C.O.A.L problems .223 HELP

M79 · January 31, 2009, 01:08 AM

I am loading .223 for my AR-15 and have run into a problem. My Cartridge Over All Length is inconsistent here is my load data:

Brass: Winchester
Primer: Winchester
Bullets: Winchester FMJ 55 grain
Powder: Win 748

Trimming case to: 1.753
Over all cartridge length: 2.260

NO crimp

Here is how my loads are coming out this is the Cartridge over all length Im getting a range of:

2.212 - 2.232 ( many variations out of 30 loads to this point )

There does not seem to be a deciding factor as to why this is happening all my cases are trimmed the same and all my primers are pushed all the way into the pocket. The only thing I have found is my cheap Win 55 grain bullets are not all the same length but I don't see how this would effect the over all case cartridge length? I am really confused and am hopping some one here can shed some light on this for me. Im starting to think I have a bad die set?

Thanks
Brandon

I have loaded

robctwo · January 31, 2009, 01:32 AM

What press are you loading these on? What dies are you using?

tkcomer · January 31, 2009, 08:39 AM

Your seating die seats the bullet on the ogive, or the curvature of the bullet. Not the nose of it. Those Winchester FMJs are all over the map for that. Been there, done that. Not much you can do unless you want to adjust your seater die on each individual bullet. Just load and go. As long as you're not over the maximum length, you should be good to go.

rwilson452 · January 31, 2009, 09:07 AM

I would think that if you get something like a Sinclair bullet comparator you will see a more consistent COAL as it measures off the ogive. Your would need to allow for the difference between the ogive measurement and the tip measurement.

Alleykat · January 31, 2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

I would think that if you get something like a Sinclair bullet comparator you will see a more consistent COAL as it measures off the ogive. Your would need to allow for the difference between the ogive measurement and the tip measurement

That "theory" would only work if he's using the Sinclair tool when seating every bullet. He's not setting up his dies correctly...kind of like his grammar!

M79 · January 31, 2009, 09:47 AM

Im using a RCBS PRO 2000 with RCBS dies. I have reloaded pistol for many years but this is my first attempt in loading rifle.

As for the Ogive my would a more quality bullet like BURGER have more of a consistancy. My Dad also reloads .223 with RCBS dies but a single stage press he has no problem. He is using the comp dies and I am using the cheap green box dies maybe that is my problem?

Could I be setting my dies up worng YES it is possible but I have re set them up 4 times and twice will watching the RCBS video on how to set them up so I really hope Im not screwing up there

I just wanted to say sorry to anyone who had a hard time reading my post due to my grammar im am not the best when it comes to words.

thanks for the input everyone

armedtotheteeth · January 31, 2009, 10:02 AM

yup, as tcomer said.
The seating die doesnt give a poop about where the tip is. It seats on the ogive. The are not all the same. Luckily though, all of your bullets should have very near the same ogive length, which is the important part. Dont expect great accuracy from those bullets by the way. Best i saw was about 1.5 inches at 100. A look into 55 Grain Hornady Vmaxs might be worth your while for any serious shooting. They are a little more, but not bad. They work for hunting pretty good too.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · January 31, 2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

He's not setting up his dies correctly...kind of like his grammar!

He is not CORRECTLY setting his dies. Your grammar was off a little ,too. Adverbs should be used next to the verb they are describing. They should not be split up by the other words in the sentence!

MARTY9 · January 31, 2009, 10:44 AM

Alleykat you are an idiot. This is not a grammar forum.

PCJim · January 31, 2009, 11:29 AM

M79, I'm not familiar with your press and am wondering if it could be giving that minor variance. For instance, if you have your shellplate fully loaded with equal pressure being applied equally around the plate for some of your loads, and only a single round being loaded with no others on the press at other times, this MIGHT give some variance.

I also agree that the Win Bulk 55gr FMJBT is an inexpensive bullet, fun to plink with but not consistent in it's dimensions which will cause variances like what you are describing.

