Help me on this shotgun decision, please

[FirstFreedom]

I don't know much about shotguns, but I'm still looking to get a good light-recoiling shotgun strictly for upland bird hunting, up to and including pheasants. I have pretty well settled on 20 gauge (I wanted a 28 gauge, but alas, I don't want to buy reloading equipment for shotshells, nor pay for 28 ga shells). I have narrowed my choices to either a double rifle (either an O/U or a SxS, but preferably a SxS, just to be different), OR a semi-auto such as a Rem 1187 or Beretta AL3901. I had pretty well decided that, when taking cost into account, and capacity (3 shots from a semi-auto are better than 2 from a double), that I would run with a semi-auto. I do want 3" capability so that it can double as a turkey gun (so that when I take a friend turkey hunting, I can give them my 12 ga and I'll use the 20 ga). So I was gonna check pawn shops and gun shows for a cheap used Rem 1187, or maybe save up for an Ambassador Beretta 3901.

But....now ol boy locally has a CZ (Huglu) Ringneck 20 ga, 28", the frontrunner among all my choices for double guns, given the value of these guns. It's pristine, and he's asking $550. By talking with him, I should think that I could get him down to $450 or $475 even. These are over $800 new, and this one is like new, as I said. He says 2 boxes (50 rounds) through it, and couldn't hit anything because it didn't fit him. So now I'm tempted, and thus need to compare pros and cons, and would like additional input as to whether to jump on the ringneck:

1. Semi-auto pros: softer recoil, 3 shots instead of two
2. Semi-auto cons: not as pretty/stylish, single choke selection, longer OAL - means worse handling characteristics???
3. Double gun pros: pretty/stylish/more traditional, handle/swing better???, can put different chokes on each tube (ringneck comes with 5 chokes, e.g. can put IC or CB on left, and modified or full on right, for if the birdie is missed by first shot, can use a tighter choke for second).
4. Double gun cons: 2 shots instead of 3, more recoil. Con of SxS in particular is a wider sighting plane vs. an O/U or semi/pump (how big of a drawback is this???)

What to do? Am I missing anything?

Here's info about the ringneck:

http://www.czusa.com/product_detail.php?id=62
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/8454/
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976564378.htm

[sm]

I am a huge believer in Gun Fit.

Is there anyway you can visit a skeet club and actually handle and shoot a variety of shotguns?

In just shouldering a shotgun, be it in a gun shop , or a friends gun at home, the body will scrunch around the gun and one "thinks" the gun fits.

In shooting clays, or game, the human body does not have time to "scrunch" around to the gun and all sorts of problems are revealed.

So by actually being able to shoot a variety, and especially with someone that understands gun fit to shooter,correct basics of mounting gun to face, etc., you can better find what fits you.

-Shotguns are pointed, so if the gun does not fit, it will not shoot where pointed.
-20 ga guns can and do actually have more recoil in some designs, simply because the weight of the gun is less and the payload ratio to that weight produces more felt recoil.

See "Rule of 96". Which is simply :

One ounce of payload per pound of gun weight.

96 ozs / 16 oz to a lb = 6.

Six pound gun shooting a 1 oz load.

Take that same 1 oz load and shoot from a 7 lb, or 7.5 lb gun and less felt recoil. 12 gauge guns , repeating actions typically fall into to 7 - 7.5 lbs.
Target guns, such as used for skeet, trap etc, and these folks shoot 100 rds in a competition, typically shoot guns that weight 8 lbs or more to lessen felt recoil even more.

7/8 oz loads from a 20 ga gun built on a 20 ga frame - as opposed to being a 12 ga frame, can be "snappy" on recoil, most often noticed on two barrel guns, pumps affect the recoil curve different, and gas operated semis change the recoil curve even more so to "lessen felt recoil"

7/8 oz loads from a 7, 7.5 lb 12 ga frame are "soft". 12 gauge is more versatile, ammo offerings are greater, and better varieties of offered from gun shops, ranges, big box stores to even bait shops and fillin' stations.


