Concealed carry

[ShootistPRS]

I was just reading another thread and didn't want to take it further off topic so I decided to put my post here and maybe we can discuss this.

I carry concealed most of the time but sometimes I open carry. The reason I carry is for self defense. I don't carry for battle and I don't carry to put down riots. It is a simple handgun for fending off a person who places me or those I love in mortal danger.
I figure that the job can be done with a single action revolver if you are good with it just as well as it can be done with a 10mm 15 round semi-auto that you are good with. The idea was brought up that a particular gun was not good for carry because it wasn't a "battle" gun.

Do you carry a battle gun or a self defense gun and what are your feelings on the differences?

[Powermwt]

When I was young and back packed a lot in my college days I carried openly a single action Hawes Western Marshall in a western style rig and it was evident the lawless hippy types on the trails in CA wanted to give my 6 shooter with 5 rounds in it a wide berth.

But, I was forever having issues with slow reloading so I upgraded to a S&W N frame (28) thinking I will be ok with a pair of speed loaders. I found when going out I would forget them most of the time and found myself walking back to the ranch house with 1 round left after shooting couple of rattlesnakes.

Upgrade to 226... never have had to use 16 rounds and a 26 for CCW.

Can you do it with 5... or the newer six shooters can use all 6, yes, you can.

The issue is do you want to depend on cocking that hammer back or just squeeze the trigger for another 10 to 33 rds?

I forgot to mention the G26 is about half the weight of my 1978 SuperBlackhawk.

[ShootistPRS]

In the "average" self defense shooting only 2.4 rounds are fired. If three guys break into a home those that are not hit flee after the first shots are fired. In defensive shooting the times you need more than five rounds are extremely rare.
I can use a single action well enough to hit what I point at. Three targets spread at three yards apart at 10 yards distance in just over 7 seconds. Cocking the hammer helps to bring the pistol back down from recoil. I'm a little faster with a DA revolver but slower with a semi-auto. (I am not yet used to shooting the semi, I've only had it for four months.

[zincwarrior]

Do you carry a battle gun or a self defense gun and what are your feelings on the differences?

I would think a "battle" gun would be a rifle.
What you carry for self defense is impacted by multiple factors:
*permitted dress.
*personal comfort.
*physical abilities.
*perceived danger.

Just three. What works for one person doesn't for another. For example, to use Power's example, when hiking in Cali decades ago I carried a Model 29 (at the time the largest caliber available), as four legged predators were more of an issue.

When carrying now I use an M&Pc as two legged predators are a different scenario altogether. The wife, who refuses to carry on person but does in her purse, carries a Beretta Hand Cannon.

[James K]

When i was a LEO, my off duty carry was a Chiefs Special (Model 60 S&W) with one speed loader. I carried the same gun when I left LE, and never felt unarmed or defenseless. I never thought to fight off the North Korean Army or even a major gang, but maybe things have changed so much that I should recommend one of those "shorty" AK's with an 80 round drum as the minimum needed.

Frankly some of the nonsense about "battle" and "combat" is bothersome. I recognize the desire/need for self-defense, but the idea of carrying multiple guns and tons of ammo is just plain silly and a juvenile fantasy. (And part of our problem - most legislators can and do recognize the right of self defense, but not many like the idea of thousands of gun toting gangs roaming the cities shooting down supposed "enemies of (name it)". That is not what self-defense is all about and not what the Second Amendment is about either.)

Anyway, there is little doubt that a SAA can serve as a self-defense firearm. But it has a lot of drawbacks that some fans of the SA just can't or won't admit. In most of the country, even in "gun friendly" states or cities, it is not legal to walk down the street wearing a low slung six gun, challenging old ladies to "fill your hand". To advocate that kind of nonsense is not defending yourself, it is the kind of childish fantasy me and my contemporaries engaged in when we left the Saturday afternoon matinee Westerns. (Those pesky "Injuns" never did attack - scared of our Roy Rogers 50-shot cap guns, I guess.)

My problem with open carry (except in remote areas while hunting or hiking) is that it bothers people and does so with no real reason except to boost our egos. It is like seeing people engaging in other activities in public, a "(blank) you" attitude that serves only to offend with no reasonable gain for whatever cause they are promoting. A good comparison might be running loud race cars in a city street and giving the finger to pedestrians.)

