Relative recoil of .357 loads

OhioGuy · August 8, 2020, 11:06 PM

I'm new to the .357 mag business. I've just run several 125 grain loads through my Kimber K6s (3") and had a lot of fun doing it

The manufacturer claims 1500 fps from a 4" barrel, which is about what's claimed by other "full power" loads (this is a brand called On Target which is literally the only ammo in this caliber I could actually get!). It's definitely got some recoil but not nearly as punishing as I was expecting. The flash is considerable.

I know there are loads that aren't as hot, some that are supposed to be made for shorter barrels and all that. My question is, do the loadings make that big a difference in felt recoil and flash, or is it pretty negligible? Almost all my shooting experience so far has been 9mm, and I've shot all kinds of stuff claiming to be lower recoil or whatnot and I can't say I've ever perceived a difference. I can't even tell that much difference between normal and +p in 9mm or .38. Maybe I'm not sensitive to it.

Anyways, if I'm going to carry .357 it would be awesome not to be blinded by the flash, but if all ammo is going to be comparable, should I just get the 125 Speer Gold Dot ammo? Or hunt for something else. I can get Hornady Critical Defense 125 loads at one site online, if I pay about $2/round for it. Everything else is outta stock on this planet it seems.

74A95 · August 8, 2020, 11:47 PM

They vary in recoil and flash depending on their speed and what powder is used.

You can calculate the recoil at several sites on the web (one is listed below) by plugging in the numbers. Make sure the numbers are from the same barrel length - 4" is what most factory ammo uses for their tests. For powder weight use - whatever, 10 grains will do. This varies and will affect recoil force too, but you won't have access to that information. But you can try different powder weights to see how much it contributes to the recoil. The most powder weight for a 357 will run around 20 grains with light bullets.

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

OhioGuy · August 9, 2020, 07:41 AM

When companies selling "premium self defense ammo" advertise less recoil and "low flash powders," are these real features or is it mostly marketing?

I know that in semi-autos, nickel cases supposedly have very good properties for expansion that make them less likely to have feeding and extraction problems (although unless a gun was extremely dirty I've really never had problems with brass, although aluminum is a different story).

In revolvers where nothing is cycling, does the case material matter much? If I can find good manageable training ammo with brass casing and JHB bullets, is there going to be much of a gain from going to a "premium" product?

For instance this On Target ammo I've ordered has brass cases, uses 125 Speer Gold Dot JHP bullets and advertises a velocity that pretty much advertises what Speer claims for its own premium self defense ammo, but it's almost half the price.

big al hunter · August 9, 2020, 08:21 AM

Quote:

When companies selling "premium self defense ammo" advertise less recoil and "low flash powders," are these real features or is it mostly marketing?

There are many powders available that have different burn rates. Faster burning powders have less flash than slow powders. The amount of flash varies with powder burn rate, length of the barrel and to some extent the weight of the bullets. If the powder is completely burned while the bullet is still in the barrel then there will be very little flash. There are some things that you give up when trying to reduce flash. Faster burning powders will generate the max pressure for a given cartridge earlier at lower velocities than the slower powder. Which in turn gives less recoil. The faster powder also takes up less space inside the cartridge. This can lead to inconsistent ignition and less accurate loads. So, yes they can make it flash less. And if you ask me it is a marketing ploy. Less flash, less recoil, less accuracy.....more money! Yes they are real features, but most people will not be able to feel the difference in recoil unless they load every other round as a full power and shoot them both. I will deal with a little extra flash. If it blinds me for a second, just think what it does to the bad guy!!

. We will both be temporarily deaf and blind, but I know my house better than him...

1911_Hardball · August 9, 2020, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

When companies selling "premium self defense ammo" advertise less recoil and "low flash powders," are these real features or is it mostly marketing?