Another thought - since your father has a single stage press, have him try to load some of your Win bulk bullets, and maybe with your bullet seating die. It may help to single out what the problem is - bullet dimension variable, bullet seating die, your press, or other.

Lastly, this isn't the National Scholastic English Teacher's forum. I sometimes too will forget a comma or period, and will make other mistakes. Hey, I'm just human. If the comments bother you, you might use the preview button and proof read your posts before submitting them. I personally did not have a problem with your posts....

wncchester · January 31, 2009, 11:51 AM

Ref. the web grammer/spelling/typing police; I've wondered if they are the same prissy kids who used to suck up to the teacher so they could be appointed class or hall "monitors" at elementry school. ???

Today's knowledge base is a product of the "modern" liberals in control of our kid's education. If folks don't know all they should, it isn't really their fault, our ed. system has failed them by working much more on liberal social enginnering theories than real learning. BO and the NEA, etc, say we just haven't funneled enough money into the system's rat holes yet, so he's going to "fix" that, soon.

I think it can be shown that our ed. system has more money now than it can spend intelligently. They just blow it on frills and experiments instead of education. Laying on more money won't change that, someone has to hold the adminstrators accountable in some serious way before education really improves. But, our leading "educators" are part of the gov. bureaucracy so don't hold your breath waiting for any accountablity that means anything to occur.

barryhud · January 31, 2009, 12:00 PM

Ditto Wnnchester

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · January 31, 2009, 03:18 PM

huked on foniks wurked fur mee!!!

amamnn · January 31, 2009, 04:50 PM

Anyone who has actually disassembled a standard bullet seating die, and who has a bullet comparator, knows that the die's seating stem does not necessarily index on the datum lie of the ogive, nor on the tip of the bullet, but somewhere in between. The die maker has no clue as to what ogive bullet you'll be using. Additionally, the difference in tip to base bullet length or even ogive to base can be quite a bit when using non-premium bullets.

If you measure your case length and make them all the same, and measure the bullets' base to ogive length, and cull bullets grossly over and/or under the median (not the average) measure, you'll have a uniform batch of cartridges.

M79 · February 1, 2009, 12:35 AM

OK guys thanks for all the great information this post has really given me some more avenues to go down. I will be trying all the suggestions inclucing loading on my Dad's press. Thank you all very much for the Help I wil take what I have learned and put my dies to the test this week.

Happy Shooting To all
Brandon

hardhit · February 1, 2009, 01:48 AM

Your bullets are cores of the varying AOL,
get your self a bullet comparator this will help but you are still going to get the variations in bullet profile but the comparator will allow you to measure more accurately, as said earlier the only way to correct this is to adjust your die up & down with each round I have comp dies with micrometer adjustment which make’s this step a little easer.

**Unclenick** · February 1, 2009, 01:49 AM

In case there is confusion, I'll post my old bullet parts drawing below. I think you'll find that if you sort the Winchester bullets by weight there will be groupings around more than one number, indicating the bullets are a mixture of the output of several sets of tooling that are making them. That means not only bullet length variation, but even the ogives the seating dies push against are not exactly identical. As the others explained, the seater pushing on the ogive leaves the bullet tip to add or subtract its individual length difference from your average COL measurement.

bullspotter · February 3, 2009, 02:10 AM

I have the same issue with my winchester bullets, ogive is not real acurate on them causing diff oal. Also if the seating die is full of crud, it will make it worse, make sure the die is clean. I also reload with 50 grain vmax and 50 grain ballistic tips, with the same press and dies, and those are almost spot on as far as oal. They are much better bullets.

Alleykat · February 3, 2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Alleykat you are an idiot. This is not a grammar forum.

Could be I am an idiot. Didn't intend for my "tease" post to be taken seriously. Being the idiot that I am, though, I've done a pretty good job of reloading the over 200k rounds that I've loaded so far. I even know how to set up my dies!

