The Law of Stupids

Moonglum · June 7, 2021, 12:04 AM

Don't go to Stupid Places
With Stupid people (or where stupid people congregate)
To do Stupid things
At stupid times

So the other night in Colorado Springs someone got car jacked in a 7-11 in a known high crime neighborhood. One of the news channels reported it on Facebeast and 10 or 12 people responded something like "That's why I always take my gun when I go there." While I'm reading this I'm thinking "If it's so bad you make a point of bringing your gun there why are you going?"

Unless I'm going somewhere where I am legally prohibited from even having a gun in my car (Military Installations/State prisons and the like) I do not leave my home unarmed. Still armed or not there are places I don't go.

There's an area downtown that is literally nothing but bars/nightspots for 6 or 8 blocks. Each bar by itself isn't bad but if you put that many drunk people in that small of an area there are bound to be problems. There are fights and shootings pretty much every weekend. I don't have any reason to go there so I don't.

I used to be a late nighter until I got to work nights downtown for 4 or 5 years and I got to see what crawled out of the sewers after dark. I've read some postings on other forums by a guy who has 20+ years experience in the criminal justice system who says that your chances of being involved in a homicide sky rocket if you're outside your home after 9 pm. I won't say that I won't be out after 9 but my lifestyle rarely requires it.

So my question is how much of a part does avoidance play in your over all self defense strategy?

eflyguy · June 7, 2021, 02:32 AM

Abso-freakin'-lutely, wherever possible!

We had a big celebratory meal at a top restaurant just before Christmas. It's in a very sketchy part of town and their online info re: parking suggested we might have to a walk a little. There were 7 of us (I have the only vehicle that could carry us all.)

Every one of us, except my ex., was carrying - she had a little "dinner" purse, and felt we had her covered!

Moonglum · June 7, 2021, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eflyguy

Abso-freakin'-lutely, wherever possible!

We had a big celebratory meal at a top restaurant just before Christmas. It's in a very sketchy part of town and their online info re: parking suggested we might have to a walk a little. There were 7 of us (I have the only vehicle that could carry us all.)

Every one of us, except my ex., was carrying - she had a little "dinner" purse, and felt we had her covered!

I think you're missing my point

Double Naught Spy · June 7, 2021, 04:24 AM

Quote:

While I'm reading this I'm thinking "If it's so bad you make a point of bringing your gun there why are you going?"

Unless I'm going somewhere where I am legally prohibited from even having a gun in my car (Military Installations/State prisons and the like) I do not leave my home unarmed.

Moonglum, that is some funny logic right there. You question why people would go to a neighborhood where they feel they need a gun, but then report that you don't leave the house without a gun. If you feel you need a gun to leave the house, why are you leaving? Better yet, why do you live in a place where you feel you need a gun when you leave your house?

Of course some people happen to live in bad neighborhoods and they don't have a real viable choice in the matter or the ability to change their situation. People are going to go to the 7-11s in those bad neighborhoods, grocery stores, etc. and conduct their lives as they would if they lived in "good" neighborhoods.

Also, your criminal justice guru, you gotta get us a citation for his work! He apparently has chrono-geographic data that nobody else has on homicides. So your chances of homicide skyrocket outside the home after 9 pm? Wow. Since you know this, why would you EVER go out after 9 pm? You question why people would go armed to a "bad neighborhood," so then why would you ever go out after 9 pm if your chances of being involved in a homicide sky rocket? That would just be stupid, according the the law of stupids you mention.

And by "sky rocket," does that mean your chances of being in a homicide maybe double? So maybe they go from 4 in 100,000 to 8 in 100,000 over the course of a year? The national average is a whopping 6 in 100,000.
https://crim.sas.upenn.edu/fact-chec...omicide-victim Is this the sort of drastic statistic basis on which you are going to modify your way of life?

Did the guru also mention that your chance of being murdered by a stranger are less than being murdered by somebody known to you and commonly it is a spouse, family member, or roommate? If we are using stats, you really should be carrying at home as much as you are carrying away from home because the biggest threat isn't from strangers.

Chances are, if you are the victim of a murder-suicide, it will be at home...
https://phys.org/news/2012-03-year-p...tionships.html

If you are involved in a mass shooting, it will be at home...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...se/7465616002/

In 2017, the FBI reports that in the cases where they can establish a relationship status between victim and murderer, less than 20% were killed by strangers. 56% were killed by people known by the victim other than family members and nearly 25% were killed by family members. There seems to be a lot of danger that isn't from just those bad neighborhoods. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...anded-homicide Never mind the amount of domestic violence (>60% known, thought to be much higher) that happens at home. https://safeatworkcoalition.org/dv/f...pen%20everyday. It should come as no surprise that 100% of the home invasions happen in, you guessed it, the home. Did the criminal justice guru cover these dangers?

