Appleseed...some thoughts

[chris in va]

I just returned from one of the shoots last weekend. I'll be flamed for saying this, but so be it.

I had several misconceptions about the Appleseed project. The site recommends certain equipment such as a 'GI' sling and a semiauto rifle with 5 extra magazines. That's fine and I understand the reasoning behind it. So considering I don't have a Garand or M14/M16, I brought my bolt action CZ and Saiga. The site says "bring what you have". :barf:

That's where the problems started.

First off, an AK platform is a BATTLE rifle, not a marksmanship firearm. They have very small swivels, and the GI sling is much too wide to fit, not to mention replacements are near impossible to find locally. So most of the first day (8 hours) was spent shooting at little tiny 1" black squares trying to sight in my Saiga using stock iron sights in the prone position. Not fun.

Second day was spent doing calisthenics...standing to prone to sitting to kneeling...again trying to hit either little squares or simulated 400 yard prone targets barely bigger than my watch dial. With the sun in our eyes, I simply couldn't see the darn targets. This went on for hours, no explanation as to why I would try shooting a 400 yard target with an AK. Just about everyone was having a hard time with this, regardless of weapon.

So following with the "bring what you have" suggestion, I tried doing an AQT with the CZ bolt as I'm a little more accurate with it. Before I knew it, someone called 'cease fire' and I hadn't even finished half the AQT.

I could go on, but here's some suggestions if you want to attend an Appleseed.

-Bring a Ruger 10/22 with aperture sights and good barrel. Little recoil, and you can actually FOCUS on the target unlike us trying to use the stock irons with the AK. Plus you won't go wasting $150 ammo on some little paper square all day. Go ahead, bring that old Garand or M14, but be prepared to use 350 rounds and have your shoulder beat all to heck with a great flinch to match.

-Be SURE you have swivels that accept the wide GI sling. This was not mentioned on the site. At one point I gave up and started shooting without a sling.

-Know that 80% of the shooting is done prone. Bring something more comfortable than a piece of carpet remnant. We had inflatable camping pads which helped.

-Have your rifle already sighted in for 25 yards!! Very important! This really needs to be added as a MUST for the class. Several of us were so far off as to not even be on paper and spent a good 4 hours tring to get it zero'ed.

-Signing up for just the second day is not a good idea as you are already expected to know how the sling works and various positions, plus one member got barked at for not knowing the safety procedures on the range and wasn't even given the briefing yet. Very unprofessional IMO.

-Know how to use and fire your weapon. Fumbling around with the various levers and mags won't help you in the quicker firing exercises.

Finally, I understand people want to 're-live' the old concept of militia marksmanship training. That's great. But it needs to be understood that many modern rifles are not meant to be slow fired at 400 yard targets 'taking out the officers' like 300 years ago! We now have high capacity magazines and a 'more rounds on target' mentality. Only the very last exercise capitalized on that, and I was very disappointed we didn't do more.

[David Armstrong]

But it needs to be understood that many modern rifles are not meant to be slow fired at 400 yard targets 'taking out the officers' like 300 years ago!

Apparently you missed the basic concept of the Appleseed Project, which is to teach shooters to learn to hit targets at 400 yards in slow fire.

Several of us were so far off as to not even be on paper and spent a good 4 hours tring to get it zero'ed.

Don't go to training without having your weapon zeroed. And if you do, one should be able to zero the weapon in far less than one hour, much less 4.

[chris in va]

learn to hit targets at 400 yards in slow fire.

Wish I had known that beforehand, wouldn't have gone considering the 'rifles' I have.

[Groundhog]

I'm going to the boot camp in Davilla in November. I'll give you guys a range report. I suspect these events could use a bit more organization though as I have heard nothing official about the camp yet. An itinerary would be a great thing to have. As well as a list of what is needed to bring. All in all though, for $200 it seems like it should be a very excellent deal. I'll be using my M14. Bringing the wife and kids too, they'll use an AR and a couple of .22's As they are free, it's just too good a deal to pass up.

[Hard Ball]

Tel us all about it when you get back.