Striker1 · February 3, 2009, 08:26 PM

Sometimes it ain't what you know its how you say it.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 3, 2009, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Being the idiot that I am, though, I've done a pretty good job of reloading the over 200k rounds that I've loaded so far. I even know how to set up my dies!

It is hard to sense sarcasm through typed words. And by the way, I know a lot of idiots that have only one skill in life....yours is reloading!

Sense the sarcasm???

January 31, 2009, 01:08 AM	#1
M79 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 4	C.O.A.L problems .223 HELP I am loading .223 for my AR-15 and have run into a problem. My Cartridge Over All Length is inconsistent here is my load data: Brass: Winchester Primer: Winchester Bullets: Winchester FMJ 55 grain Powder: Win 748 Trimming case to: 1.753 Over all cartridge length: 2.260 NO crimp Here is how my loads are coming out this is the Cartridge over all length Im getting a range of: 2.212 - 2.232 ( many variations out of 30 loads to this point ) There does not seem to be a deciding factor as to why this is happening all my cases are trimmed the same and all my primers are pushed all the way into the pocket. The only thing I have found is my cheap Win 55 grain bullets are not all the same length but I don't see how this would effect the over all case cartridge length? I am really confused and am hopping some one here can shed some light on this for me. Im starting to think I have a bad die set? Thanks Brandon I have loaded

January 31, 2009, 09:07 AM	#4
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	I would think that if you get something like a Sinclair bullet comparator you will see a more consistent COAL as it measures off the ogive. Your would need to allow for the difference between the ogive measurement and the tip measurement. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

January 31, 2009, 03:18 PM	#13
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	huked on foniks wurked fur mee!!! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

January 31, 2009, 04:50 PM	#14
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Anyone who has actually disassembled a standard bullet seating die, and who has a bullet comparator, knows that the die's seating stem does not necessarily index on the datum lie of the ogive, nor on the tip of the bullet, but somewhere in between. The die maker has no clue as to what ogive bullet you'll be using. Additionally, the difference in tip to base bullet length or even ogive to base can be quite a bit when using non-premium bullets. If you measure your case length and make them all the same, and measure the bullets' base to ogive length, and cull bullets grossly over and/or under the median (not the average) measure, you'll have a uniform batch of cartridges. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

February 1, 2009, 01:49 AM	#17
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	In case there is confusion, I'll post my old bullet parts drawing below. I think you'll find that if you sort the Winchester bullets by weight there will be groupings around more than one number, indicating the bullets are a mixture of the output of several sets of tooling that are making them. That means not only bullet length variation, but even the ogives the seating dies push against are not exactly identical. As the others explained, the seater pushing on the ogive leaves the bullet tip to add or subtract its individual length difference from your average COL measurement. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 31, 2009, 01:32 AM	#2
robctwo Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2002 Location: Albany, Oregon Posts: 644	What press are you loading these on? What dies are you using?

January 31, 2009, 08:39 AM	#3
tkcomer Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2006 Location: Maysville, KY Posts: 200	Your seating die seats the bullet on the ogive, or the curvature of the bullet. Not the nose of it. Those Winchester FMJs are all over the map for that. Been there, done that. Not much you can do unless you want to adjust your seater die on each individual bullet. Just load and go. As long as you're not over the maximum length, you should be good to go.

January 31, 2009, 09:47 AM	#6
M79 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 4	Im using a RCBS PRO 2000 with RCBS dies. I have reloaded pistol for many years but this is my first attempt in loading rifle. As for the Ogive my would a more quality bullet like BURGER have more of a consistancy. My Dad also reloads .223 with RCBS dies but a single stage press he has no problem. He is using the comp dies and I am using the cheap green box dies maybe that is my problem? Could I be setting my dies up worng YES it is possible but I have re set them up 4 times and twice will watching the RCBS video on how to set them up so I really hope Im not screwing up there I just wanted to say sorry to anyone who had a hard time reading my post due to my grammar im am not the best when it comes to words. thanks for the input everyone