So should you carry a gun at home? A lot of bad things happen to people at home and it would seem prudent to be armed at home, right? But getting back to your query, if you feel like you need to be armed at home, then why are you at home???? Home is a very stupid place to be.

I know, it is very bothersome to suggest that so much danger isn't from stranger danger or to suggest that our homes are not fortitude of safety castles, but if you are going to put stock into such fear mongering based on statistics, then you can't just cherry pick the statistics away from home.

Carl the Floor Walker · June 7, 2021, 04:36 AM

I seem to remember a chart of statistics that said. Most gunfights occur in low light conditions. And that was a chart from more than 10 years ago. For myself, it was more than just a statistic. It is a warning to not go out after dark if possible. Now more than ever.
Part of situational awareness. Like do not go swimming if there is a rip tide. Or play golf when a lighting storm is about to come. There are certain areas in my City, I warn my family to not even drive through.
I am a nature lover, spend all year hiking through the woods and love to study the Whitetail deer. I have always told my son. Be the WISE OLD BUCK. The one that is on guard all the time. He Avoids places of trouble, he is always alert and uses his instincts that God gave him. His main predator is humans, and a lot of them and they want to kill him. His defense his not his antlers, it is his wit and his discipline to constantly use his defenses. He uses situational awareness 24/7.

Moonglum · June 7, 2021, 07:15 AM

Deleted as irrelevant.

My apologies

HiBC · June 7, 2021, 07:28 AM

We'd like to think we can find the means to control our fate and safety.
"If only I make all the right choices...."
Control is an illusion.
Mass shootings have occurred in schools, churches,and a Boulder,Colorado grocery store.

But,yes,we can up the odds. If I'm thinking "I won't go to that seedy (bar,area,park, "peaceful protest etc) without my gun,but I will go WTTH my gun... well,suit yourself. I might miss that one.

I figure I can make wise choices AND be armed.

Bad can find you anyplace.

And occasionally I enjoy a frosty brew in some seedy dive bar. It might even have ( gasp) H-D motorcycles out front! And if I make the choice to consume alcohol, The gun goes in the lock box.

Life is not risk free.

BarryLee · June 7, 2021, 08:08 AM

I can't argue with the issue you have with buying gas in sketchy areas. However, often times sketchy areas butt up against more desirable areas. In urban areas the art museum my be a few blocks from a bar district, an upscale shopping area may border a transitional housing area or the local red light district may be near nice dining establishments.

So, again, I agree with being smart and avoiding high risk areas whenever possible. However, I also refuse to allow criminals to keep me from enjoying life.

Moonglum · June 7, 2021, 09:19 AM

When I first started carrying a handgun I had no idea that any such thing as professional training like gunsite even existed. I assumed that any training that did exist would be like BRM in the Army.

I decided to look on the internet for some kind of information and I found THR. THR exposed me to trainers like Massad Ayoob and Tamara Keel and Kathy Jackson (who used to participate here). They led me to other trainers and people who were/are considered to be experts in the field.

Almost across the board all of them advocate(d) never leaving home unarmed unless you had no option.
So, while I do take their advice and make it a habit never to leave my home unarmed I also balance that with the concept that I avoid any place I deem to be higher than normal risk. IE "if you wouldn't go without a gun you shouldn't go with one." some people understand that concept.

The particular 7-11 I mentioned (there was another gang related shooting in the apartments behind it last night) I used to get gas there all the time. I haven't been there in 20 years. I used to deliver pizzas to the apartments that had the shooting.(talk about askingfor trouble) When I did, I never got out of the car with any more cash on me than exact change for a twenty.

I realize that you can do all of that and still walk out your front door and right into the middle of an attempted robbery (guess how I know).

What I'm trying to say is while I try not to live my life in fear I also try not to take needless unnecessary risks. I've done Security in this town for 12 years I know where the really funky neighborhoods are and I stay out of them. I don't hang out in the bar district because I used to work down there and I watched the fights start at around 10PM every night. I watched the reports of sexual assault start about that time every night too. I watched the police activity increase and I decided not to go there on my days off.

gwpercle · June 7, 2021, 09:59 AM

I like to "avoid" as much as possible .
No place is really "safe" but a lot of places are "safer" than others .