Before you buy, do yourself two favors please.

1. Order a copy of Shotgunning: The Art And Science - Bob Brister
Being an older publication chocked full of information most often asked on Forums. Information for not only new folks to shotguns, the seasoned shooter continues to read this.
try www.abebooks.com.

2. Visit a range, arrange to get private introduction to shotguns from a seasoned shooter that can share, and knows the correct basic fundamentals, such as gun fit. One that can take into account any - if you have - physically limitations, arthritis, old injury, old surgery...etc.

By doing so you will be introduced to a variety of shotguns, to see what fits you by actually shooting them.

Now educated - you can find that gun, often times used, because someone did NOT get a gun that fit them, and is playing the "buy until I find one that fits" game.

Have the person(s) that assisted in teaching and sharing assist with making sure the gun checks out, no home smithing, no alternations . Assist in anything to make the gun fit better for you. Assist in patterning that gun to the loads it likes - it may not like the same loads another exact gun does.

Err...I care about folks getting started out right on shooting, shotguns, handguns or rifles. So if that makes me a fuddy -duddy - so be it.

Order the book, heck see if someone will loan a copy to you while your is being shipped, check a library...that book will assist a whole lot on getting started, including what gun to get for you.

I wish you all the best.

Yes we want a report and pics of your new gun / new to you used gun when you get it. A nice touch is Brister's book in the photo.




Steve

[Clayfish]

I just bought a Browning Gold superlight field hunter in 20ga and man is it awesome! i would suggest it over any remington and the price is not much more. I've got a 12ga o/u and decided to get a 20ga because the 12 was just too much for planted quail that don't get up as fast as wild ones. I got it for $700 new but I saw some used for as little as $500.

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...11&type_id=263

[FirstFreedom]

Man, that's great advice, Steve - thanks a million! I need to do more research. Or, at a bare minimum, shoot the Ringneck at some thrown clays before purchasing to see if I can hit with it naturally (good fit) - the good news is he said I can do this before buying - we are both members of the same gun club. But the bottom line is, if I make consistent hits with this gun, AND I like it (recoil/feel-wise), AND it's a good deal, then that's all the research I need to do - end of inquiry. The proof will be in the pudding of the broken clays on the ground and smile on my face.

yeah, fish, I like the Browning Gold superlite idea a lot - it was on my short list - but very expensive.

But aside from proper fit, which is most of the battle (other than practice), what about comparing strictly the pros and cons of the two action types, as outlined above?

[sm]

FirstFreedom,

I was not sure of your experiences , so forgive me if offended you in anyway. Part of that post was also written for anyone doing a search for the same question, with less experience than you. I do stuff like that.

Ringneck:

I have no personal experience with that particular gun. I forget whom on TFL and THR actually have this gun, so a search on both forums may be a good idea to read up, and PM individuals and their more long time use of the gun.

I like the gun, good looking Gun!

I do know about the action type, so here goes.

Side by Sides [SxS] are great for "driven birds" as they say because of the "OO" sighting plane.

Single sighting planes are used most often on Clay games. This is to lessen the abilty for the non-denominant eye to "want to take over" and cause a miss, especially if one takes into account a round of skeet. trap is a "box" [25 rds] in sucession. Four boxes are shot in a tournament [100 rds], so the all the things one must do , at the same time, to hit are that important. Drop one bird , and that 99/100 is not good enough to get in a shoot-off perhaps.

Five Stand and Sporting Clays have more targets presented sometimes in a "round", meaning instead of a box , maybe 35 - 60 - even more on some SC courses in a round.

My attitude and thoughts. If a person is acually going to compete at Skeet , use a single sighting plane, these are the most popular sighting planes as I mentioned for such competitions. The O/U with its "8" [on barrel atop the other] is chosen for two reasons.

