Offset Primer and a Bad Day for my Dies (not for faint of heart)

[LBussy]

So I purchased 1,000 FN 5.56 rounds, headstamped "FNB". I tried de-priming this evening. The first one stuck in the die, thanks One-Shot. I gave them all another GOOD shot of One-Shot since it's what I have on hand. Second one ... stuck in the die and I can't get it out. I guess this will go back to Lee to see if they can fix it. Might be cheaper to just buy a new die.

So aside from that I noticed it took a LOT of pressure to get the primer out. They don't seem to be swaged or staked (or are they?). If they are swaged, I've done swaged brass before and don't remember them being this tough.
They are sealed with some green sealant. Anyone ever seen/experienced that?



Finally, and this might contribute to them being hard to de-prime: I noticed that the flash hole is off-center. This is not Berdan primed but a Boxer primer visibly offset. I only had the chance to check two since the sizing/de-priming die is now otherwise encumbered, but that seems very strange to me that they are off-center. Anyone else seen this?



So whenever I do get a die back, should I even attempt this FN brass again?

[Reloadron]

Well you are what? Two for two with stuck cases. I have seen the primer sealant used and it is normal to feel more resistance. I have had decapping pins actually drive through the primers. Me? I would likely just shoot them and trash them but I have more 223 brass than I will likely ever shoot during my lifetime. As to the One Shot? I have heard it is great if you follow the directions to the letter and also heard horror stories of stuck cases and since I have never used it I can't comment. Again, if I am having stuck case followed by stuck case I am going to find out why or simply trash the brass.

Ron

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Reloadron

[I]f I am having stuck case followed by stuck case I am going to find out why or simply trash the brass.

Well, that's why I'm asking here if anyone has any experience with this brass. I don't know if it's because of the offset primer or what.

I just packaged up my die and sent it off to Lee. I'm also going to thing very seriously about some of that Lanolin-based (homemade) case lube.

Oh, the pic of the trashed case head is after I lost my temper and used a vice-grip to try to get it out. It worked the first time, not so much the second.

[Smoke & Recoil]

LBussy, I'm not bashing you, but are you aware that you can get (stuck case) removers
and remove these on you're own ?

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Smoke & Recoil

LBussy, I'm not bashing you, but are you aware that you can get (stuck case) removers
and remove these on you're own ?

Yes sir. I don't have one however so I might look at that next. I'd take a recommendation.

I however damaged the pin as well trying to get the darned thing out so the die and pin are damaged as well as having a stuck case. I'm hoping the folks at Lee will take pity on me. At worst I think they will charge me half for a new die.

[Smoke & Recoil]

Oh, and RBCS case lube works great, a simple roll on the pad is all it takes. And yes, I have seen several flash holes off center but it's not a problem with the Lee Universal
depriming die.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Smoke & Recoil

Oh, and RBCS case lube works great, a simple roll on the pad is all it takes. And yes, I have seen several flash holes off center but it's not a problem with the Lee Universal
depriming die.

I may have to pick one of those up, thanks for the tip.

[Smoke & Recoil]

@ LBussy

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hornady-050...MAAOSwdSRaC~Mb

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Univers...kAAOSwK~RaFyfL

[gwpercle]

The best way to handle sealed and/or crimped in primer cases is to use a Lee Universal Decapping Die ( Lee #90292) this die is used in the press but only decaps ...it does not size and is made to decap military/crimped/sealed cases. Since you are not sizing , only decapping , you can feel the pin stop if it is not in the hole, turn the case until the pin drops into the hole and deprime.

Option #2 is the Lee Decapper and Base (Lee #90103-22 cal.) it is a steel rod with a fixed decapping pin and steel base. The primer is removed with a mallet. May seem crude but offset primer holes do not matter, you slip the pin into the hole and knock it out.

Using the sizing/depriming die only works with factory non crimped , non sealed primered cases. Since I got a decapping die I now do all my cases with it before sizing, just makes sizing easier.

