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Old December 1, 2016, 10:31 PM   #1
nightwolf1974
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another AOW or SBS question

So, am I correct that if you buy a Mossberg 500 Cruiser model , (that came from the factory with a pistol grip and NEVER had a stock on it)and cut it down (after the tax stamp arrives) or bought the parts from Mossberg to do the 14" conversion...that gun can be REGISTERED as a AOW?
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Old December 1, 2016, 10:41 PM   #2
Bill DeShivs
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Correct.
It can also have the barrel cut to where the overall length is 26" without being registered as an AOW or NFA weapon.
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Old December 1, 2016, 10:51 PM   #3
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"Correct.
It can also have the barrel cut to where the overall length is 26" without being registered as an AOW or NFA weapon. "

Yes, I know that. I'm considering a AOW as my entry into the NFA realm, and thought I'd start simple.

I have a lot of people trying to discourage me from going there due to hyped-up fears and misinformation about these things.
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Old December 1, 2016, 11:00 PM   #4
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Thanks Bill.....
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Old December 1, 2016, 11:14 PM   #5
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Why would you build it as an AOW and not an SBS? They both cost the same to register on a Form 1 and with an SBS you always have the option to add a stock if you want to.
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Old December 2, 2016, 01:09 AM   #6
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I thought AOW was a $5 tax, while SBS is the normal $200?
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Old December 2, 2016, 01:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9x19
I thought AOW was a $5 tax, while SBS is the normal $200?
Yes, if you're using a Form 4 to transfer one that's already made. But the tax for making a AOW using a Form 1 is $200, same as an SBS.

Since registering a shotgun as an SBS allows you to have a short barrel but also gives you the added bonus of being able to attach a stock if you want to, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the OP to build his Mossberg as an AOW unless he wants to be able to take it out of state without filing a Form 5320.20, or if SBSs are illegal his state but AOWs aren't (like in my state).
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Old December 2, 2016, 08:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Yes, if you're using a Form 4 to transfer one that's already made. But the tax for making a AOW using a Form 1 is $200, same as an SBS.
Thanks.
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Old December 3, 2016, 02:25 AM   #9
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What I meant was you can cut the barrel BELOW 18" as long as the OAL is 26" or more, WITHOUT getting into NFA territory.
On my 20 ga Cruiser, that would be about 16".

Getting an NFA item is a big deal-until you get one. Then it's just another gun.
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Old December 4, 2016, 12:06 AM   #10
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To Bill's point, there are Mossberg Cruisers with extra-long birdshead grips and 14" barrels that are non-NFA due to their overall length. So there's a possibility you could save yourself the tax stamp and registration on that one by building a legal "firearm" that has the same barrel length you want.

Also worth considering to make it an SBS if possible for the addition of a stock, as noted.
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Old December 4, 2016, 06:13 PM   #11
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Also check your State Legal code.
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Old December 4, 2016, 11:01 PM   #12
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here in Nh, you can have whatever the ATF says an individual can have, with the tax stamp(s). just like NH has NO blade restrictions at all since 2010, we can carry long fixed bladed knives, daggers, dirks, have switchblades & butterfly knives, wear our swords..ect.

I'm glad y'all cleared up for me about doing a Form 1 would still cost $200 on either a AOW or a SBS, I was unsure about that. like I said, there are some trying to convince me it's foolish and a waste of time.

just going to do them all as SBSs.
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Old December 5, 2016, 02:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightwolf1974
like I said, there are some trying to convince me it's foolish and a waste of time.
I'm curious as to what their arguments are. Why are they claiming it's foolish? What makes them think it's a waste of time?
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Old December 6, 2016, 10:52 PM   #14
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the arguments range from being put on a "special watch-list" to "why waste money on that when you can't even carry loaded in a vehicle like you can a AR or AK pistol"

total ignorance if you ask me............
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Old December 6, 2016, 11:28 PM   #15
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They didn't give me a special watch when I did my SBS!
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Old January 19, 2017, 10:22 AM   #16
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I knew this thread is a month or two old.

But for those who may find it in the future, or for those participating now.

This is what is being discussed and all the controversy is about.

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

Read the info there. Also read all the linked info and references. Then draw your own conclusions.

Mine is no way, no how, no sir. It's a trip to jail waiting to happen. Is it really worth the hassle to dabble in such a "grey" area of the law. And God forbid you purchased a base shotgun with a pistol grip that the owner swore up and down was factory original. Only to find out at a later date - like after your arrest - that it originally left the factory with a full length butt stock.

Rob
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Old January 19, 2017, 11:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob62
Mine is no way, no how, no sir. It's a trip to jail waiting to happen. Is it really worth the hassle to dabble in such a "grey" area of the law.
It's not a grey area of the law. It's very clearly legal. Both federal law and the ATF are very clear on this: A shotgun like the OP describes is not a shotgun per federal law, since the federal definition of a shotgun includes a stock. And since it's not a shotgun and is actually very clearly an "other" firearm per federal law, there is an overall length requirement of 26" but no minimum barrel length restriction.

