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Old November 28, 2004, 06:52 PM   #1
keko
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Tokarev vs. Makarov

Ok, I have read tons on the Russian via Bulgaria Makarov's.

Today I was at the range and saw a Tokarev. It was Russian made, very accurate. The guy who owned it let me hold it. Nice balance. He said it was a pain to field strip...you had to push the recoil spring in, put pins in and secure the pins with a split ring ("c" clip)...crappy design.

Anyway...how do the Makarov's compare to the Tokarev's...pros and cons...from field stripping, cleaning, accuracy, parts availability, etc.?

One other thing, my new friend at the range said that the East German pitols had the best fit and finish...but the ugly finish Russian guns were very accurate.

Thanks, Keko
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Old November 28, 2004, 06:57 PM   #2
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Both can be accurate pistols and both have plenty of parts though the Mak has the edge in that area. The Mak does not fire a very powerful cartridge, but it's adequate for self defense. The Tok cartridge can be pretty powerful depending on the load and with hollowpoint ammunition has about the capability of the .357 mag in regards to close range deer hunting although people are going to chime in about it's overpenetration when used as a defensive/carry gun.
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Old November 28, 2004, 07:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Today I was at the range and saw a Tokarev. It was Russian made, very accurate. The guy who owned it let me hold it. Nice balance. He said it was a pain to field strip...you had to push the recoil spring in, put pins in and secure the pins with a split ring ("c" clip)...crappy design.
Methinks you answered your own question!!

Pistolet Makarova is simple to field strip, operate, and contrary to what some say, chambers a more than adequate round!!

The CZ-52 is a much better design!!!
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Old November 28, 2004, 07:03 PM   #4
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Don't get Chinese!

I once bought one of those Toks in 9MM from China. Was kinda neat to play with but that wore off. Apparently had sight reg'd for the original cal, and so the poi for 9MM ammo was no where near where I aimed. Not too accurate.
Stupid hard to use import law safety lever. Blueing was thin and quick job. Looked bad and l parkerised the gun and sold it with that finish to someone. They apparently thought it was a rare variation or something. Looked better too. I have seen the Polish Toks are more like the Russians and are supposed to be good. In any case it would be a plinker or a historical curiosity for most purposes. The CZ 52 is probably a better gun in that caliber by a longshot.
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Old November 28, 2004, 07:29 PM   #5
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I haven't messed with the Toks much but here's what I know about the Maks.

They are extremely reliable even with poor quality ammunition.

The sights are tiny. If you can see the sights, the gun is very accurate.

Maks can be field stripped in a jiffy with no tools. They can be taken down into tiny parts in about 10 minutes with no tools other than a screwdriver to remove the grip.

The stock grips are uncomfortable but you can get a Pearce grip for $10 that makes a world of difference.

9x18 is loaded by U.S. makers to .380 specs but at full power is roughly halfway between .380 and 9mm. 9x18 is typically pretty cheap if you shoot the steel case stuff--and you should at the range since that's what the guns were made for. You can get some better stuff to carry, if you like.

You can put a .380 barrel on a Mak for about $100. $50 for the barrel and $50 for a barrel press.

Magazines are readily available and cost about $5 apiece. I've bought quite a few for less than that.
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Old November 28, 2004, 11:00 PM   #6
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I own and like both of these pistols, but i consider them historical guns in my collection. My favorite os probably the Tok, simply because I like the primitive genius of it's design. Toks are generally ruined with the stupid safety stuck on it for importation. They are a real hoot to shoot.

Both guns, however, are ingeniously simple. If the Mak was made today with good sights and a little nicer grip, it would be a hot seller. It makes a great CCW gun.
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Old December 16, 2004, 08:51 PM   #7
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That whole pesky safty isue can be solved by taking the stupid thing of oops did i say that outloud.
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Old December 16, 2004, 09:03 PM   #8
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Maks were not designed for target shooting or IDPA tournaments. It was designed as a service pistol for short and medium ranges. It is basically a "grab the darn thing and shoot" gun. Perfect for our modern environment.

Should you desire superior targeting performance, some really big prescription glasses with a lot of magnifying power or Novak's should help.
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Old December 16, 2004, 09:09 PM   #9
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Cz52

I posted this in a different thread, but maybe someone here can give me some good help:

I was looking at the CZ52's at www.aimsurplus.com and was wondering if anyone has bought from them and if the guns are in as good of a condition as the website says they are? If they are, and they as good as everyone says they are, then $89.95 for the gun, two mags and a holster is an awesome deal!

