Bullet choices for different yardage

[Chaparral]

Kinda new to long distant shooting. I wanted to ask someone if you are reloading a certain round and your recipe is great for 100 yards, should that recipe be good for extended range as well? I understand one should adjust for drop and so on, but one does not need a different round for different yardage do they? Hope this is not a stupid question. Thanks.

[Nick_C_S]

We'd be happy to help.

What kind of firearm are we talking about? Rifle? Pistol? Caliber? Barrel twist rate? Bullet weight?

Generally, for a given caliber/firearm, lighter bullets maintain stability over a longer distance. This has little to do with their weight, however. It is about their length. Given a specific caliber bullet, lighter ones will be shorter; and heavier ones will be longer. The longer the aspect ratio - the bullet's length, compared to its diameter - the more apt it is to become unstable due to a phenomenon known as gyroscopic procession. Barrel rifling twist gives the bullet stability. Longer bullets need more twist to maintain stability, relative to their shorter (lighter) counterparts.

That's general. Specifics will require more info.

[RC20]

As noted, more details.

I don't see any difference in 100 to 300 yards in 3 guns of different cartridges and bullets (all 30 calibers)

My brother has a load that is a bit open at 100 and tightens up at 300.

Unfortunately the 300 yard range is further away and costs more or need to buy a seasons pass for unknown use.

[Chaparral]

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

We'd be happy to help.

What kind of firearm are we talking about? Rifle? Pistol? Caliber? Barrel twist rate? Bullet weight?

Generally, for a given caliber/firearm, lighter bullets maintain stability over a longer distance. This has little to do with their weight, however. It is about their length. Given a specific caliber bullet, lighter ones will be shorter; and heavier ones will be longer. The longer the aspect ratio - the bullet's length, compared to its diameter - the more apt it is to become unstable due to a phenomenon known as gyroscopic procession. Barrel rifling twist gives the bullet stability. Longer bullets need more twist to maintain stability, relative to their shorter (lighter) counterparts.

That's general. Specifics will require more info.

This would be for rifles. No specific caliber in mind. I just have heard of some bullets tighten up at distance and some groups widen at distance. I know it is natural to shoot larger groups at distance because of variables. I have watched videos from professional long distance shooters and they always recommend shooting the heavier bullets and a barrel with twists to handle heavier bullets.

[Chaparral]

Originally Posted by RC20

As noted, more details.

I don't see any difference in 100 to 300 yards in 3 guns of different cartridges and bullets (all 30 calibers)

My brother has a load that is a bit open at 100 and tightens up at 300.

Unfortunately the 300 yard range is further away and costs more or need to buy a seasons pass for unknown use.

See that is what I am talking about how that bullet tightens at 300. What is causing that?

[bacardisteve]

Boat tail bullets typically provide best groups at 300+. Flat base bullets at 100-300. The reason from my understanding is stability. Long heavy for caliber boat tail bullets take longer to stabilize.

[RC20]

I am still struggling with that.

I know boat tails are more efficient and start to pay dividends out 300+ yards.

You can't find a match flat base though.

[hounddawg]

no bullet/load will tighten, some just have less spread than others with distance but a 1 inch group at 100 will not turn into a 1/2 inch group at 200

Boat tails tend to be the most stable past 300 and for 0 -300 whatever does the job for you

http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html for F class and http://www.65guys.com/ for long range precision both have a lot of good info

[RC20]

From the archives.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/arc...?t-518289.html

Still makes my head hurt.

[RC20]

no bullet/load will tighten, some just have less spread than others with distance but a 1 inch group at 100 will not turn into a 1/2 inch group at 200

I sort of get that, but it can be a 1 or 1.5 inch group at 200 I gather.

[Chaparral]

Originally Posted by RC20

From the archives.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/arc...?t-518289.html

Still makes my head hurt.

I read what you had attached there. Wow! That really has my wheels in my head turning right now. Not sure what to say.

[hounddawg]

I sort of get that, but it can be a 1 or 1.5 inch group at 200 I gather.

I think you got it

On my F class gun my 123 grain load will group better than the 140gr bullets at 300 and less. At 600 and 800 the 140 kicks the 123's boat tail. What I need to do is I need to find a better load for it. The bullet has great ballistics on paper I just never put the time and effort into it because the 140's shoot so great at six and eight. That 123 would make a great 1000 yard bullet with the right load I think

[T. O'Heir]

The only stupid question is the one not asked.
"...should that recipe be good for..." Yep, but it'll depend a great deal on the cartridge and bullet weight. Usually a heavier bullet works better at longer ranges. Less wind deflection.
In NRA and DCRA target shooting, 300 yards is considered short range. Long range doesn't start until 800 yards. Size of the bull changes too. However, generally speaking, with a .308, it'll be 168 grains out to 600 and 175's past there. Unless you're shooting Palma. There you get to use a 155 at all distances. With iron sights.
Then you get into hunting that's a totally different thing. You work up the load and sight in high at 100 to be on target out to about 300 yards. A 165 grain .308 is sighted in about 4 inches high at 100 to be on target out to 300 with no hold over.
"...match flat base..." None made. Match bullets tend to be BT's because of the expected distances they'll be used for.

