A new, fast, small bore semi-auto

[270]

Question came to my mind. Has anyone ever come-out with a high velocity 22-25 caliber bottle necked semi-auto handgun cartridge?

Seems like there'd be a market for it and it'd be very lethal when driven at high velocity with fragile bullets. Low recoil too.

270

[9x19]

There was one experimenter, used to post with the handle "Vibe" who was working on such, using .25ACP cases, IIRC.

He called his the .22 Epperson Cricket, but I don't know that he ever really got it out of the experimentation stage.

[oldandslow]

270, 10/30/10

Seems like your describing the FN 5.7mm X 28mm round. It is a small bore, high speed cartridge with reportedly low recoil. It's been out for several years but hasn't caught on to most mainstream shooters yet.

best wishes- oldandslow

[Claddagh]

Plus the .30 Luger, .30 Mauser, 7.62x25 Tokarev, .25 NAA, .32 NAA, etc, etc.

[FoxtrotRomeo]

Yup the Tokerev and the 5.7

I'm not a big fan of the 5.7 except when loaded up in a PS90.

But I'm looking forward to the day when I get my FS2000. Those are really nice.

[Microgunner]

I own a S&W mod 53 revolver in .22 Remington Jet which is a .357mag case necked down (actually tapered down) to .22. Ammo is scarce and expensive. Luckily my revolver also has a .22lr cylinder fitted. Don't think it would be easy to make work in a semi-auto though.

[270]

Microgunner,

I had one of those nearly 50 years ago. Bought it new with inserts. Recall shooting one groundhog with it at about 25 yds. DRT--dead right there. Pretty neat gun.

Recall previous to owning it I read about it in one of the gun magazines and they had me excited. Expect this has happened to many in this group. No. I know it has.

270

[ballardw]

And a guy was working on something he called the .22 Bell which was a 7.62x25 necked down to .22. But that website doesn't look like much is going on any more.

[MLeake]

... in addition to the PS90, have you looked at the available AR conversions? A 50rd capacity in an M4 length carbine isn't a bad deal, either.

[PSP]

HK makes a small bottleneck 4.6mm round for their MP7, (which is unavailable in a civilian form), and they also developed a pistol in this caliber but saddly, never completed developement on it.

[44 AMP]

As the .22 Micro mag, (or mighty mag, I can't recall exactly and don't have the ad). Did some checking, its a 1911 pattern gun, using a wide body frame with a capacity of 15 or 17. Case is a shortened .223 brass, with 55gr bullet.

The maker (a small shop, apparently) is offering the basic gun for about $1K, and both ammo, and a reloading service. They did not have reloading dies.

New wildcat round, you buy ammo from them, and then they will reload the brass for you. Velocity was in the 2200fps range IIRC.

They had a small ad in the back of the handgunner mag. A friend was interested, until he got their info, and then decided to pass.

[jersey_emt]

.25 NAA

.32 ACP necked down to .25 caliber.

[Mr Lucky]

Question came to my mind. Has anyone ever come-out with a high velocity 22-25 caliber bottle necked semi-auto handgun cartridge?

Seems like there'd be a market for it and it'd be very lethal when driven at high velocity with fragile bullets. Low recoil too.

Not .22 or .25 but a good alternative for .32 long or .32 H&R is .327 Federal Magnum. It is nearly comparable to 9 mm.

There are not too many guns made for this round yet. It was developed around the Ruger SP101. Later the Ruger GP100, Charter Arms Patriots. and a few others.

[Sevens]

.327 Federal Mag would be lousy in a semi-auto as it's a rimmed revolver round. It's very, very similar to the .30 Carbine which is a rimless round and can/has been made to work in a semi-auto handgun.

[highvel]

The .44 Automag worked pretty good with the rimmed case, it can be done

[FoxtrotRomeo]

.327 Federal Mag would be lousy in a semi-auto as it's a rimmed revolver round. It's very, very similar to the .30 Carbine which is a rimless round and can/has been made to work in a semi-auto handgun.

I wouldn't bet on that. 7.62x54R does extremely well in a full blown funswitch PKM rocking out from a helo and that's full-on auto with a rimmed round and not just semi-auto.

As the person said before me, it can be done. We as human beings are only limited to what limitations we put on ourselves. Don't stop at the top. Your apex might become someone else's mere beginning.

[carguychris]

I wouldn't bet on that. 7.62x54R does extremely well in a full blown funswitch PKM rocking out from a helo and that's full-on auto with a rimmed round and not just semi-auto.

Machine guns are normally belt-fed. Rimmed rounds generally won't work well in a double-stack pistol magazine because they stack in a curved shape and don't feed well.

[Sevens]

Yep, anything can be done. It's whether or not it works, works reliably and offers something. When you consider what the .327 Federal Mag offers, and how it compares to .30 Carbine (similar diameter, similar cartridge length, similar bullet weight and running at nearly the exact same pressure), it would be an easier road to simply make your semi-auto pistol out of the .30 Carb if that's what you were going for.

I've always thought the idea of .30 Carb in a handgun would be a rolling riot, but as far as I can tell, it's only ever been attempted twice. Once in a dismal failure (Kimball) and once by AMT/IAI, and that one never really caught on.

[Mr Lucky]

.327 Federal Mag would be lousy in a semi-auto as it's a rimmed revolver round

Yes, .327 Federal Magnum cartridges are rimmed. All .22LR cartridges are rimmed but work equally well in either revolvers or semi-automatics. Most .22 semi-auto pistols have a 10 rd. single stack magazines.