Any feedback would be much appreciated, since this might be a nice little Christmas gift to myself.
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Old December 16, 2004, 09:14 PM   #10
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I believe CDNN has unissued CZ52s for $100.00. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please.
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Old December 16, 2004, 09:17 PM   #11
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That sounds like a good deal, i know a little more about the type 54-1 the the CZ's are still good guns and that price is good as well.
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Old December 16, 2004, 10:21 PM   #12
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I have a couple of the CZ pistols and think they're great shooters, but they fall even more squarely into the collector niche than either the Mak or the Tok IMO.

If you're looking for a good general purpose gun, you'd be better served by the Mak or the Tok, I think.

My vote out of the three goes to the Mak.
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Old December 16, 2004, 10:22 PM   #13
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Yep, you can take that pesky safety off, but then you have a pesky hole through your frame. You can fill that hole, but then you have to refinish the gun. You can refinish the gun, but then you wonder why they put a stupid safety that doesn't work anyway on a gun to make it "safe" to be imported.
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Old December 17, 2004, 01:41 AM   #14
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I'm a big fan of the Tokarev and have a Chinese version. Like others have said above, the safety is the pits (mine goes opposite of anything else I've ever used) but it's accurate and the bottle neck cartridge never jams. I carry some 100g Hornady JHPs that I bought off of gunbroker and they work well. The gun is extremely loud, though, and some people develop a flinch when they shoot mine after a couple rounds.
The takedown is a piece of cake to me. If you can take a 1911 down, you'll have no problem with a Tok.
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Old December 17, 2004, 08:24 AM   #15
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A couple, non-scientific replies:
I own a Tok (Polish), a couple Maks (Russian commercial, Bulgarian, and an East German), as wells as a couple CZ52s.
I have had reliability issues with the Maks (all three), but they are very accurate and well made handguns. As an example, I have fired groups at 10 yards that could be covered with a quarter (the contents of the magazine).
I am currently using my Tok as my handgun for a couple shooting sports that I participate in: Vintage Military Bolt Action Rifle, and Vintage Military Semi-Auto Rifle. During these matches they usually have a small handgun stage and the Tok has worked out well for me. However, after the last two matches I did a little playing around my Tok and realized that the accruacy of this thing is horrible. In both cases, I was taking a few shots at a distant rifle target (in excess of 100 yards) and had shots scattering all over the place. In my own defense, I am a decent pistol shot. I often shoot at distant targets with handguns and have for 25 years. With this Tok, I have fired a good solid shot at approx. 150 yards and saw the bullet kick up dust over 10 yards away from my point of aim. I realize this is a very informal method of testing handgun accuracy, but it is my observation.
The CZ52s are somethiing that I haven't spent a lot of time shooting even though I have probably owned them for something like three years. That is on the agenda for the future.
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Old December 17, 2004, 04:51 PM   #16
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jehzsa

What is CDNN?
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Old December 17, 2004, 06:07 PM   #17
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http://www.cdnninvestments.com/
Click on " Download Newest Catalog"
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Old December 17, 2004, 08:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
I believe CDNN has unissued CZ52s for $100.00. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please.
I doubt it, probably refurbs. The last truly "unissued" CZ-52's I've seen were at AIM surplus back in February and they all flew out the door within a matter of few days. I was lucky to get a couple on the last day they had them.
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Old January 10, 2017, 08:04 PM   #19
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If someone ever comes out with a conversion kit for the Makarov so it could shoot Tokarev ammo, they would make a fortune.
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Old January 10, 2017, 08:15 PM   #20
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Or maybe they could invent a firewall to end 13 year old zombie threads!


The blowback system of the Makarov pistol would never handle the pressure of the 7.62x25 Tokarev round. It wouldn't take too many rounds before you had a Mak slide sticking out of your forehead!
The seller's fortune would be quickly taken away in liability suits!
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Old January 10, 2017, 08:42 PM   #21
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Cheapshooter, Do not install that firewall until I get some of those $89 and $100 pistols that are being discussed.
Oh well 2004 was a good year.
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Old January 10, 2017, 08:46 PM   #22
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I personally like the tokarev better, mainly due to the cartridge and 1911 resemblanve
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Old January 10, 2017, 10:04 PM   #23
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Cheapshooter, Do not install that firewall until I get some of those $89 and $100 pistols that are being discussed.
Oh well 2004 was a good year.
LOL
Yeah, I bought a CZ 52 a couple years later, and knowingly over paid. $175. But at the time while others were selling them fifty bucks or more less, I knew this one was like new, maybe never fired, so I didn't mind.
I think my East German Mack was under two hundred, and my Polish, Romanina, and Yugo M57 Tokarevs were just ove a hundred.
Oh, the good old days!!!
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Old January 11, 2017, 04:02 AM   #24
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I actually typed out a decent comparison of the Tokarev and Makarov until I realized this thread was more than a decade old.

