yer gonna luv this cartridge!!!! Fegedabadit!!!!

October 2, 2012, 08:51 PM	#17
nicknitro71 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2008 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 110	I made up my mind, it'll be a 6.5-06! __________________ http://nitrorigging.com

October 3, 2012, 07:12 AM	#19
nicknitro71 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2008 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 110	Bergers 140 MHT, I'm still debating between 8 and 9 twist. It'll be deep throated to allow for maximum SAAMI length of 3.44". Berger recommends 8 twist but a 9 with such a long barrel should do it as well. I'm not planning on shooting anything lighter than 140. __________________ http://nitrorigging.com

October 3, 2012, 11:51 AM	#20
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	For the 6.5-06, the nosler book recomends a 1in9 inch twist, 24 inch barrel brings out the best of the 6.5-06... My advice is try all the bullets and find the ones that perform the very best. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

October 4, 2012, 07:28 PM	#21
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	You'll be glad you got the '06. Mine is 1-9. I don't shoot heavier than 140s.

October 4, 2012, 09:21 PM	#22
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I would think the slower twist would be better, less resistance. Is there a point of diminishing returns in regards to barrel length ?

October 5, 2012, 03:12 PM	#24
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	My objection to the belted case is that chambers do not seem to be held to as close tolerances as for non-belted cartridges. As a result there is more stretching and the cases do not last as long. The become thinned just above the belt, and separate if not checked regularly. I found this in both the 7MM Rem Mag, and 300 Wby Mag. Of course if you do not reload you do not experience this problem. Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.