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Old December 13, 2016, 04:04 PM   #1
Kman98
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Is my Kar98 Real or Fake (Loads of Pictures)

I bought this at a little gun store, I jumped the gun when I saw that it was for sale for $750. (Pun intended) When I asked them about the etching in the bolt they said it was like that when it was shipped to them. Here are the pictures.








This is the underside of the bolt


It means Knox Tennessee on this pic above, doesnt it.. (I just figured that out

These are the numbers on the buttplate.
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Old December 13, 2016, 04:06 PM   #2
Kman98
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This is the butt with the numbers on it,

This is the butt with the numbers on it,
This is the top of the bolt
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Old December 13, 2016, 05:23 PM   #3
ligonierbill
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The byf and 42 indicate it was made by Mauser in Oberndorf in 1942. Someone may have changed the bolt, not uncommon. Why do you care? Shoot it and have fun.
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Old December 13, 2016, 05:31 PM   #4
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Looks like a Russian capture. By "Etching" on the bolt, you mean the serial number electropenciled?

You overpaid by a couple hundred bucks.
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Old December 13, 2016, 06:45 PM   #5
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"X" on the receiver is another clue that it is a Russian capture, but it is a nice looking one. I agree that you probably over paid by at least several hundred, but I'd enjoy it, and definitely shoot it.
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Old December 13, 2016, 07:05 PM   #6
Kman98
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I just want to know if its an Authentic Mauser. I've always wanted to own a German Mauser. Not one from any of its satellite states during WW2. Also, What about the bolt why is it not bent like most Kar98s?
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Old December 13, 2016, 07:59 PM   #7
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Yes, it is an authentic Mauser, as mentioned above it was made by Mauser in Oberndorf Germany in 1942. It was captured by the Soviets after the war, and refurbished, at least once, post war and put in long term storage.

Signs of Russian capture are no numbers matching on the stock metal, the bolt force matched with the rifle serial number electropenciled, and the serial number stamped in the side of the stock. Many have the Nazi markings defaced, some don't. Many but not all also have the crossed rifles Soviet property stamp, which looks like an "X".

I missed the straight bolt, the answer is quite simply, it is the wrong bolt for the rifle. It may have been put there by the Soviets.

The Russians didn't bother to keep the parts straight, when putting them back together after refurbishing, they grabbed one of each part off a pile and slapped them together. If your bolt has the electropenciled number that matches the rifle, then it was most likely installed by them. If it is unmarked, there is no telling. Someone may have lost the original bolt, and that what they got to replace it.

If it is not electropenciled, then you should have the headspace checked.
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Old December 13, 2016, 08:02 PM   #8
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The code "byf" indicates it was made by Mauser so it is a real as it gets.

It is indeed, a Russian capture and they normally sell for around $450-550
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Old December 14, 2016, 01:41 PM   #9
Kman98
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Quote:
Yes, it is an authentic Mauser, as mentioned above it was made by Mauser in Oberndorf Germany in 1942. It was captured by the Soviets after the war, and refurbished, at least once, post war and put in long term storage.

Signs of Russian capture are no numbers matching on the stock metal, the bolt force matched with the rifle serial number electropenciled, and the serial number stamped in the side of the stock. Many have the Nazi markings defaced, some don't. Many but not all also have the crossed rifles Soviet property stamp, which looks like an "X".

I missed the straight bolt, the answer is quite simply, it is the wrong bolt for the rifle. It may have been put there by the Soviets.

The Russians didn't bother to keep the parts straight, when putting them back together after refurbishing, they grabbed one of each part off a pile and slapped them together. If your bolt has the electropenciled number that matches the rifle, then it was most likely installed by them. If it is unmarked, there is no telling. Someone may have lost the original bolt, and that what they got to replace it.

If it is not electropenciled, then you should have the headspace checked.
This is what the electropencilling looks like.


The bolt is electropenciled, you can see it right on the top of the bolt when its closed I didn't add the picture., where the bent bolt should be the numbers 1451 are etched in just barely. I would rather have a bent bolt. Though this is like finding a needle in a haystack, is there a way to find the matching bolt for it?

Last edited by Kman98; December 14, 2016 at 01:49 PM.
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Old December 14, 2016, 03:00 PM   #10
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While it is theoretically possible to find the original bolt, it is extremely unlikely. Finding a needle in a haystack would probably be a lot easier.

You would be looking for one specific needle out of ~14,600,000 needles, and the haystack would be the entire world.

Finding a correct bent bolt is a lot easier, you can try Numrich, Sarco, Springfield Sporters, Ebay, or even gun shows.