The issue you might have is if you run into police officers who don't understand this and erroneously think you're breaking the law. But that's not because you're dealing with a legal grey area, it's because most cops probably don't know the details of federal firearms law.
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Old January 19, 2017, 12:02 PM   #18
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My point and contention is why bother with the potential legal hassle for 4" of barrel length ?!?

Anyone that wants to go with this type of a firearm go ahead and do so. Just don't be shocked and outraged when some cop arrests you. Will you win the court battle....probably. Will the case be dropped or never picked up by a prosecuting attorney - hopefully. But why take the chance is all I am saying.....
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Old January 20, 2017, 12:47 AM   #19
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It is clearly not a "shotgun" or a rile or pistol because it is a smooth bore. Doesn't that place it in the "Any other firearm" category?
It is a firearm and the definition of a pistol fits, with the exception of a rifled barrel. It is also shooting a larger projectile than .50 caliber... "a destructive device"?
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Old January 20, 2017, 01:12 AM   #20
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Guns like this are simply classified as a "firearm."
There is no "any other firearm." It's "Any Other Weapon," but these guns are not classified as such.
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Old January 20, 2017, 01:21 AM   #21
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Houston, we have a situation...

If the manufacturer of the pistol grip only gun a "shotgun" does that leave a loophole for the ATFE to call it a short barreled shotgun?

This smells of an ATF misinformation ploy. The letters imply that it is not a shotgun and that the rules don't apply to it because it was never a shoulder fired gun but the manufacturer calls it a shotgun. They never come out and say what you are doing is legal. I'm not sure that you have a valid defense since you knew when you ordered it that it was a shotgun. I know that if I make a shotgun from scratch without a shoulder stock and keep the overall length 26 inches it is considered a shotgun whether it has a shoulder stock or not. My home made gun is legally a shotgun but my advantage is that I made it from scratch and in order to be at least 26 inches long the barrel has to be more than 18 inches. I am unsure what would happen if I made the action longer to be able to remove some of the barrel.
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Old January 20, 2017, 02:36 AM   #22
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You can argue all day what it isn't. I'm telling you what it IS as per the ATF.

Your home made pistol gripped shotgun would be classified as a FIREARM, not a shotgun.
The OAL of a FIREARM must be 26 inches or more. The barrel can be less than 18 inches.
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Old January 20, 2017, 04:49 AM   #23
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Bill, I don't doubt your belief but the letters in the link from the ATF did not say it was legal. They skirted around doing so while defining what other arms were. I don't trust the ATF at all. Now if they came out and said that your concept was legal then I would be more willing to believe it. Having a letter from the ATF saying your gun was legal would be an adequate defense in court. I don't see anything wrong with the concept although I don't know of a use for such a gun, for me, personally.
wish you all the luck and profits you can use in your enterprise.
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Old January 20, 2017, 01:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
It is clearly not a "shotgun" or a rile or pistol because it is a smooth bore. Doesn't that place it in the "Any other firearm" category?
You're thinking "Any Other Weapon". In this case, it wouldn't be an AOW since the overall length is over 26" and it's not being concealed on someone's person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
It is a firearm and the definition of a pistol fits, with the exception of a rifled barrel.
So that makes it not a pistol. That's why it's a non-NFA "other": it's a smooth-bore firearm with an overall length over 26".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
It is also shooting a larger projectile than .50 caliber... "a destructive device"?
Traditional shotgun shells are exempted from the federal definition of "destructive device". This firearm isn't legally a shotgun, but it fires shotgun shells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
If the manufacturer of the pistol grip only gun a "shotgun" does that leave a loophole for the ATFE to call it a short barreled shotgun?
[...]
but the manufacturer calls it a shotgun. They never come out and say what you are doing is legal. I'm not sure that you have a valid defense since you knew when you ordered it that it was a shotgun.
[...]
I know that if I make a shotgun from scratch without a shoulder stock and keep the overall length 26 inches it is considered a shotgun whether it has a shoulder stock or not.
No. Per federal law, it's not a shotgun if it has never had a stock installed on it. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer calls it and it doesn't matter what you call it. What matters is the stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
Bill, I don't doubt your belief but the letters in the link from the ATF did not say it was legal.
Actually they did. They made it very clear what category this firearm does and does not fall into. But the ATF doesn't make the law. In this case, the ATF letters are simply stating what is already written in federal law: This firearm doesn't fall into the category of a pistol; this firearm doesn't fall into the category of a shotgun; this firearm doesn't fall into the category of a destructive device; this firearm doesn't fall into the category of a short-barrel shotgun; this firearm doesn't fall into the category of an AOW; the only category this firearm falls into is a non-NFA "other firearm". Keep it over 26" in OAL, keep a stock off it, and don't try to carry it concealed, and it will stay as an other firearm.
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