It's a bit of both. Using a fast burn rate powder will produce less flash than a slower one. It will also, in theory, reduce the recoil impulse duration thereby reducing felt recoil; but it's unlikely that you would actually tell the difference. The less recoil part usually comes from using lighter bullets and/or slowing them down a bit.
e.g. a .357 load consisting of a 110gr bullet loaded with Unique or W231 to 1300fps will have less recoil and muzzle flash than a 125gr loaded with 2400 to the standard (for the 125) 1450fps.
How much of it is marketing and how much is practical difference is up to the person shooting them.
My only criteria for choosing a defensive load are reliability and terminal performance. If the one that seems the best in those regards happens to be the heaviest recoiling and brightest flash, so be it.

OhioGuy · August 9, 2020, 12:34 PM

So if I just carry the 125 Gold Dots I already have for now, in their brass cases loaded to (claimed) 1450 fps and that so far have been reliable over 100 rounds, I'm probably pretty well off without hunting for some specialized carry load.

I'm used to the semi-auto world where one gun will run Winchester JHP fine but choke on Hornady, and some other gun will be the reverse, and you have to run 100 rounds to make sure your gun likes your ammo, etc. and so forth. Revolvers sure are simpler.

DaleA · August 9, 2020, 02:43 PM

Quote:

So if I just carry the 125 Gold Dots I already have for now, in their brass cases loaded to (claimed) 1450 fps and that so far have been reliable over 100 rounds, I'm probably pretty well off without hunting for some specialized carry load.

IMhO I think you're just fine with the above. Sure it's possible something else might be a little bit "better" than the above but so many other factors, (chief among them is bullet placement) that are more important that I suspect we over think some of these things.

I personally have found the difference between 158 grain .357 magnum rounds and 125 grain .357 magnum rounds in the little Ruger LCR to be noticeably different as regards to recoil. That is, I just will not shoot the 158 grain rounds because they hurt my hand too much. I would shoot the 125 grain rounds but only a couple cylinders or so...10 or 15 rounds before I would call it quits.

I should mention that out of a mid-sized revolver, like a K-frame S&W, with a barrel longer than 4 inches I have no problems with the 158 grain rounds. (And things just get better with an L-frame or a Ruger GP-100 or an N-frame or one of the big Colts.)

1911_Hardball · August 9, 2020, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

So if I just carry the 125 Gold Dots I already have for now, in their brass cases loaded to (claimed) 1450 fps and that so far have been reliable over 100 rounds, I'm probably pretty well off without hunting for some specialized carry load.

Absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

I'm used to the semi-auto world where one gun will run Winchester JHP fine but choke on Hornady, and some other gun will be the reverse, and you have to run 100 rounds to make sure your gun likes your ammo, etc. and so forth. Revolvers sure are simpler.

Indeed.
There are pros and cons to everything, but ammo sensitivity is a virtually non existent issue with revolvers.

Dave T · August 12, 2020, 02:11 PM

You would do well to take the factory/claimed velocity figures with a large dose of salt. I have owned a chronograph since 1983 and the only factory ammunition I have tested that chronographs at the velocity claimed from a specified barrel length is Buffalo Bore.

Dave

HighValleyRanch · August 12, 2020, 02:33 PM

^^^^^^^This!

PocketCamera · August 15, 2020, 08:23 AM

get a full size gun. that ends the issue of recoil... seriously, with MINE that weighs out at 45 ounces, i cannot tell the difference in "recoil" between a 158 grain swc with 13 grains 2400 under it in a magnum case, or a factory 38 special or a factory magnum load.

grip, stance, gun weight are what counts. And ear protection.

bamaranger · August 16, 2020, 11:06 PM

For a period of time before my agency switched to auto's, the duty cartridge was .357 /125 JHP. Part of routine firearms qualification was reduced light, and depending on who was running the qualification, the amount of illumination could vary wildly, we often shot at night by headlight, sometimes in twilight, and one old fellow had us shooting in total darkness!