[hounddawg]

@RC I missed you second comment earlier. Try some of the varmint bullets like Varmageddons and Zmax bullets. Shooters up the plains states use them to hit 2 inch wide prairie dogs in the worst wind conditions possible at medium ranges. Ony ones I shot were in .20 cal mid 30 grainers with .15 BC. When that barrel was fresh they shot great to 100 at .3 -.5 MOA, good to 200 with .5 to .75 MOA, so - so at 300 with 1.5 MOA + and went to crap at 600 2+ MOA

[jmr40]

have watched videos from professional long distance shooters and they always recommend shooting the heavier bullets and a barrel with twists to handle heavier bullets.

Recommending heavier bullets is an over simplification and not really accurate. When shooting beyond about 200 yards the bullets aerodynamics come into play. Within the same caliber longer bullets will be more aerodynamic. Within the same caliber longer is heavier. But not always.

Bullets aerodynamics are measured by their ballistic coefficient. BC.

A round nose 180 gr 30 caliber bullet has a BC of only .241. Some of the high BC 180 gr bullets have a BC around .535. If we shoot both of those from a 30-06 @ 2800 fps the high BC bullet has a huge edge. At only 200 yards it drops 1 inch less and has a 700 ft lb advantage.

At 500 yards the high BC bullet drops over 2 feet less and has over 1000 ft lbs more energy.

This is why cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor are becoming so popular. Their best bullets are near the .7 BC range and can be fired at reasonable speeds. To get a 30 caliber bullet with a BC in the same range it would have to weigh 215 gr or more and would need to be fired in a 300 magnum to shoot it fast enough to be useful.

I just have heard of some bullets tighten up at distance and some groups widen at distance.

A hotly debated internet topic. I've observed instances where a rifle would do no better than 1" groups at 100 yards. Logic says that rifle should do no better than 2" at 200 yards, 3" at 300 yards and 4" at 400 yards etc.

But I've seen those same rifles that shoot 1" at 100 yards shoot 1.75" at 200, 2.5" at 300 and 3" at 400 yards. Group size isn't smaller, but the MOA is. There are lots of other guys who have observed the same. Not with every rifle and load. But with specific rifles I've seen it happen.

WHY this happens is the debate. There are lots of theories, and a camp of that says it is either coincidence, or that the shooter is just aiming more precisely at longer ranges.

I don't know the answer. Just reporting that I've observed this when shooting some specific rifles. If it is coincidence, or if I'm aiming more carefully at long range then why does it happen only with certain rifles?

[TXAZ]

There are quite a few 'tack driver' rifles that can shoot 3/8 MOA at 100-200 yards.
There are not many drivers of 'tack driver' rifles that can shoot 3/8 MOA at 100-200 yards.

[hounddawg]

or that the shooter is just aiming more precisely at longer ranges

that is one theory. Like I said best I have seen guns that stay tight at range. Never seen one that got tighter.


From what I have been reading the gun that shoots 1 MOA at 100 cannot shoot 1/2 MOA at 200. Litz devotes the first 2 chapters of his latest to Rifle Bullet Dispersion and pronounced it extremely improbable. He had a challenge out to anyone that can prove it and would pay transportation and travel if they could demonstrate it for him

[old roper]

This is IBS result which is 1000 yd group and score.

http://internationalbenchrest.com/re...01000%20yd.pdf

This is record groups 1000yds

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

[jamaica]

" if you are reloading a certain round and your recipe is great for 100 yards, should that recipe be good for extended range as well?"

I am going to say it will be just fine up till 300 yards. I am going to say my main interest in shooting was to hunt and shoot critters. I always sighted in my rifles to shoot about 2 inches above point of aim at 100 yards. With this setting you could hold midships of a deer sized animal at any distance up to 300 yards and nail it.

Please remember that the rifle, the temperature, the wind, the shooters hold, etc. all play a part in hitting the mark. If bench rest shooting always hold the gun the same way and press the stock against your shoulder with the same pressure.

[30Cal]

I shoot a 125gr bullet in 308 for up close (200 and less). It's very accurate, relatively cheap, and easy to shoot with little recoil. And the wind doesn't matter much at that range.

I shoot a 155 or 175 past 200yds.