Quote:
Yeah, I bought a CZ 52 a couple years later, and knowingly over paid. $175. But at the time while others were selling them fifty bucks or more less, I knew this one was like new, maybe never fired, so I didn't mind.
Same here. I paid around $150-175 for my CZ52 back in the day. There were $100 CZ52's available, but I wanted one in the best condition. I think I might have even paid a hand select fee.

I wish I had bought more ammo, though. I think it was my second firearm, the first being a 10/22. I was used to rimfire ammo prices, so I didn't realize 7.62x25 was so horrifyingly cheap at the time. I think it was a nickel a round or something absurd like that. Maybe less? That seemed about right for pistol ammo, I thought. I figured I'd never shoot 1000 rounds at a time, so I'd save a lot of money by only buying a box or two at a time instead.

Quote:
I think my East German Mack was under two hundred, and my Polish, Romanina, and Yugo M57 Tokarevs were just ove a hundred.
You'd be surprised. Deals on Makarovs can still be had since 9x18 is obscure and unpopular. I picked up a Russian commercial Mak last year for $175, and that's from a real gun shop! In the last couple years, I've seen $250-300 East German and Russian commercial Maks at gun shows.

Right now, we are bottoming out on a wave of recent Bulgarian imports. Sportman's Guide has them for $200. There's also all kinds of Tokarevs out there, but I haven't been keeping up on them.

Quote:
If someone ever comes out with a conversion kit for the Makarov so it could shoot Tokarev ammo, they would make a fortune.
Nope.

First, such a conversion is basically impossible. 7.62x25 is not even close to fitting in the gun. It looks like my CZ52 magazine might actually be longer than the Makarov's frame. So it would require a new frame entirely.

Also, 7.62x25 is a spicy cartridge and it wouldn't work in a blowback pistol with such a light slide and springs. And it doesn't fit. So there's a new slide. And a new barrel.

So with a new frame, slide, and barrel, you now have a new Makarov-like pistol that accepts some Makarov trigger parts, some of which will need to be stretched to function in the new longer frame.

Finally, cheap 7.62x25 dried up more than a decade ago (much like this thread). These days, it costs maybe $.31-.36 a round. That's twice as much as 9x19, or about as much as 10mm. That's not terribly compelling.

Last edited by kozak6; January 11, 2017 at 04:48 AM.
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Old January 11, 2017, 09:46 AM   #25
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I have an East German Makarov and Romanian Tokarev. I like the Mak better, but it is a later design (Just after WWII, with the Tokarev being a just after WWI design).

The Mak is a blowback pistol loosely based on the Walther PP. The barrel is fixed to the frame. It has a slide mounted safety with a decocker. The trigger is DA/SA (double action on first shot, single action on all following shots) Recoil of 9x19 Mak is fairly negligible with the weight and size of the gun. Mine has a nice trigger in SA mode and it's pretty accurate.

The Tokarev is loosely based on the 1911 with the same tilting barrel lockup. Takedown is almost identical to the 1911. The guns didn't originally have a safety, but one was added on importation. It simply blocks the trigger. The gun is very thin and feels good in the hand despite the fact that it has a nearly 90 pistol grip instead of an angled grip we see in modern guns. The gun is simple, reliable and well made. The 7.62x25 round is very light (about the same bullet weight as .380) and very fast which means it has flat ballistics and you can have fun trying to make long range shots with little bullet drop.

As a cool C&R guns, they are interesting fun to shoot. As defensive arms there are much better choices in the size and weight of these guns. The sights are crude and the ammo is not the easiest to find. They are very old designs that basically dead ended with these two examples. I highly recommend getting one of each.



Romanian TTC Tokarev pistol


East German Makarov (at top right) along with Walther PP, CZ70 and S&W J-frame handguns

Last edited by DMK; January 11, 2017 at 09:53 AM.
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