The amount of flash generated by the .357 could and did vary by make and from what product line the ammo came. It was not unusual to have various brands of .357/125 ammo being shot in the same qual. That was thirty years ago, but as I recall, the W-W stuff we had was very flashy, Rem was somewhere in the middle, and Federal seemed to have the least flash. All shooting was done with 4" S&W 686's.

jimbob86 · August 17, 2020, 10:52 AM

Quote:

You would do well to take the factory/claimed velocity figures with a large dose of salt.

True. They got their reading on their best day, with their best equipment ..... probably took hundreds of test and took the best one, because that number on the box sells boxes of ammo ..... you won't know until you run it through a reliable chronograph, out of your gun.

Also, FWIW, I can vouch that slow powders make for more muzzle flash ..... did a low light IDPA stage with a 6" Colt Trooper once, loaded with 158's over max charges of H110 ..... first target was arms length and you were supposed to back up while drawing... there were probably 2 dozen shooters before me, and the center zone was pretty shot up, held together mostly by pasters ..... at the beep, I backed up a step, drew and cranked two off, and the fireball blew what was left the center zone and 4 dozen or so smoldering pasters all over the floor behind the target ..... got "zero down", though ....

Hanshi · August 17, 2020, 05:36 PM

The heavier the bullet, the heavier the recoil. And velocity isn't the whole story. I only fire heavy loads in S&W "N" and "L" frame revolvers. My S&W M28 likes 158 grain gc bullets at 1450 fps. For the little M19 the bullet gets 1150 fps. I like 2400 and H110/296 but keep my house s-d arm loaded with factory 158 grain lead hollow points. Expansion at close range makes up for a lot. I've killed lots of deer with the 125 grn and 158 grn JHP and they both hit like hammers.

PocketCamera · August 18, 2020, 11:14 PM

fat and slow wins the day.

remember the issues from the miami fbi shoot out. we ALWAYS remember that with semi autos and JHP that doesnt penetrate many body parts, ie expands and penetrates the arm, but not the chest behind it...

158 grain lswchp is still the classic friend at 9-1100 fps.

1911_Hardball · August 19, 2020, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

fat and slow wins the day.

remember the issues from the miami fbi shoot out. we ALWAYS remember that with semi autos and JHP that doesnt penetrate many body parts, ie expands and penetrates the arm, but not the chest behind it...

158 grain lswchp is still the classic friend at 9-1100 fps.

Yep, and it was one of those rounds that finally ended the fight.

I've always felt that poor tactics/lack of training were more responsible for the fiasco than were inadequate weapons and/or ammo.

PocketCamera · August 19, 2020, 12:24 PM

if they had had an M1 garand, M14, or BAR at teh miami fbi shootout, it would have ended in 20 seconds flat.

or had 357 magnums loaded with an elmer keith hunting load.....

i loaded up HBWC in 38 special cases last night, used them this morning. 3.0 grains red dot, and 3.0-3.2 grains of Bulls Eye. they had MORE recoil then any SD load i have bought off the shelf for 38 +p. They actually felt like i was using PPU 158 grain sjhp 357 ammo.

and they were genuine 38 +p data from speer and alliant websites. and reverse loaded shot better and grouped better at 8 yards then the regulars at 20 yards.

THAT should tell you one shouldnt get hung up on recoil, as the reverse loaded actually had the heaviest recoil in my 45 ounce revolver, and shot the best, and shot the smallest group of the day.

ms6852 · August 19, 2020, 12:37 PM

I use full loads of 158 grains. When I shoot my 686 or python with 6" barrels it is not a big deal. I also carry a 686+ with a 3" barrel when I shoot the same loads at the range with my carry gun I have to use gloves after 30 rounds or I would not be able to shoot the usual couple of hundred rounds I like to shoot.

1911_Hardball · August 19, 2020, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

if they had had an M1 garand, M14, or BAR at teh miami fbi shootout, it would have ended in 20 seconds flat.
or had 357 magnums loaded with an elmer keith hunting load.....