January 31, 2009, 10:02 AM	#7
armedtotheteeth Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Location: podunk, Texas Posts: 1,610	yup, as tcomer said. The seating die doesnt give a poop about where the tip is. It seats on the ogive. The are not all the same. Luckily though, all of your bullets should have very near the same ogive length, which is the important part. Dont expect great accuracy from those bullets by the way. Best i saw was about 1.5 inches at 100. A look into 55 Grain Hornady Vmaxs might be worth your while for any serious shooting. They are a little more, but not bad. They work for hunting pretty good too.

January 31, 2009, 10:44 AM	#9
MARTY9 Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Posts: 8	Alleykat you are an idiot. This is not a grammar forum.

January 31, 2009, 11:29 AM	#10
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	M79, I'm not familiar with your press and am wondering if it could be giving that minor variance. For instance, if you have your shellplate fully loaded with equal pressure being applied equally around the plate for some of your loads, and only a single round being loaded with no others on the press at other times, this MIGHT give some variance. I also agree that the Win Bulk 55gr FMJBT is an inexpensive bullet, fun to plink with but not consistent in it's dimensions which will cause variances like what you are describing. Another thought - since your father has a single stage press, have him try to load some of your Win bulk bullets, and maybe with your bullet seating die. It may help to single out what the problem is - bullet dimension variable, bullet seating die, your press, or other. Lastly, this isn't the National Scholastic English Teacher's forum. I sometimes too will forget a comma or period, and will make other mistakes. Hey, I'm just human. If the comments bother you, you might use the preview button and proof read your posts before submitting them. I personally did not have a problem with your posts....

January 31, 2009, 11:51 AM	#11
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Ref. the web grammer/spelling/typing police; I've wondered if they are the same prissy kids who used to suck up to the teacher so they could be appointed class or hall "monitors" at elementry school. ??? Today's knowledge base is a product of the "modern" liberals in control of our kid's education. If folks don't know all they should, it isn't really their fault, our ed. system has failed them by working much more on liberal social enginnering theories than real learning. BO and the NEA, etc, say we just haven't funneled enough money into the system's rat holes yet, so he's going to "fix" that, soon. I think it can be shown that our ed. system has more money now than it can spend intelligently. They just blow it on frills and experiments instead of education. Laying on more money won't change that, someone has to hold the adminstrators accountable in some serious way before education really improves. But, our leading "educators" are part of the gov. bureaucracy so don't hold your breath waiting for any accountablity that means anything to occur.

January 31, 2009, 12:00 PM	#12
barryhud Member Join Date: September 7, 2007 Location: Southeast Oklahoma Posts: 85	Ditto Wnnchester

February 1, 2009, 12:35 AM	#15
M79 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2009 Posts: 4	OK guys thanks for all the great information this post has really given me some more avenues to go down. I will be trying all the suggestions inclucing loading on my Dad's press. Thank you all very much for the Help I wil take what I have learned and put my dies to the test this week. Happy Shooting To all Brandon

February 1, 2009, 01:48 AM	#16
hardhit Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2008 Posts: 343	Your bullets are cores of the varying AOL, get your self a bullet comparator this will help but you are still going to get the variations in bullet profile but the comparator will allow you to measure more accurately, as said earlier the only way to correct this is to adjust your die up & down with each round I have comp dies with micrometer adjustment which make’s this step a little easer.

February 3, 2009, 02:10 AM	#18
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	I have the same issue with my winchester bullets, ogive is not real acurate on them causing diff oal. Also if the seating die is full of crud, it will make it worse, make sure the die is clean. I also reload with 50 grain vmax and 50 grain ballistic tips, with the same press and dies, and those are almost spot on as far as oal. They are much better bullets.

February 3, 2009, 08:26 PM	#20
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Sometimes it ain't what you know its how you say it.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search