1. Reliable. Not dependent on ammo to run the action.
2. Tube sets. In Skeet shooters shoot all Four gauges. Being consistent in everything is important. Shooting is 90% Mental. Physical is only 10% and this includes the gun, and that gun fit. Once the Physical /10% is found out for a particular shooter, leave it alone!
Don't mess with it! One does NOT want any of the 90% Mental game to be bled off into the 10% Physical area.

So if one is shooting the exact same gun, same exact gun fit, everything is the same - except changing the tubes to shoot 20ga, 28ga, and .410.

This is why the 1100 semi and 870 pump are so popular still. In the old days, before tube sets folks shot 4 guns alike in all 4 gauges.

Barrel sets, were not affordable to many. I used a Citori 3 barrel set built on a 20 ga frame and had a 28ga and .410 barrel as well.

At that time I used a Super X Model 1 for 12 ga [gas semi auto 12 ga] events, then transitioned to the Citori O/U. This is what folks did, some used 1100s, or Beretta 303s in 12 bore, and various other O/U barreled sets.

Caveat - changing that "feel" of gun in transitioning. Some could not shoot by transitioning. So many went to shooting 20 ga in the 12 ga event in skeet which one can do.
They would go hunt ducks for instance with their 12 bore and could not hit the broad side of barn standing in it.

Repetition becomes habit - habit becomes faith. Meaning the whole idea on gun fit to shooter is for the gun to become an extension of the shooter.
Applies to not only shotguns as well.

Fred Misseldine for instance used Four Pump Guns in 1300, Champion shooter and you need his book(s) and I recommend the Skeet version for applying to hunting - I'll list these later and why.


My take again: If you are using Skeet to improve hunting skills, and fun factor with a great group of folks, Use the SxS


Fun sides events for pump guns only, pump gun only for doubles and even SXS only events are a LOT of challenging fun! Crazy Quail for instance is a fun game, this is a great way to replicate flushing quail [duh, hence the name].

Skeet field to ME is a very very valuable training "arena". For instance - Low 8 - Tueller Drill. The reality is "double barrel shotguns" are historically proven in being a defensive tool. Cowboy shooters using "them coach guns" are great shooters, and should remind us all "it is always the shooter - not the shooting iron".

I seen too many shooters, including myself, shoot 200 straight at skeet using " them short barrel coach guns".

Seen and I have as well, used one with slugs to take two hits on a target - blinding fast. Same reason for Dangerous Game the two barrel gun is used .

Double guns are reliable, proven and work.

Ringneck ? Yes from what I gather about using a club to learn, train, have fun , both at the club and afield - Buy it.

There is nothing wrong in competition, just there is more to a score on a scorecard IMO. Knowing one's own skill level in reality whether a flushing bird or some thug coming down the hall in your house firing shots is more important to me.

In life, one does get to yell "pull" to signal a bird flush or thug. There is , to me, a real place in not being a "programmed shooter".


--
Score Better At Skeet
Score Better At Trap - Fred Misseldine.

He too covers much of Brister's works. Missedine not only shows you how to hit the stations - he also shares why you miss a station.

These sharings not only work on the clay range, also afield and in a serious situation.

I want to address one other area next. Part of this and next post is again for new shooters ...as I tend to want to pass forward as passed to me.

Steve

[jhgreasemonkey]

You can get a good quality but not pretty sxs baikal for pretty cheap. Also I see the mossberg silver reserve o/u on sale for less than $500 regularly at big 5. It looks pretty nice but I havent used one. I have a Baikal o/u and it does fine.

[FirstFreedom]

wow, steve, thanks again - it will take me awhile to digest that, but that's a wealth of good info there. Yeah, I understand about posting for posterity & least common denominator - but that's ok, it helps me too - I'm not too well versed in shotguns. I've got my duck/goose/turkey gun covered, and my home defense (& 3-gun) shottie also - both 12 ga, but I was looking to get something a bit more refined/elegant/pricey, in 20 or 28 ga, for upland birds.