Do the best you can and as my wise old Daddy would say...
... " Boy , don't go acting the fool !"
Gary

FireForged · June 7, 2021, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Don't go to Stupid Places
With Stupid people (or where stupid people congregate)
To do Stupid things
At stupid times

lets be realistic. We all understand the basic premise but this is seemingly more about sounding nifty than it is about being practical.

If you have a desire to go some place, you are probably not going to be the one who thinks its stupid. The people who think its stupid never have to worry about going there. Places are not often "stupid" until they are.

The same can be said for "stupid" people. Most people hang around and spend time with people very close to their own level of intellect and status. Very few people consider themselves "stupid".

Stupid things and stupid times, remains to be seen. Neither are often considered stupid until its too late.

I consider it more practical to simply say.. avoid trouble, conflict and those who seek it. We all have a pretty good idea of where to find trouble in our particular environment and we all know people ( or at least recognize) those who seek trouble.

I simply mind my own business, stick to my personal mission of the day and only spend time with people who enrich, challenge and motivate me through their example. I have no desire to be around groups of people or the public at large. I prefer to simply be at home .

ojibweindian · June 7, 2021, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonglum

Don't go to Stupid Places
With Stupid people (or where stupid people congregate)
To do Stupid things
At stupid times

So the other night in Colorado Springs someone got car jacked in a 7-11 in a known high crime neighborhood. One of the news channels reported it on Facebeast and 10 or 12 people responded something like "That's why I always take my gun when I go there." While I'm reading this I'm thinking "If it's so bad you make a point of bringing your gun there why are you going?"

Unless I'm going somewhere where I am legally prohibited from even having a gun in my car (Military Installations/State prisons and the like) I do not leave my home unarmed. Still armed or not there are places I don't go.

There's an area downtown that is literally nothing but bars/nightspots for 6 or 8 blocks. Each bar by itself isn't bad but if you put that many drunk people in that small of an area there are bound to be problems. There are fights and shootings pretty much every weekend. I don't have any reason to go there so I don't.

I used to be a late nighter until I got to work nights downtown for 4 or 5 years and I got to see what crawled out of the sewers after dark. I've read some postings on other forums by a guy who has 20+ years experience in the criminal justice system who says that your chances of being involved in a homicide sky rocket if you're outside your home after 9 pm. I won't say that I won't be out after 9 but my lifestyle rarely requires it.

So my question is how much of a part does avoidance play in your over all self defense strategy?

95%, or thereabouts.

FireForged · June 7, 2021, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Be the WISE OLD BUCK. The one that is on guard all the time. He Avoids places of trouble, he is always alert and uses his instincts that God gave him. His main predator is humans, and a lot of them and they want to kill him. His defense his not his antlers, it is his wit and his discipline to constantly use his defenses. He uses situational awareness 24/7.

Situational awareness is much about discernment, critical thinking, training, knowledge and experience. I dont think the buck is discerning much of anything. You can spook one with a stone, noise or anything out of the ordinary. Its not likely about awareness as I seriously doubt they are aware or cognizant of much.

Should people pay attention to their surroundings? Sure.

Carl the Floor Walker · June 7, 2021, 08:56 PM

Lol, I could probably write a few pages on just how cognizant they can be.and they can discern a lot more than you may think They do not live to be old by being stupid or shear luck. And you cannot always just scare one out with a stone etc. On the contrary. I have seen dogs jump them and the buck just stay motionless for example as the dogs go after the does.
Besides, my son has spent enough years in the field with me, and he gets the point.
Regardless of the Old Buck, I think you may have missed essence of what I was trying to convey about situational awareness and using your instincts. Maybe another thread on the Whitetail Behavior would be nice.

NobodyJones · June 8, 2021, 01:12 AM

I do my best to avoid high probability of danger areas. I am always armed when out in public. But my primary plan is avoidance of trouble. If we are somewhere and it feels hinky we may leave. I quit going to the malls in the neighboring city because of runaway violence. It isn't fear that motivates my actions it is the desire to avoid trouble.

jackstrawIII · June 9, 2021, 01:07 PM

Quote:

how much of a part does avoidance play in your over all self defense strategy

About 99%.

I've always thought, "If I lived in an area where I needed to carry a gun at home/work/church... I'd move."

**Aguila Blanca** · June 9, 2021, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackstrawIII

I've always thought, "If I lived in an area where I needed to carry a gun at home/work/church... I'd move."