Sorry about stuck cases, we all do them until we learn the good case lubes from the OK case lubes....One Shot is only OK in my experience. I don't like it...a little dab of STP oil treatment is greasy and messy but I've never stuck a case with it. 303 British crimped/sealed military cases fired in a machine gun with a generous WWII chamber were the ultimate test and STP worked....nothing else did. I full length resized them but decapped them first with the Lee Universal Decapping Die , those cases were a son of a gun to resize even lubed with STP Oil Treatment.
Gary

[Stats Shooter]

The thing is folks, universal decapping dies won't help off center flash holes.

I ran into some of those cases myself in some range brass and broke 2 decapping pins on them. I don't think that they are worth the trouble, even if you do figure out a way to decap them without busting pins. Mainly because you will be in the same boat again next time. You can get once fired 223 brass for cheap online, or free doing range pickup.

I use only LC once fired brass because I KNOW if it is truly once fired given how long they are once resized and the crimp on the primer.

Anyway, I think I would put them in the ol scrap brass bin.

[Smoke & Recoil]

The Lee #90292 is a great depriming die as the decapping pin pushes up to avoid
breaking the pin, if it press' up, you just reset it and run again.

[Chainsaw.]

If it makes you feel better my buddy helped me load today by breaking a primer punch and wrecking my primer system, how I have no idea.

[JeepHammer]

The primer is most certainly staked into place, in three places.
Might check to see if the flash hole is undersized, I had that issue with some FNB brass just about a month ago.
Off center flash holes is fairly common with European NATO brass, but usually not that far!

I think I would use a universal decapper, moving the brass around a little to make sure the pin hits the flash hole before you bear down to decap, or scrap the brass entirely.
A third option would be set the brass aside for shortage times.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Chainsaw.

If it makes you feel better my buddy helped me load today by breaking a primer punch and wrecking my primer system, how I have no idea.

Ouch! With friends like that ....

Okay I went to Cabella's last night and got the Universal Decapping Die. I did a few more before bed and had absolutely no issues so my working theory is that I'll never use One Shot again and the brass was dirty/gritty enough to stick. I'll de-prime the rest of these and wet process them before doing anything else.

Those of you using the RCBS pad, or even fingers: How do you get the lube inside the neck? Never mind this part, I'll start a new thread as I'm getting off topic.

[JohnKSa]

The primer is most certainly staked into place, in three places.

I agree.

Interestingly enough, they are not centered on the primer pocket AND, based on the second picture posted, they are offset in the same direction as the primer hole.

That suggests that batch of brass was created on machinery that wasn't aligned properly.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

I agree.

Interestingly enough, they are not centered on the primer pocket AND, based on the second picture posted, they are offset in the same direction as the primer hole.

That suggests that batch of brass was created on machinery that wasn't aligned properly.

About 50% of the brass ended up having that offset hole. I'd say the hole location "wandered" rather than was strictly in one place. I guess that makes me feel worse. I'd always thought FN was a good brand of ammunition. The "wandering holes" speak otherwise. I guess they all fired just fine.

I am going to borrow a friend's Dillon Swager to see if I like it. This will be a good batch to try it on.

[Smoke & Recoil]

To lube the inside of the case mouth, I just swirl the case mouth on the lube
pad, a little go's a long way. Some people use a bristle brush...roll the bristles
on the lube pad and push/pull into the case mouth. Again, a little go's a long way.

[jpx2rk]

I just "dab" the case neck on the pad lightly when using RCBS lube & pad, every 3-5 cases or when I feel it starting to drag too much.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Smoke & Recoil

To lube the inside of the case mouth, I just swirl the case mouth on the lube
pad, a little go's a long way. Some people use a bristle brush...roll the bristles
on the lube pad and push/pull into the case mouth. Again, a little go's a long way.

Originally Posted by jpx2rk

I just "dab" the case neck on the pad lightly when using RCBS lube & pad, every 3-5 cases or when I feel it starting to drag too much.

Thanks. I may give the pad a try.

[HiBC]

brass was dirty/gritty enough to stick.

And there you have it.An opportunity for improvement!! And a root cause.