Monkey, I had looked at the Baikals (Spartans), and they look to be good guns, for quite a bit less $$ actually, than the CZ/Huglus, but I had heard from a couple of sources that they're a little rough in fit & finish, and now here I have an opportunity to get one of the Huglus for about the same price as one of the Spartans new (well still a tad bit more). Since I like the looks of the SxSs, this was the Spartan I was looking at, comparing it to the ringneck - the model 210:

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...side_specs.asp

But the ringneck has more elegance, in addition to allegedly having better fit & finish - it's got a color case-hardened receiver, engraving, better looking walnut, etc. Rem doesn't call the Baikals 'spartan' for nothing.

[sm]

My personal opinions based on a lot of trigger time and observations of others.

Automatic Safeties.

Ringneck I am not sure, still many two barrel guns come with Automatic Safeties. Meaning once the gun is broken open, and then closed, the safety is put on. Whether the gun is loaded, or not , the safety is put on.

Training Issues are serious. We train for Safe Gun use amongst and in conjuntion with other training. Be it clay games, hunting, or serious firearm use.

I like simple, when stress or excitement hits, the human body and brain do odd things. It may be the pressure of a clay game, the flush of a bird, or a bump in the night.

~~

The Four Rules of Gun Safety

These are, as far as I can tell, the official Col. Jeff Cooper Four Rules:

1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).
4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.

~~

Anything Mechanical can and will fail , therefore never depend on a mechanical safety to work.

Human beings can and will make mistakes , therefore never depend , take for granted or be complacent.

Four Rules are to always be used, that way being human, these rules provide some measure of safety if one is not followed.

--Personal Responsiblity is that of each shooter, Not me, Not TFL.
Four Rules of Safety, Range / Club/ Instructor Rules -always apply. Individual levels of training and skill levels must always be considered

Pump guns and Semi auto shotguns do NOT automatically put themselves on, they do not automatically go to "unsafe/ "fire" either.

These Two Barrel guns , be it SxS or O/U , many times have the auto safety feature disengaged. I always did.

1. Clay shooters, often leave the safety on and miss targets, so with the Four Rules of Gun safety and Club Rules, one does NOT load the gun until on the pad, station, or stage. Still no matter what action type, pump , semi, SxS, O/U , even single shot, All rules followed and gun not loaded until ready to shoot, when done, all rules observed and actions are checked, left open for shooter and others to SEE and know the safety steps have been and are being observed.

---I have seen too many shooters, "take for granted" an "automatic safety" put itself on a Pump Gun and Semi-Auto Shotgun and thankfully Rule 2 was applied when the gun discharged. --

Yep a training issue.

Gets back to simple, repetition becomes faith and then habit, add being human and getting complacent, compound with pressure, excitement , stress, and the human being be so used to a O/U or SxS putting on the safety - they messed up.

This is where If EVERY gun operates the same way, or as close as possible, the chances of mistakes are lessened. Even folk that shoot a whole bunch, and are more likely due to handling the "not if - but when" a ND will occur is lessened in my opinion.

In assisting new shooters, even kids with a PVC pipe with a cut out, so much time is "administrative", loading , unloading , 4 rules [ little kids doing this with foam rubber orange "ammo" , and poking fingers in "chambers"]

I have fired a few shotgun shells in my day, and if a Four year old wants to "see" the empty chamber(s) after I fire, wants to see me poke my finger in a chamber9s) , heck even poke thier little fingers in the chambers...I do it.
It may take a bit of time, slow the shooting some, even be a bit distracting to me or others - but distracting it is NOT.

I need to be reminded always and a Four year old reminding me is Good, always welcomed. The Four year old is seeing these lessons , being passed forward to them , actually in practice, and being "instilled" by repetition.

Get 8 kids doing this...well...umm..."each of you gets to take turns at a station, okay?"
Now we got kids "figuring out" which station they want. Station 1 is always picked last,[over too quick] and it is a long wait until station 8 . Stations where doubles are shot are favorite ..."you get to poke chambers 4 times"


Just my take on automatic safeties.