This is what one of my Russian captures looks like:



It is odd that the floorplate is marked like that, none of mine have ever been marked that way, the Russians didn't care about numbers on any other part. Since the number on your bolt doesn't match the rifle, you really should have the headspace checked before you fire it.
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Old December 14, 2016, 03:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
While it is theoretically possible to find the original bolt, it is extremely unlikely. Finding a needle in a haystack would probably be a lot easier.

You would be looking for one specific needle out of ~14,600,000 needles, and the haystack would be the entire world.

Finding a correct bent bolt is a lot easier, you can try Numrich, Sarco, Springfield Sporters, Ebay, or even gun shows.

This is what one of my Russian captures looks like:



It is odd that the floorplate is marked like that, none of mine have ever been marked that way, the Russians didn't care about numbers on any other part. Since the number on your bolt doesn't match the rifle, you really should have the headspace checked before you fire it.
I just got my ammo today, I put a round in the barrel to see if it would fit and closed the bolt. After I did I tried to turn the bolt shut . It took some elbow grease to turn it. The bolt fully closed all the way without any problems and I put the round in the barrel by hand to make sure it was the right size. Its a pretty damn old gun.
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Old December 14, 2016, 03:55 PM   #12
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Mausers need to feed from the magazine...you should not put a round in the chamber and close bolt on it.
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Old December 14, 2016, 04:02 PM   #13
Kman98
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I know this they feed from the magazine. What does emcon mean when he says I need to check the headspace?
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Old December 14, 2016, 04:19 PM   #14
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Loading a Mauser 98 that way if really hard on the extractor.

They are designed to load from the magazine, and the rim comes up under the extractor from the bottom. on edit: rather than you trying to force the extractor to bend out to clear the rim. Try it again that way.

Make sure the safety is in the middle position, that locks the firing pin back but allows the bolt to cycle.

You can do a really quick and dirty headspace check against your ammo using and some scotch tape. Cut a small layer of tape and place it on the head of the round and chamber it. Add another one and try again, and keep going until the bolt won't close.

I just did this with a rifle that will not close on a NOGO gauge, using two types of surplus ammo, Czech and Romanian, one took 2 pieces and the other took 3.

GO: 1.8743
NOGO: 1.8803
Field: 1.8843

Difference between a minimum chamber (The GO Gauge) and a Maximum chamber (the Field) is .01".

A piece of Scotch tape is a hair over .002" thick. You should confirm that yours is the same as mine, but if the ammo is minimum spec, if it takes 4 pieces or less before the bolt won't close, it is most likely within spec. On edit: This is not a replacement for proper headspace gauges, but can give you a feel for the condition of the rifle.

Please note, I am not saying if your rifle passes this test that it is safe to shoot, that is something you need to decide for your self. There is always risk, and you need to decide what your acceptable level of risk is.
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Old December 14, 2016, 04:20 PM   #15
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What does emcon mean when he says I need to check the headspace?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)

Last edited by emcon5; December 14, 2016 at 04:47 PM.
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Old December 14, 2016, 04:26 PM   #16
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You need to find a gunsmith with a set of gauges, esp. since your bolt is not original to the rifle.
Proper headspace is critical, a local gunsmith should be able to check the headspace for you. Go-No go headspace gauges are also available from companies like Brownell's.

Basically headspace is the distance between the end of the closed bolt and the barrel. Too much headspace.....Kaboom can be the result. Too little headspace? Bolt won't close on a properly loaded round. Neither is acceptable.

Have it checked prior to shooting the rifle.
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Old December 15, 2016, 11:15 PM   #17
Kman98
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Took some extra Pics

You're definitely right about the headspace. I didn't use the scotchtape. I took pictures of the bolt after it was closed with ammo and without ammo. Yes I had 4 cartridges in the magazine to see, but even if after firing one and it jammed like that it wouldnt make a difference.


This is the rifle after I chambered a round, I put no force on it, I left it like it was




Look inbetween the bolt and the action itself and you see maybe 1-2mm of space free here, This is with a round chambered.



This final picture is the bolt in the same position, closed and with no ammo in the chamber.



I do live in the Kansas City area, I'll look around tomorrow, so I there is definitely no shortage of Gun shop, gunsmiths on hand. I wont be firing it anytime soon. I haven't cleaned it at all, so that could also be a contributing factor. As suggested before. I will go and make some calls to the gunsmiths for sure. Any other information you guys can give me?

Oh I must add that the wood in front of the sights wiggles SLIGHTLY. And the bayonet lug looks just like it came off the factory almost like it was made from CAD

Here ya go






Last edited by Kman98; December 15, 2016 at 11:31 PM.
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Old December 15, 2016, 11:33 PM   #18
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You are looking at the wrong end of the bolt. The bolt handle tells you nothing.