Quite true.
Years ago a member of another forum had a signature line that, to me, says it all. "Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else is faeries dancing on the heads of pins."
I am a big fan of using the heavier bullets appropriate to the chosen caliber rather than the lighter. "Muzzle energy" is meaningless at handgun velocities. Hitting something vital is essential.

jetinteriorguy · August 22, 2020, 06:23 AM

My SD load is a pretty stout load of 2400 behind 158gr XTP’s. I like the recoil, it’s comparable to my .41 plinking load that I’m used to. Although as I’ve gotten older one box per session is enough for me. In the .41 my heavy loads about four to five cylinders is more than enough in a session.

August 8, 2020, 11:06 PM	#1
OhioGuy Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2016 Posts: 1,089	Relative recoil of .357 loads I'm new to the .357 mag business. I've just run several 125 grain loads through my Kimber K6s (3") and had a lot of fun doing it The manufacturer claims 1500 fps from a 4" barrel, which is about what's claimed by other "full power" loads (this is a brand called On Target which is literally the only ammo in this caliber I could actually get!). It's definitely got some recoil but not nearly as punishing as I was expecting. The flash is considerable. I know there are loads that aren't as hot, some that are supposed to be made for shorter barrels and all that. My question is, do the loadings make that big a difference in felt recoil and flash, or is it pretty negligible? Almost all my shooting experience so far has been 9mm, and I've shot all kinds of stuff claiming to be lower recoil or whatnot and I can't say I've ever perceived a difference. I can't even tell that much difference between normal and +p in 9mm or .38. Maybe I'm not sensitive to it. Anyways, if I'm going to carry .357 it would be awesome not to be blinded by the flash, but if all ammo is going to be comparable, should I just get the 125 Speer Gold Dot ammo? Or hunt for something else. I can get Hornady Critical Defense 125 loads at one site online, if I pay about $2/round for it. Everything else is outta stock on this planet it seems.

August 12, 2020, 02:11 PM	#9
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	You would do well to take the factory/claimed velocity figures with a large dose of salt. I have owned a chronograph since 1983 and the only factory ammunition I have tested that chronographs at the velocity claimed from a specified barrel length is Buffalo Bore. Dave __________________ RSVN '69-'71 PCSD Ret

August 12, 2020, 02:33 PM	#10
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	^^^^^^^This! __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

August 16, 2020, 11:06 PM	#12
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	flash For a period of time before my agency switched to auto's, the duty cartridge was .357 /125 JHP. Part of routine firearms qualification was reduced light, and depending on who was running the qualification, the amount of illumination could vary wildly, we often shot at night by headlight, sometimes in twilight, and one old fellow had us shooting in total darkness! The amount of flash generated by the .357 could and did vary by make and from what product line the ammo came. It was not unusual to have various brands of .357/125 ammo being shot in the same qual. That was thirty years ago, but as I recall, the W-W stuff we had was very flashy, Rem was somewhere in the middle, and Federal seemed to have the least flash. All shooting was done with 4" S&W 686's.

August 17, 2020, 05:36 PM	#14
Hanshi Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2017 Posts: 239	The heavier the bullet, the heavier the recoil. And velocity isn't the whole story. I only fire heavy loads in S&W "N" and "L" frame revolvers. My S&W M28 likes 158 grain gc bullets at 1450 fps. For the little M19 the bullet gets 1150 fps. I like 2400 and H110/296 but keep my house s-d arm loaded with factory 158 grain lead hollow points. Expansion at close range makes up for a lot. I've killed lots of deer with the 125 grn and 158 grn JHP and they both hit like hammers. __________________ Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