- Reloading.

http://www.mecreloaders.com/
http://www.mecreloaders.com/ProductLine/600JrMark5.asp

I read what you shared in Original Post. I am 51 , and hard-headed and suffer from selective deafness and reading disorders

After Reading Brister's Book, you will want to reload. Hanging out at the club will add to this 'want'.

One does not "save money" as much as they "shoot better quality loads" for the money.
You will be able to tailor loads for tasks, appreciate the Art & Science , and even when you choose a factory loading - be better educated about the loadings and performance for task.

Beats watching TV, I don't own a TV, one can listen to good tunes and reload.

Non-Toxic areas - Forgot about checking that out on the Ringneck.

Bismuth - if your jurisdictions allow, means instead of "having to use" Steel shot at a club or hunting area....you can reload a Bismuth loading, that YOUR gun shoots great! Bismuth is a lot like lead in characteritics, how behaves, and allows one to shoot this in non steel proofed gun 99% of the time.

Well there is that spilling shot on floor the rest of have done, or all them kids wanting to "help" reload off the tailgate of the truck [ bring gloves for little hands...] and sometimes it is not about getting to shoot yourself.

It is about a kid, shooting the same darn .410 shell, from a single shot, bringing back, "we-woad " it again, and the single mom , other ladies are not helping [kidding] they just let the kids wear you out.

I would not want you to miss out on this *grin*

Seriously - you find a used single stage at the club, for a great price because someone is upgrading to a 9000, get it.
Find one at a yard sale, get it. MEC has GREAT customer service.

Now, being real serious. Being a Responsible Firearm Owner means a whole lot more that having guns and shooting them - to me.

A new shooter, male or female, even a kid. I most times deal with ladies and kids, and some have been traumatized by guns. Meaning abused and battered and a firearm was sometimes "displayed" .

We get to the Personal Responsiblity part, restraining orders did not work, and 911 was not fast enough.

I got a lady scared to death, but willing, and I have earned her [ and kids] trust. I have to do this introduction just right.

I start with BB Guns and ping pong balls. Real guns get taken apart and I do not care how many questions, or how long, or how many times...whatever the lady [kids too] want - they get.

Now time to actually use a real gun. Four Rules of Safety is important, also the fact they [lady/ kid] has to know I am going to keep them safe and keep their concerns at the priority level.

MEC single stage reloader allows me to de- prime a hull, and put only a primer in that hull - nothing else.

I often do this with a single shot shotgun , I want this as simple as possible.
How the gun loads, how it works, what it "sounds" like when going off, and how to unload.

Double ear protection lessens felt recoil.

We may go to a O/U or SXS, a Pump gun, Semis won't cycle , still seeing, feeling understanding how everything works and a "bang" is important.

I do not care if I use up 25 primers this way - and I have. Heck I have had 500 rds of nothing but primer only hulls "loaded up " for teaching.
Not a waste - an investment.

Popcorn Kernals my next step. Just enough powder to get the wad out of the barrel and something to bust a balloon , even a stationary clay .

Self esteem soars - they broke a target, worked the gun, all safety rules observed and they broke a target! Repeat as need.

Shooter is gaining confidence, that negative in their life is going away.

Now real light target loads, and repeat. Then low 7 , all they want and now hitting a moving target.

Don't rule out the MEC single stage - yet.
If you do get into reloading, and get a progressive, such as the MEC 9000 I recommend still keep the single stage.

Single stage is great for working up a new recipe...great for the new shooters, our future.


Best of Luck,


Steve

[Pointer]

I'm still looking to get a good light-recoiling rifle strictly for upland bird hunting, up to and including pheasants.

Not gonna happen...

Semi-autos absorb recoil more than other actions...
Break opens are very efficient at transferring energy to your shoulder...

The Remington 1100 or it's children are very popular, reliable and easy pointing shotGUNS.

And there ain't no rifling in 'em.

[FirstFreedom]

lol, didn't realize I said rifle - ha.

[Barber2678]

That is some really good info SM is writing. I think there is something in there we all can use!

Kudos to SM!