Of course, none of the above will change any minds. But I do ask that you think a little bit about the effect you may have on others when you open carry where non-gun folks are present. They do fear guns, or at least those who carry guns, and not without reason. They don't know you or your intent; consider how you look to others. And no, a "(blank) them I got my rights" attitude is not productive.

Jim

[ShootistPRS]

I use the words combat and battle as referring to guns interchangeably. I don't consider the police and sheriffs to be carrying "combat" or "battle" guns with the exception of swat teams. I carry, as the police and sheriffs do, a defense weapon. I am not typically dressed for combat or battle so even though I may carry a similar weapon it is not for combat. I thing the key here is the actions involved and not necessarily the gun itself. A S&W K frame could be a combat gun if it was used in a combat action while in the military - there were probably similar guns used in WWI. Maybe I am hung up on the connotation of "combat" and "battle" because in civilian defense situations the activities and reasons for them are different than in a combat situation.

[Eod1]

My friends in Indiana that are with the Sheriffs department carry in their vehicles a M16, 12 gauge shot gun, a ar15 colt in 9mm along with their duty weapon. Now in their personal vehicle the Department wants them to carry the same as their duty vehicle. So taking that advice along with my background. I carry a glock 17 highly motified and one extra mag. sometimes no extra mag. Now in the truck or car that I'm in I have a go bag. In there I have a little more. I won't talk about it because I don't want people to know. But trust me, its enough to take care of business.
My feelings are for battle. Because if you need it , its there. If you go looking for it and you don't have enough, well you might not be around long.

[ShootistPRS]

James,
When I carry openly I have never "flipped someone the bird" or even acted the least bit aggressive. I smile at folks, as I always do, and if they ask about it I explain why it is in the open. I have never had a cop stop me and in most places around here it is not objectionable to see a person wearing a gun. I realize that in some places, although it is legal, it causes people concern. They then call to report it and the cops come out to check for the safety of the public. There are likely more hunters and gun friendly folks in my little corner of America than in most places.

[zincwarrior]

My problem with open carry (except in remote areas while hunting or hiking) is that it bothers people and does so with no real reason except to boost our egos.

I agree. In the dinosaur era when I was growing up, it was common to see people / kids walking around with beater shotguns or rifles-it was a rural environment. I think I would be far more offput seeing a pistol OCer now than someone doing that. On the other hand the few non hunting OC incidents we saw in Texas prior to the law change with the people with rifles scared me, not that I was afraid of them, but that they looked like exactly the type of person most likely to accidentally shoot themselves or others.

[OldMarksman]

In the "average" self defense shooting only 2.4 rounds are fired.

According to Tom Givens, FBI stats show an average of 3.2 rounds per incident for FBI agents. But no one ever fired 3.2 rounds.

Givens tells us that DE agents have averaged five rounds per incident, on average.

Graduates of Givens' courses who have been involved in defensive shootings have averaged 3.8 rounds per incident, but no one ever fired 3.8 rounds. The range of the data was 1 to 12 rounds. I do not know the standard deviation.

If three guys break into a home those that are not hit flee after the first shots are fired.

Yes, most who are not hit do flee.

In defensive shooting the times you need more than five rounds are extremely rare.

What kind of margin of safely would you like? Do you want to end up with an empty gun?

I can use a single action well enough to hit what I point at.

Okay

Three targets spread at three yards apart at 10 yards distance in just over 7 seconds.

In seven seconds, an average attacker can move thirty five yards.

You should be trying to make something like two hits per second, or more.

[Aguila Blanca]

I carry a self defense pistol.

If I were to put on a uniform and go into battle again, I'd carry a battle pistol.

[Brit]

How wise is it, to exactly fill your vehicle, with exactly the correct amount of fuel, to get you home! Not very aye?

My every day carry, a Glock 19 4th Gen fully loaded with 16 rounds of 147g 9mm Ranger T. It is sitting in my right side track pants pocket just now.
I Phone phone in the left.

Any combination of burst fire is most likely OK here. Four rounds in a persons chest, look for cover, or more antagonists? 12 left! No worries as my Aussie buddy's would say. Plus this pistol ain't that heavy. Even carry an extra G17 mag full of NATO Hard ball, why? Why not?

[aarondhgraham]

It reads like you're looking for justification,,,
Or maybe a better word would be validation for your choice.

The reason I carry is for self defense. I don't carry for battle and I don't carry to put down riots. It is a simple handgun for fending off a person who places me or those I love in mortal danger.