August 8, 2020, 11:47 PM	#2
74A95 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Posts: 1,564	They vary in recoil and flash depending on their speed and what powder is used. You can calculate the recoil at several sites on the web (one is listed below) by plugging in the numbers. Make sure the numbers are from the same barrel length - 4" is what most factory ammo uses for their tests. For powder weight use - whatever, 10 grains will do. This varies and will affect recoil force too, but you won't have access to that information. But you can try different powder weights to see how much it contributes to the recoil. The most powder weight for a 357 will run around 20 grains with light bullets. http://kwk.us/recoil.html

August 9, 2020, 07:41 AM	#3
OhioGuy Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2016 Posts: 1,089	When companies selling "premium self defense ammo" advertise less recoil and "low flash powders," are these real features or is it mostly marketing? I know that in semi-autos, nickel cases supposedly have very good properties for expansion that make them less likely to have feeding and extraction problems (although unless a gun was extremely dirty I've really never had problems with brass, although aluminum is a different story). In revolvers where nothing is cycling, does the case material matter much? If I can find good manageable training ammo with brass casing and JHB bullets, is there going to be much of a gain from going to a "premium" product? For instance this On Target ammo I've ordered has brass cases, uses 125 Speer Gold Dot JHP bullets and advertises a velocity that pretty much advertises what Speer claims for its own premium self defense ammo, but it's almost half the price.

August 9, 2020, 12:34 PM	#6
OhioGuy Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2016 Posts: 1,089	So if I just carry the 125 Gold Dots I already have for now, in their brass cases loaded to (claimed) 1450 fps and that so far have been reliable over 100 rounds, I'm probably pretty well off without hunting for some specialized carry load. I'm used to the semi-auto world where one gun will run Winchester JHP fine but choke on Hornady, and some other gun will be the reverse, and you have to run 100 rounds to make sure your gun likes your ammo, etc. and so forth. Revolvers sure are simpler.

August 15, 2020, 08:23 AM	#11
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	get a full size gun. that ends the issue of recoil... seriously, with MINE that weighs out at 45 ounces, i cannot tell the difference in "recoil" between a 158 grain swc with 13 grains 2400 under it in a magnum case, or a factory 38 special or a factory magnum load. grip, stance, gun weight are what counts. And ear protection.

August 18, 2020, 11:14 PM	#15
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	fat and slow wins the day. remember the issues from the miami fbi shoot out. we ALWAYS remember that with semi autos and JHP that doesnt penetrate many body parts, ie expands and penetrates the arm, but not the chest behind it... 158 grain lswchp is still the classic friend at 9-1100 fps.

August 19, 2020, 12:24 PM	#17
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	if they had had an M1 garand, M14, or BAR at teh miami fbi shootout, it would have ended in 20 seconds flat. or had 357 magnums loaded with an elmer keith hunting load..... i loaded up HBWC in 38 special cases last night, used them this morning. 3.0 grains red dot, and 3.0-3.2 grains of Bulls Eye. they had MORE recoil then any SD load i have bought off the shelf for 38 +p. They actually felt like i was using PPU 158 grain sjhp 357 ammo. and they were genuine 38 +p data from speer and alliant websites. and reverse loaded shot better and grouped better at 8 yards then the regulars at 20 yards. THAT should tell you one shouldnt get hung up on recoil, as the reverse loaded actually had the heaviest recoil in my 45 ounce revolver, and shot the best, and shot the smallest group of the day.

August 19, 2020, 12:37 PM	#18
ms6852 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 1,394	I use full loads of 158 grains. When I shoot my 686 or python with 6" barrels it is not a big deal. I also carry a 686+ with a 3" barrel when I shoot the same loads at the range with my carry gun I have to use gloves after 30 rounds or I would not be able to shoot the usual couple of hundred rounds I like to shoot. __________________ ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.

August 22, 2020, 06:23 AM	#20
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,172	My SD load is a pretty stout load of 2400 behind 158gr XTP’s. I like the recoil, it’s comparable to my .41 plinking load that I’m used to. Although as I’ve gotten older one box per session is enough for me. In the .41 my heavy loads about four to five cylinders is more than enough in a session.

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