Headspace on that rifle is measured between the bolt face and a datum point on the shoulder in the chamber, and can only be measured from the inside.
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Old December 15, 2016, 11:51 PM   #19
Kman98
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Could it be the ammo itself?

Could it be the ammo? I ordered This http://www.sportsmansguide.com/produ...unds?a=1581479

Here is a pic. I dont have a ruler to scale it with, I can use a pen,



They are line up properly, The tip of the bullet lines directly up with the I in the word BIC

The distance between the Rim and the bullet casing itself seems a bit wide.
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Old December 16, 2016, 12:36 AM   #20
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I think the best advice for you is to see a good gunsmith.
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Old December 16, 2016, 01:25 AM   #21
emcon5
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That Romanian stuff has a reputation for being a little oversize. Read the reviews on that page. Only talking about the new manufacture, the old Romanian surplus is good stuff.

On the plus side, if that stuff is hard to chamber, it is a indication your headspace probably isn't excessive.

Rereading your posts it isn't entirely clear, if you load one round in the magazine, and chamber it, does the bolt close completely? Don't drop it in the barrel and close the bolt, load it from the magazine.

This goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, make sure the safety is on, and be careful loading a rifle in the house.
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Old December 16, 2016, 01:43 AM   #22
Kman98
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Quote:
That Romanian stuff has a reputation for being a little oversize. Read the reviews on that page. Only talking about the new manufacture, the old Romanian surplus is good stuff.

On the plus side, if that stuff is hard to chamber, it is a indication your headspace probably isn't excessive.

Rereading your posts it isn't entirely clear, if you load one round in the magazine, and chamber it, does the bolt close completely? Don't drop it in the barrel and close the bolt, load it from the magazine.

This goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, make sure the safety is on, and be careful loading a rifle in the house.
Yes it closes completely, I just cant turn the bolt all the way to 0 degrees, it gets stuck at 45 degrees.

Its not like a gunsmith will charge me if he tests it himself with the ammo I got and a regular 7.92x57mm. You know of a website that you trust to sell reliable ammo?

Btw I will go to a gunsmith.
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Old December 16, 2016, 10:36 AM   #23
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Yes it closes completely, I just cant turn the bolt all the way to 0 degrees, it gets stuck at 45 degrees.
Then it doesn't close completely. The bolt is still moving forward slightly (like hundredths of an inch) as the lugs engage inside the action when you rotate it.

A gunsmith will not use a live round, he will use a set of headspace gauges, like thise: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/56...ser-8mm-mauser

There are three types, shamelessly stealing the description from the Forster product notes:

Quote:
Headspace gauges are available in three different lengths, listed below, from shortest to longest:

Go Gauge: Go Gauges match the minimum chamber dimensions allowable under SAAMI specifications. In order to accept SAAMI maximum ammunition, the rifle must be able to chamber the correct go gauge.

No-Go Gauge: No-Go Gauges are sized to the maximum recommended headspace dimensions. If a rifle will chamber the no-go gauge, it may still be within specifications, or this could indicate excessive headspace. To determine if the rifle is safe to shoot, the chamber must be checked with the field gauge.

Field Gauge: Field Gauges correspond to the maximum safe headspace dimension. If a rifle will chamber a field gauge, it should be inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith prior to use.
And a gunsmith probably will charge you to inspect the rifle.

Quote:
You know of a website that you trust to sell reliable ammo?
It is not the web site as much as the ammo. That Romanian stuff is problematic for some rifles, it is sold a few different ways, It is sold as "Hot Shot" (Hot Shot is a Century brand I believe), it is also available from Midway as "PW Arms" and from the arseholes at Sportsmans Guide unbranded. All three have the same specs, and appear to be coming from the same factory in Romania.

Privi Partisan is decent ammo, but under-powered like most 8mm Mauser ammo available in the USA, and reasonably inexpensive. It is also brass cased and reloadable. As for where to buy, I have always liked SGAmmo.
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Old December 16, 2016, 01:14 PM   #24
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Gunsmith

You need a gunsmith, period. Yes, they can and will charge you to inspect your rifle. Just might be the best money you have ever spent.

You are wasting your time trying to "figure it out" without the proper tools and knowledge.

Do not load and fire this rifle until you have the headspace checked by an individual who....
1. Has the proper tools.
2. Knows how to use them.

Please for your own sake, and perhaps that of innocent bystanders have the rifle inspected.
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Old December 16, 2016, 05:28 PM   #25
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As you already have a lot of money in it, go find the right bolt before you mess with the headspace. What you got is probably from an interwar VZ 24. You want the bent bolt for a 98k. Take the bolt to the next gun show, and you can probably trade it for the correct one, offer $20 for the inconvenience.
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