If this is truly your reason to carry,,,
Why choose a handgun with an obvious disadvantage?

Buy yourself a DA/SA revolver or a semi-auto pistol,,,
Save the single-action guns for range fun.

JM(ns)HO,,,

Aarond

.

[Onward Allusion]

Carry for battle? Thankfully, I'm not doing any firefights. Battle would require a rifle.

I carry for SD & defense of those I care about.

[FireForged]

I think it is all semantics really.. there are not all that many ways to fight and generally speaking.. armed fighting is armed fighting.

When people reference "battle".. its typically a circumstances where you know you are going into combat and combat is sustained. If I were going into a war zone I would certainly arm myself differently than going to the corner market. Citizen CCW in public places is a compromise of sorts and not some sort of combat load out.

Single shot revolvers certainly did the job on plenty of occasions but it does come with certain intrinsic limitations. If you are ok with those limitations and are proficient with the weapon.. have at it.

On open carry: if your purpose is self defense and your mode of carry is a lesser included element of that ongoing initiative, I would probably limit myself to CCW. The goal being that we have more options in more widely varying circumstances. Broadcasting the fact that you are armed, where and by what means - may actually work against what you are trying to do. It does not mean that OC cannot offer a benefit in some limited circumstances, I think it can but odds are likely against it.

[FireForged]

Buy yourself a DA/SA revolver or a semi-auto pistol,,,
Save the single-action guns for range fun.

I agree that single action guns have some inherent limitations but its hardly a reason to be condescending. Maybe the man is good with his single action gun and if so, I am sure he is plenty capable with it. As far as any suggestion that single action guns are [only] for the range or for fun, I think the idea is rather naïve and amateuristic.

It reads like you're looking for justification,,,
Or maybe a better word would be validation for your choice.

wow

[TailGator]

First, a choice between a SAA and a 10-mm semi is a false dichotomy. There are many many choices in between.

If you honestly assess yourself to be more accurate and faster with an SAA than any other type of pistol, I would be surprised, but I would encourage you to carry what you shoot best. Just be aware that other people, some with good intentions and some with bad, are choosing other firearms with other capabilities.

Open carry or concealed carry depends in no small part on what is commonly seen and accepted in a given locale. I am not fan of open carry to provoke confrontation. It is not currently legal under most circumstances in my jurisdiction, though, so if it is generally accepted where you are, have at it. I think we all should strive to be good ambassadors for the cause of firearm ownership and use, however.

[zincwarrior]

I agree that single action guns have some inherent limitations but its hardly a reason to be condescending. Maybe the man is good with his single action gun and if so, I am sure he is plenty capable with it. As far as any suggestion that single action guns are [only] for the range or for fun, I think the idea is rather naïve and amateuristic.

Indeed, I am bit out on the latest revolvers, but if you are in bear country a high caliber SA revolver would be better than a lower caliber DA/SA no (if you are proficient in its use)? Funds may also be a factor. I'd rather have a Blackhawk than no hawk.

[JoeSixpack]

I'd say there is nothing wrong with your SA revolver if that's what you're practiced with and comfortable, then have at it.

I personally don't carry revolvers because im not practiced with reloading them under stress.

I don't consider a semi auto pistol a battle gun, or assault pistol as the antis like to label them these days.

Semi's just generally hold more and are faster to reload.. Someone once told me magazines are like time storage devices.. you spend more time loading the magazines but when you need them the time has already been spent before hand.

When you think about it, That's right, or at least it rings true for me.
If all I had was a SA revolver I'd use it but it's not so I don't.

Originally Posted by Onward Allusion

Carry for battle? Thankfully, I'm not doing any firefights. Battle would require a rifle.

I carry for SD & defense of those I care about.

+1 If I knew I was going to be walking into some ugly I'd have a long gun, or better yet just not go there in the first place.

Originally Posted by TailGator

First, a choice between a SAA and a 10-mm semi is a false dichotomy. There are many many choices in between.

+1 to this.
I've met no one in person and I can't even really recall anyone online who carries 10mm daily.
The people who are carrying 10mm are usually doing so in the wilderness, hiking and such, not on the street.

Personally I like 9mm best all things considered I think it's the most balanced pistol round in existence.