Dr. William Petit and his family lived where people don't need to carry guns at home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshi...vasion_murders

HiBC · June 9, 2021, 04:28 PM

But what percentage of the shootings happen at home.work,or church or school,
,or other supposed "safe and civilized" target rich environments?

True,there are hostile environments, but they are not necessarily identified by your favorite fear.

Sharkbite · June 9, 2021, 06:03 PM

Man…id love to have the crystal ball that tells me where/when im going to be attacked and need my pistol. If i had one of those..i would avoid that place.

Since i dont have that ability… i carry everywhere i can.

FireForged · June 9, 2021, 07:37 PM

Quote:

They do not live to be old by being stupid or shear luck

Firstly, there is no such thing as luck

Secondly, simply having a hyper sense of smell and flight drive is not the same as being smart.

I have watched them do phenomenally hazardous things for no good reason. These are certainly NOT smart animals in my estimation.

I would say that the ones that live long, live long as a result of happenstance, not cunning.

Double Naught Spy · June 9, 2021, 08:29 PM

So much poor understanding of animal behavior. Just because you don't understand why it does something does not mean it is for "no good reason."

KEYBEAR · June 10, 2021, 10:45 AM

Four or Five years ago a small town gun shop was broke into by three kids in the teens . They took 4/5 new Kimber 45 acp ( now stupid happen) . The boys take the firearms to Chicago to sell a little over 100 miles from home . They go too the south West part of Chicago at night (never Been in Chicago) lots of buyers . Bottom line the guns are gone no money was paid and the boys got out of town alive .

Pistoler0 · June 10, 2021, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Dr. William Petit and his family lived where people don't need to carry guns at home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshi...vasion_murders

What a nightmarish story!

But how do you prepare for something like that? Dr. Petit was asleep on the couch when the perps walked in.

Counting on having access to a firearm is not enough, I am starting to realize that since I began to carry a firearm I have neglected hand to hand self defense/combat and martial arts. <<cue in Brit to chime in

he'd probably agree >>

Time to start hitting the weight room again and to find a good BJJ gym.

stinkeypete · June 10, 2021, 05:29 PM

If you mean that opportunity awaits the prepared mind, I agree.

Flip a coin. It’s going to be tails. I told you. How did I know?
There is luck, and it seems god loves a drunk.

Moonglum · June 10, 2021, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistoler0

But how do you prepare for something like that? Dr. Petit was asleep on the couch when the perps walked in.

You could start by LOCKING YOUR DAMN DOOR!!!!

June 7, 2021, 12:04 AM	#1
Moonglum Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2015 Posts: 468	The Law of Stupids Don't go to Stupid Places With Stupid people (or where stupid people congregate) To do Stupid things At stupid times So the other night in Colorado Springs someone got car jacked in a 7-11 in a known high crime neighborhood. One of the news channels reported it on Facebeast and 10 or 12 people responded something like "That's why I always take my gun when I go there." While I'm reading this I'm thinking "If it's so bad you make a point of bringing your gun there why are you going?" Unless I'm going somewhere where I am legally prohibited from even having a gun in my car (Military Installations/State prisons and the like) I do not leave my home unarmed. Still armed or not there are places I don't go. There's an area downtown that is literally nothing but bars/nightspots for 6 or 8 blocks. Each bar by itself isn't bad but if you put that many drunk people in that small of an area there are bound to be problems. There are fights and shootings pretty much every weekend. I don't have any reason to go there so I don't. I used to be a late nighter until I got to work nights downtown for 4 or 5 years and I got to see what crawled out of the sewers after dark. I've read some postings on other forums by a guy who has 20+ years experience in the criminal justice system who says that your chances of being involved in a homicide sky rocket if you're outside your home after 9 pm. I won't say that I won't be out after 9 but my lifestyle rarely requires it. So my question is how much of a part does avoidance play in your over all self defense strategy? __________________ Skating On Thin Ice

June 7, 2021, 04:36 AM	#5
Carl the Floor Walker member Join Date: June 3, 2017 Location: South Posts: 1,422	I seem to remember a chart of statistics that said. Most gunfights occur in low light conditions. And that was a chart from more than 10 years ago. For myself, it was more than just a statistic. It is a warning to not go out after dark if possible. Now more than ever. Part of situational awareness. Like do not go swimming if there is a rip tide. Or play golf when a lighting storm is about to come. There are certain areas in my City, I warn my family to not even drive through. I am a nature lover, spend all year hiking through the woods and love to study the Whitetail deer. I have always told my son. Be the WISE OLD BUCK. The one that is on guard all the time. He Avoids places of trouble, he is always alert and uses his instincts that God gave him. His main predator is humans, and a lot of them and they want to kill him. His defense his not his antlers, it is his wit and his discipline to constantly use his defenses. He uses situational awareness 24/7. Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; June 7, 2021 at 05:00 AM.