[Denny Hansen]

I gave Stewart Rhodes, who writes our Enemy AT The Gate column, the green light to attend an Appleseed shoot and report his findings in S.W.A.T. in a coming issue.

Denny

[ARGarrison]

They had an Appleseed shoot in Walbash Indiana this past June. Was called by someone promoting the event given some details. Had thought of going, but it was Father's Day weekend. Still looked into going one day. Looked over there web site and more. Came to some concussions; top of the list,

A .22LR either bolt or semi auto with detachable magazine seams to be good for the first timer. All shots are really close and use scaled down targets.

I'd love to see a S.W.A.T. article, keep up the good work.

[natlmatch]

Do you remember I sent ya a bunch of links in this thread you started?
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=appleseed

This was one of the links:
Good write up report on what to expect:
http://www.survivalblog.com/2006/10/...appleseed.html

I don't know about anyone else but when I read "bring 300 or 400 rounds", ****, that translated to "bring your 22lr rifle and a brick" as the thought of expending high dollar ammo (especially with prices going up) is just not an option in my mind.

I'll be attending the next Texas Appleseed with a friend also and I plan to prepare by taking into account your experience, thank you for sharing it with us Chris (you just made me think twice about my shooting pad). Two things they definitely need to put on the AQT site is to prepare yourself by practicing getting into your prone, standing and sitting positions at least 3 weeks before hand for 15 mins a day, just enough to get your muscles prepared. Also, demonstrate how to attach the sling to your arm for the different postions so we're not wasting time at the range.

[Grin Reaper]

Thanks for the frank review of your Appleseed experience -- seriously.
I teach marksmanship for the Appleseed Program, and have run into some of the same problems you mention, especially with reference to AK-pattern rifles. I think the fairest way to put it is, 'they are what they are.' As you & I know, the AK is not built for precision-work; on the other hand, they are more durable than a bowling ball.

+1 to the 10/22 and brick of ammo idea. Since most of the shooting is done at 25m, this just makes good financial sense.

I'm attaching alink to the after-action review for our recent shoot in Toccoa, GA -- http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1211.0

Please pm me if I can answer any questions about the Appleseed Program, and thanks for attending!

[Ed Lawrence]

I can really see where not having a rifle with click adjustable sights where each click adjusts the sights a defined distance would be a big problem for this event. Guns like Saigas, AKs, and SKS have sights that do not offer this precise adjustment and are a bitch to adjust at all, especially since you need to use a thumbscrew like device to adjust the windage and then there is no telling exactly how far you have changed the point of impact until you fire the gun, and then must adjust again.

An AK or SKS are certainly great within their intended battlefield use, but ar not really suited for reduced distance high power type shooting.

I went to an Appleseed shoot last year and had a good time.

Appleseed draws a lot from competitive High Power Rifle shooting in that similar equipment is helpful and the positional shooting and courses of fire are somewhat similar. I brought a shooting mat which turned out to be incredibly helpful.

I shot it with an FN FS2000 (Caliber 5.56mm) equipped with an Aimpoint red dot electronic sight. According to the Appleseed people, sighting a gun in at 25 yards, as we did for the reduced sized target shooting, should have had me dead on at around 250 yards. It turned out that when we went to the 300 yard range, my gun was shooting about 18" high. That probably has to do with the fact that their figures were based on a gun with sights 1.5" above the bore, while the Aimpoint was at least 3.5" above the bore of the FS2000.

Most of the shooting was done at reduced size targets from varios shooting positions at 25 yards. This makes sense because the basics are the same and there are a lot more places where you can practice at 25 yards. Also, it takes much less time to walk to 25 yards to check your targets and thus allows you to get a lot more shooting in.

Most of the people were using M1As or M1 Garands or AR15s. I saw some people using FNs. One person was using a Daewoo in 5.56mm and having problems adjusting the open sights.

Keep in mind, although this was a year ago, I had bought the 5.56mm ammo that I used the summer before so it cost me only about $100 for the 500 rounds that I brought with me. I don't believe I shot the 500 rounds over the two days of the event.

To me one of the best things about it was getting to meet a diverse group of people. The oldest person there was in his late 70s and just missed qualifying as a rifleman with his M1 Garand.