[Don Fischer]

Don't know how to put quote's in here. James K, great post. I don't care for open carry for the same reason's. People that are genuinely afraid of gun's don't need to know it's there. My goal is the protect myself, not unglue the timid!

[Rangerrich99]

I agree with the OP and the other posters on that side of the proverbial fence. I honestly don't understand the mind set of EDC carrying a full-size "combat" weapon with two or even three extra mags, a back-up firearm with two mags, two edged weapons, mace, nunchucks, telescoping police baton, plasma rifle in the 40-watt range, etc. If I really felt that I needed all of that, I honestly would move and/or get a different job. For the basic purpose of defending my life or the lives of loved ones in what would be a 'typical mugging' scenario, in my limited experience, five rounds will do, and over 10 rounds is likely unnecessary.

Heck, even when I lived in some bad areas I never felt it was necessary to carry all that stuff. When my job was located in East St. Louis (when I worked there it was the "murder capitol of the U.S."), I carried either a Para-Ordnance P13 (13-rd double-stack 1911 pattern) or a S&W model 19 (6-shot .357 mag DA revolver), most of the time without a spare mag or extra rounds for the .357. And while I felt it was necessary to draw my weapon a couple times (never had to fire, thank god), I never felt under-gunned with whatever I had in hand at that moment. And apparently bad guys have a healthy respect for either sidearm. Curiously, not one sneered, "no extra mag? No speedloader?" In fact, every one suddenly remembered a pressing engagement that they were extremely late for.

Today, meaning right now, I have a S&W shield in 9mm in my holster, with a spare mag. Definitely not a "combat" sidearm, but it's easily concealable, accurate, and 100% reliable, at least through 1,500+ rounds to date. With the 8-rd mag in it, plus the one in the chamber, I have no misgivings about my sidearm du jour.

Are there handguns in my safe that are more accurate, that I can shoot faster or carry more rounds? Naturally. And two of them are probably "combat" handguns. But it's over 110 degrees here in Phoenix, and will be for weeks to come. I don't know about anyone else, but carrying full-size handguns in a full-size holster in 110 degree heat with more than 25% humidity makes for a very sweaty combination.

So until the OAT drops down to something under 100, and the humidity drops back down to 8%, I'll be carrying either this "non-combat ready" Shield, or my equally inadequate S&W j-frame and just take my chances.

[Brit]

Well, Florida is kinda hot as well, but this Old Guy has an A/C House/Car and each store I go to, also cool. So my Glock 19 is comfy, a spare G17 mag, and bright LED flashlight sits next to that 17 round magazine.
And I have shot a couple of thousand rounds through it. Cleaned this unscratched pistol two days ago, spotless. Spent some time in Phoenix! Some of that time on a range! Hot, but I soon headed back home, first time home to Toronto, second Florida.

So my advice, same gun, same place, always. Forget the merry go round of multiple weapons, multiple calibers, in multiple holsters.

Sixteen shots, from 16 trigger presses, can't be bad.

[OldMarksman]

I agree that single action guns have some inherent limitations but its hardly a reason to be condescending.

I did not see that comment as condescending--just realistic.

Maybe the man is good with his single action gun and if so, I am sure he is plenty capable with it.

"Good" in what respects?

As far as any suggestion that single action guns are [only] for the range or for fun, I think the idea is rather naïve and amateuristic.

As would be the idea of choosing one for concealed carry if there were other choices available.

The best way to find out is to take one to a good defensive pistol shooing class and see how it goes.

[Don P]

Three targets spread at three yards apart at 10 yards distance in just over 7 seconds. Cocking the hammer helps to bring the pistol back down from recoil. I'm a little faster with a DA revolver but slower with a semi-auto. (I am not yet used to shooting the semi, I've only had it for four months.

As Oldmarksman pointed out in post 10, the average person can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. So in your time frame above, under stress, adrenaline flowing you may be lucky enough to hit one attacker but three? I seriously doubt it. Under that kind of stress the last thing you may be thinking about is cocking a hammer

[MandolinMan]

My training has emphasized being able to make fast, accurate hits. If you are capable of doing that with a single action revolver, I don't think its a bad choice at all.

That said, for most people, a single action revolver would generally be my last recommendation as a defense handgun. The SA revolver requires a tremendous amount of practice to develop any degree of proficiency with it. BUT, if you have already put in the time and are proficient with a single action, It very well may be the right choice for YOU.

Just my .02 cents