The grit will press into the brass.Its harder than the steel in the dies,and it has sharp teeth. Not so good for dies or chambers.Now,try to have a cartoon like vision of what happens on a microscopic level.The grit is forced into the brass by the hard steel die.The drag of going in orients the grit in a trailing fashion.
I'm saying your grit creates condition resembling pushing a bore brush partly through a bore,then trying to reverse and pull t back out.The glass hard grit bites into the steel of the die.

The universal decap die or the knockout punch are excellent ideas.
If you can visually sort the flasholes you can see first,IMO,they aren't worth the trouble.

Now take your decapped brass and get it clean. This process has evolved some.I still use a vibratory bowl and media.Only run clean brass into your sizing die.Onceagain,visuaally cull offcenter flash holes.

I loathe the RCBS lube pad!! Though it does work.
I have not used the Hornady lube,No comment,good or bad. You do have to apply spray lube right for it to work.I like spray lube. RCBS and Dillon work.
I'm pretty sure they are lanolin in a volatile carrier.
Put your brass in a plastic bin or bucket,and not more than an inch or so of brass. Spray over it ,fairly generously. Now shake it around.Repeat twice.

Now you must wait,at least 15 min.30is better. The volatile carrier must evaporate before sizing,or you will stick cases..Traces of lube will get inside the necks. The expander pug friction should not be a problem.
Feel the brass. You don't wantit sloppy with lube,but you want to be able to feel it is there.

Now,your troubles are not over with this brass. You will have a horrible time trying to prime the crimped cases.

There is more than one way to remove crimps. Rather than me writing about it,try reading loading manuals on the subject.
In my experience,the Dillon bench tool ($100) works really well.

[jugornot]

I have never had a stuck case, maybe because of my sequence of operations. I decap everything and then use an ultrasonic cleaner before the brass touches my dies.

[Charlie98]

I don't think that they are worth the trouble, even if you do figure out a way to decap them without busting pins. Mainly because you will be in the same boat again next time.

.223 brass is too plentiful to waste time fooling with a bad batch. It is almost painful to let go a batch of nice looking brass, like that FNB appears to be, but the time and effort don't appear to be worth it. It looks like you were able to cull out some of the brass that looks serviceable... that's a good thing.

Like one of the other posters mentioned, read the directions on the OneShot. I stuck about 4 cases before I actually read and followed the directions, now I don't have that problem. True story. And I'm talking some big cases like .30-06 and .348.

[Unclenick]

That's my first thought, too. Let the carrier evaporate. I use a number of case lubes, both wipe-on and spray. I've had stuck cases with both. The only system that seems to work flawlessly for spray is I dilute Lee case lube about 10:1 in rubbing alcohol (70%) and spray it on and let it dry, and then spray on the canned lube and let it set an hour or two as well. Two layers seems to work better than one. For rub-on, I've become partial to Hornady Unique. I used Imperial Sizing Wax for a long time, but Unique seems to work as well and is considerably more economical. It is easier to get too much on, though, and wind up with neck indentations.

The off-center flash holes are caused either by drilling without adequate support for the drill to stop if from walking, or by not centering the case over the drill. I believe all mil spec case brass is drilled.

As the others commented, you have a form of what is called a staked crimp on that case.



If the cases are gritty, they should be cleaned with a rag or even tumbled in dry corncob for a bit to remove that.

[joed]

On using Ohe Shot. I've used it since it came out. It works well for me and has never given me a stuck case.

Before using it, shake it well and spray the cases. Don't let those cases sit very long and resize them. Before applying it to the next cases shake it again and follow the above.

Whatever is in that can separates so you have to constantly shake it before applying it to brass.

The stuff works great as long as you shake the can first.

[RC20]

Well when it says 5.56 you can be sure its military ammo and its going to be staked.

That is a NATO symbol on the left. It may have stuff on the case as well.

FNB is noted for the off center holes, its a one fire and done thing. NATO does note care.

I would not touch it, you can pick up good brass all day long at the range (or buy it second hand)

One shot has some issues if not used right, I over spray it and does fine.

I did not know about stuck case remover either, I actually drilled a case out of a die one time.

Case remover more better.