The Kel-Tec PMR-30 is chambered for .22 Magnum rimfire in a double stack magazine. It has been fairly successful and is being marketed as an SD pistol.

The .327 Federal cartridge is similar to .32 H&R except 1/8" longer. Federal claims the .327 is close to a .357 without the recoil. I don't think so. It is much closer to a 9 mm as ballistic tested.

So, I don't see that .327 could not work in a semi auto pistol with or without a high cap magazine.

[10mmAuto]

"Machine guns are normally belt-fed. Rimmed rounds generally won't work well in a double-stack pistol magazine because they stack in a curved shape and don't feed well"
I'm pretty sure Dragunov magazines are double stack and they feed 7.62x54R pretty reliably. Just puttin that out there.

[kozak6]

There's the .22 Reed Express. It's a 7.62x25 case necked down to .22.

There's also the .223 Timbs, which is a 7.62x25 case loaded with sabot and a .22 cal projectile.

A .327 mag semiauto strikes me as excessively silly. The cartridge is directly comparable to 7.62x25 or a 9mm, both of which are cheaper and widely available. No rimlock either.

I've always thought the idea of .30 Carb in a handgun would be a rolling riot, but as far as I can tell, it's only ever been attempted twice. Once in a dismal failure (Kimball) and once by AMT/IAI, and that one never really caught on.

Iver-Johnson produced an M1 carbine "pistol" known as the Enforcer.

The .44 Automag worked pretty good with the rimmed case, it can be done

Actually, no it didn't. It was chambered in .44 AMP, which is rimless.

[10mmAuto]

.30 carbine is way too long to be chambered in any kind of proper semi automatic handgun

[Sevens]

I love a good, respectful debate!

Yes, .327 Federal Magnum cartridges are rimmed. All .22LR cartridges are rimmed but work equally well in either revolvers or semi-automatics. Most .22 semi-auto pistols have a 10 rd. single stack magazines.
.22 semi-auto pistols do seem to work well even with their rimmed nature... but... full size pistols are limited to 10 rounds because of the harsh grip angle that makes it necessary to run rimmed rounds through a magazine. Not to mention the fact that it takes a full length grip at a fairly harsh angle to fit 10 of them even considering how small they are (compared to common sized rounds that might be used for defense.) This isn't a fair comparison to .327 Fed Mag.

The Kel-Tec PMR-30 is chambered for .22 Magnum rimfire in a double stack magazine. It has been fairly successful and is being marketed as an SD pistol.
I can't buy any argument that says this pistol has been fairly successful. Nobody can get one, they've delayed shipment of them for months and if any have made it in to the hands of consumers, we sure have a hard time hearing any range reports of them.

For my buck, I'm quite interested to see how on earth they stuff 30 rounds of a rimmed .22 Mag in to the magazine that feeds this pistol. I was quite interested with the very first press release.

The .327 Federal cartridge is similar to .32 H&R except 1/8" longer. Federal claims the .327 is close to a .357 without the recoil. I don't think so. It is much closer to a 9 mm as ballistic tested.

So, I don't see that .327 could not work in a semi auto pistol with or without a high cap magazine.
Well, we are kind drifting this in to a .327 Federal Mag conversation... which I would enjoy, but really isn't appropriate in this thread. But we've had a number of these threads and I enjoy them immensely. I can't tell you where it falls as a defensive round (especially without any real street data) but I can tell you that I shoot it and I handload it and it's a great cartridge. But I also shoot and handload the .30 Carb, and the two of them are twins separated at birth. And if you are going to make a semi-auto out of one of them, you'd be foolish to make it out of the rimmed one.

In a semi-auto platform, the only possible thing I can imagine that makes the .327 Federal Mag more attractive than the .30 Carb would be that the bullets designed in .312" diameter are much more appropriate than the small rifle slugs built for the .30 Carbine. (and as a secondary plus, .327 is less work at the load bench for handloaders)

[44 AMP]

The .44 Automag worked pretty good with the rimmed case, it can be done

Actually, no it didn't. It was chambered in .44 AMP, which is rimless.

The .44AMP is indeed a rimless case. Based on a cut off (and reamed) .308 Win rifle case, .44AMP brass can be formed from any rifle case with that same head dimensions. Its a pain, but I have done it.

What highvel was probably thinking of is the Desert Eagle, which uses the standard rimmed revolver rounds in .44 Magnum & .357 Magnum (although one must use jacketed bullets due to the gas system in that pistol).

The Desert Eagle, and the Coonan (.357mag) use a single stack magazine. I also had an LAR Grizzly in regular .44 Magnum, and it worked too.

Rimmed rounds work fine in semi autos, just look at all the .22s out there.

[Mr Lucky]

Sevens,
I too enjoy a good discussion and or debate. I'm going to have to declare you the official winner regarding .327 Magnum use in a semi-auto pistol. My reasons include but are not limited to:

• I'm not a reloader, only a user. I am not qualified to comment regarding a subject I have no real expertise in.

• The .327 round is fairly new 2007-2008 I think, and not in wide use.

• As mentioned, there are other cartridges on the market that would probably render this round in a pistol only a novelty

• It might not work well in a double stack magazine. I believe the Kel-Tec PMR-30 magazine is actually slightly curved.

I survived without getting beaten up too bad and I think I learned something.:barf: