A Few Specific Questions: Regarding Ar-15 & Home Defense - Page 2

JohnFireingLine · October 8, 2018, 09:42 PM

Here is what I know:

Bullets go through walls and it doesn't really matter what you are shooting. Shotgun pellets go through sheetrock too, especially if you are using #000 and #0000 like I am told you are supposed to. Your bullets are gonna go through walls plan and simple.

If I was expecting to be in a firefight I think this question would be simple. I'd prob just use .556 military grade FMJ. But I am talking about the distance inside of a normal household in a scenario where I would be within my legal rights to fire my gun in self defense.

In that instance, I am only interested in the bullets effect on target. It would appear that a softpoint has a greater effect on target based upon what I have seen. However what I read on various internet forms paints a different picture. Often times they say SP is bad. But it doesn't look bad at all when I see it being used in ballistics gel. So this leaves me a bit confused. I am looking for guidance

Do people say Sp ammo is bad because they are attempting to include shooting scenarios that are outside of the home into the equation? Is there another reason that I am not aware of?

As for the TAP ammo...some one I knew and trusted a great deal told me that was the ammo of choice. I have the opportunity to get a hold of some but at .55 grains I don't see why this ammo has such a good reputation, The heavier TAP ammo looks pretty amazing... just not at .55 grains. I really don't know. This is just my own personal observation. It would appear that .55 grain softpoint ammo delivers the maximum amount of energy onto (and inside of) the target while still achieving a relatively desirable 10 to 12 inch penetration. Again this is just a personal observation and I am not very educated in the subject. I am just looking for some guidance and direction

Art Eatman · October 9, 2018, 06:55 AM

All I know is that a 55-grain soft point makes a bunch of mush inside a coyote.

**44 AMP** · October 9, 2018, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Often times they say SP is bad. But it doesn't look bad at all when I see it being used in ballistics gel. So this leaves me a bit confused.

The confusion is understandable, and brought about by the all two common tendency to shorten names, which can leave out vital information.

"SP is bad"..ok WHAT SP is "Bad" and why? There's a LOT of different bullets with much different construction and terminal performance under the broad heading of "SP".

There are SP "varmint" bullets and there are SP bullets built for more controlled expansion. And they can be the same weight, so just because its a 55gr bullet doesn't mean anything beyond it weighs 55gr.

I understand (but don't know for certain) that the ammo being sold as "personal defense" class stuff is not loaded with "varmint" bullets. They are supposedly loaded with a more controlled expansion kind.

I know for a fact and personal observation over decades what "varmint" bullets do, and don't do, out of .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball, .222 Rem, .223 Rem, and .22-250. There's about nothing better when your live target is 5-50lbs. When your target is larger, things change.

A 55gr SP meant for shooting woodchucks will do what it does on bigger things (like people) but what it does isn't certain to be enough to stop a determined attack (with a single round). It MIGHT, it probably will, BUT, its not certain in the way a round that penetrates deeper is "certain".

Penetration in gel is a method for ROUGHLY comparing performance, but real people are not gel.

Penetration is the bug-a-boo with a lot of people today. Probably because too many people live too close together....they're worried about the neighbors, and rightly so, in many cases. HOWEVER, there's no free lunch, and its nearly impossible to make a bullet that will NOT go through walls but will go through people, deeply enough, and do it under every possible real world set of circumstances.

That bullet (whatever caliber & speed) that meets all the "recommended" penetration requirements, can (and has) failed in the real world when the specific circumstances require it to do more than the stated requirements.

I keep coming back to the 9mm JHP that "failed" in the Miami Shootout. It did everything it was spec'd to do. BUT additional real world factors changed things enough that what it was spec'd to do wasn't enough, that day.

If gel test performance of a certain bullet is enough to make you feel good, remember to get that EXACT SAME BULLET or you won't get that exact same performance. A bullet built to take out a deer, (or a man) can be the same size weight and speed as one built to take out a coyote or a prairie dog. They might even LOOK identical. Make sure you know what you've got, and what's its best at.

JohnFireingLine · October 9, 2018, 09:15 PM

44 AMP might you have a recommendation?

JohnFireingLine · October 9, 2018, 09:50 PM

Okay so...

Since I have posted here I have been doing my own research. A little bit every night. I don't feel like I have really gotten an answer in this thread so my conclusions are as follows. I hope this helps someone else someday. I am also putting my conclusions up for review just in case, ya know... i miss something.

I think the TAP ammo is a nope. I am really kinda surprised because the guy who told me about that ammo was a badass special forces guy. Even 9.5 inches penetration of the 60 gain leaves allot of "what if'" to consider. There are some really big dudes out there.

I think the winners are the 55 grain Hornady GMX HP and the 55 grain Federal Bonded SP. 16 and 20 inches respectively with a great wound channel in both cases. Since I am not worried about over penetration (because it's an AR-15 and bullets simply go through walls period) I feel as though these two rounds do the most damage on target. They are ofc expensive... which means other people probably know about these rounds too. I will try to locate these rounds or I will try and find rounds that have somewhat comparable ballistics.

Mobuck · October 10, 2018, 05:58 AM

If you've ever seen a FMJ wound that produced only a pencil sized hole, you'll understand why FMJ is actually a poor choice. FMJ is REQUIRED for military use by international agreement. I'm NOT in a military conflict and I can use a more effective bullet design.
I don't need a bullet that gives full penetration but I do want that bullet to make a large and very noticeable(read that as PAINFUL) wound. A varmint bullet hitting a human arm @ 10' will do that. A fringe hit with a fast expanding bullet may stop the aggression while a FMJ may just increase the effort requiring more hits to end an attack.

**44 AMP** · October 10, 2018, 06:15 PM

Quote:

44 AMP might you have a recommendation?

The only recommendation I will make is to evaluate your personal situation, keeping in mind that there's no free lunch. (meaning that every advantage also has a disadvantage)

And decide what best fits your situation and priorities.

Do you live in a crackerbox, surrounded by other crackerboxes, to the sides. Above? Below?? Are there 600 people within a half mile radius??

Or are you in a concrete walled ranch house, surrounded by orchards 1/4 mile from your nearest neighbor, 30+ yards different in altitude?? Or something else?

My house has a maximum straight line distance of a bit under 40 feet. I live in the middle of farm country, miles from town and some distance from neighbors. My "home defense" guns are a 12ga coach gun (and no matter what the experts say, I'm comfortable believing a full load of birdshot to the face will go a long way to changing an attacker's mind. Backed up with several loaded handguns. Several different rifles also available, but I've got better stuff for use inside the house.

Your situation is certainly somewhat different. Maybe completely different. What you have to consider is what is most important, and what drawbacks you can live with. Opening doors, navigating turns, hallways, etc, long guns have a drawback over a handgun. Handguns are more difficult to aim than long guns. lots and lots of factors to consider, there is no one "best" for everyone. Outside the house? Carbine over pistol for me, IF I have the choice.

davidsog · October 12, 2018, 08:46 AM

Quote:

My head hurts. Is this Groundhog Day? Might as well make this post completely useless and say something stupid like,”Getting some popcorn , here we go again”.

LOL, hopefully the OP will just be smart enough to vet the information by getting real engineering reports instead of youtube and fansites.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 12, 2018, 03:52 PM

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/...ion/5-1819870/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hJZdtPcVdE

These are all for 55-grain M193 military issue-type ammo. I don't think I'd care to be shot with it ...

**Aguila Blanca** · October 13, 2018, 08:06 PM

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/10/0...-223-vs-22-lr/

raimius · October 14, 2018, 03:48 AM

Pretty much all of the name brand defensive loads in 5.56 are going to be decent. (I try to ignore the gimmick loads.) TAP and many bonded soft points should meet the FBI 12-18in gel criteria and provide respectable wound channels.
The 55grain TAP URBAN load does look like it consistently underperforms in penetration.

I would recommend sticking to rounds that meet the 12-18in gel metric. It's not perfect, but it is a good baseline.

Bartholomew Roberts · October 14, 2018, 07:19 AM

If you are looking for information on self-defense ammo of any kind; but particularly AR15s, this is an incredible resource: https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Se...ense_Ammo_FAQ/

It is a lot to read through and understand; but even if you only grasp half of what’s in there you’ll be a lot better educated.

Sharkbite · October 14, 2018, 09:55 AM

Quote:

The 55grain TAP URBAN load does look like it consistently underperforms in penetration.

The idea with that loading was to reduce penetration. The TAP line has both barrier blind AND minimized penetration offerings. Just gotta pick the one that suits your needs

October 8, 2018, 09:42 PM	#26
JohnFireingLine Junior Member Join Date: October 6, 2018 Posts: 7	Here is what I know: Bullets go through walls and it doesn't really matter what you are shooting. Shotgun pellets go through sheetrock too, especially if you are using #000 and #0000 like I am told you are supposed to. Your bullets are gonna go through walls plan and simple. If I was expecting to be in a firefight I think this question would be simple. I'd prob just use .556 military grade FMJ. But I am talking about the distance inside of a normal household in a scenario where I would be within my legal rights to fire my gun in self defense. In that instance, I am only interested in the bullets effect on target. It would appear that a softpoint has a greater effect on target based upon what I have seen. However what I read on various internet forms paints a different picture. Often times they say SP is bad. But it doesn't look bad at all when I see it being used in ballistics gel. So this leaves me a bit confused. I am looking for guidance Do people say Sp ammo is bad because they are attempting to include shooting scenarios that are outside of the home into the equation? Is there another reason that I am not aware of? As for the TAP ammo...some one I knew and trusted a great deal told me that was the ammo of choice. I have the opportunity to get a hold of some but at .55 grains I don't see why this ammo has such a good reputation, The heavier TAP ammo looks pretty amazing... just not at .55 grains. I really don't know. This is just my own personal observation. It would appear that .55 grain softpoint ammo delivers the maximum amount of energy onto (and inside of) the target while still achieving a relatively desirable 10 to 12 inch penetration. Again this is just a personal observation and I am not very educated in the subject. I am just looking for some guidance and direction

October 9, 2018, 06:55 AM	#27
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	All I know is that a 55-grain soft point makes a bunch of mush inside a coyote.

October 9, 2018, 09:15 PM	#29
JohnFireingLine Junior Member Join Date: October 6, 2018 Posts: 7	44 AMP might you have a recommendation?

October 9, 2018, 09:50 PM	#30
JohnFireingLine Junior Member Join Date: October 6, 2018 Posts: 7	Okay so... Since I have posted here I have been doing my own research. A little bit every night. I don't feel like I have really gotten an answer in this thread so my conclusions are as follows. I hope this helps someone else someday. I am also putting my conclusions up for review just in case, ya know... i miss something. I think the TAP ammo is a nope. I am really kinda surprised because the guy who told me about that ammo was a badass special forces guy. Even 9.5 inches penetration of the 60 gain leaves allot of "what if'" to consider. There are some really big dudes out there. I think the winners are the 55 grain Hornady GMX HP and the 55 grain Federal Bonded SP. 16 and 20 inches respectively with a great wound channel in both cases. Since I am not worried about over penetration (because it's an AR-15 and bullets simply go through walls period) I feel as though these two rounds do the most damage on target. They are ofc expensive... which means other people probably know about these rounds too. I will try to locate these rounds or I will try and find rounds that have somewhat comparable ballistics.

October 10, 2018, 05:58 AM	#31
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	If you've ever seen a FMJ wound that produced only a pencil sized hole, you'll understand why FMJ is actually a poor choice. FMJ is REQUIRED for military use by international agreement. I'm NOT in a military conflict and I can use a more effective bullet design. I don't need a bullet that gives full penetration but I do want that bullet to make a large and very noticeable(read that as PAINFUL) wound. A varmint bullet hitting a human arm @ 10' will do that. A fringe hit with a fast expanding bullet may stop the aggression while a FMJ may just increase the effort requiring more hits to end an attack.

October 12, 2018, 03:52 PM	#34
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/...ion/5-1819870/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hJZdtPcVdE These are all for 55-grain M193 military issue-type ammo. I don't think I'd care to be shot with it ...

October 13, 2018, 08:06 PM	#35
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/10/0...-223-vs-22-lr/

October 14, 2018, 03:48 AM	#36
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Pretty much all of the name brand defensive loads in 5.56 are going to be decent. (I try to ignore the gimmick loads.) TAP and many bonded soft points should meet the FBI 12-18in gel criteria and provide respectable wound channels. The 55grain TAP URBAN load does look like it consistently underperforms in penetration. I would recommend sticking to rounds that meet the 12-18in gel metric. It's not perfect, but it is a good baseline.

October 14, 2018, 07:19 AM	#37
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	If you are looking for information on self-defense ammo of any kind; but particularly AR15s, this is an incredible resource: https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Se...ense_Ammo_FAQ/ It is a lot to read through and understand; but even if you only grasp half of what’s in there you’ll be a lot better educated.