June 7, 2021, 07:15 AM	#6
Moonglum Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2015 Posts: 468	Deleted as irrelevant. My apologies __________________ Skating On Thin Ice Last edited by Moonglum; June 7, 2021 at 08:18 AM.

June 7, 2021, 07:28 AM	#7
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	We'd like to think we can find the means to control our fate and safety. "If only I make all the right choices...." Control is an illusion. Mass shootings have occurred in schools, churches,and a Boulder,Colorado grocery store. But,yes,we can up the odds. If I'm thinking "I won't go to that seedy (bar,area,park, "peaceful protest etc) without my gun,but I will go WTTH my gun... well,suit yourself. I might miss that one. I figure I can make wise choices AND be armed. Bad can find you anyplace. And occasionally I enjoy a frosty brew in some seedy dive bar. It might even have ( gasp) H-D motorcycles out front! And if I make the choice to consume alcohol, The gun goes in the lock box. Life is not risk free. Last edited by HiBC; June 7, 2021 at 07:38 AM.

June 7, 2021, 08:08 AM	#8
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	I can't argue with the issue you have with buying gas in sketchy areas. However, often times sketchy areas butt up against more desirable areas. In urban areas the art museum my be a few blocks from a bar district, an upscale shopping area may border a transitional housing area or the local red light district may be near nice dining establishments. So, again, I agree with being smart and avoiding high risk areas whenever possible. However, I also refuse to allow criminals to keep me from enjoying life. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

June 7, 2021, 02:32 AM	#2
eflyguy Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2021 Posts: 335	Abso-freakin'-lutely, wherever possible! We had a big celebratory meal at a top restaurant just before Christmas. It's in a very sketchy part of town and their online info re: parking suggested we might have to a walk a little. There were 7 of us (I have the only vehicle that could carry us all.) Every one of us, except my ex., was carrying - she had a little "dinner" purse, and felt we had her covered!

June 7, 2021, 09:19 AM	#9
Moonglum Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2015 Posts: 468	When I first started carrying a handgun I had no idea that any such thing as professional training like gunsite even existed. I assumed that any training that did exist would be like BRM in the Army. I decided to look on the internet for some kind of information and I found THR. THR exposed me to trainers like Massad Ayoob and Tamara Keel and Kathy Jackson (who used to participate here). They led me to other trainers and people who were/are considered to be experts in the field. Almost across the board all of them advocate(d) never leaving home unarmed unless you had no option. So, while I do take their advice and make it a habit never to leave my home unarmed I also balance that with the concept that I avoid any place I deem to be higher than normal risk. IE "if you wouldn't go without a gun you shouldn't go with one." some people understand that concept. The particular 7-11 I mentioned (there was another gang related shooting in the apartments behind it last night) I used to get gas there all the time. I haven't been there in 20 years. I used to deliver pizzas to the apartments that had the shooting.(talk about askingfor trouble) When I did, I never got out of the car with any more cash on me than exact change for a twenty. I realize that you can do all of that and still walk out your front door and right into the middle of an attempted robbery (guess how I know). What I'm trying to say is while I try not to live my life in fear I also try not to take needless unnecessary risks. I've done Security in this town for 12 years I know where the really funky neighborhoods are and I stay out of them. I don't hang out in the bar district because I used to work down there and I watched the fights start at around 10PM every night. I watched the reports of sexual assault start about that time every night too. I watched the police activity increase and I decided not to go there on my days off. __________________ Skating On Thin Ice

June 7, 2021, 09:59 AM	#10
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	I like to "avoid" as much as possible . No place is really "safe" but a lot of places are "safer" than others . Do the best you can and as my wise old Daddy would say... ... " Boy , don't go acting the fool !" Gary

June 7, 2021, 08:56 PM	#14
Carl the Floor Walker member Join Date: June 3, 2017 Location: South Posts: 1,422	Lol, I could probably write a few pages on just how cognizant they can be.and they can discern a lot more than you may think They do not live to be old by being stupid or shear luck. And you cannot always just scare one out with a stone etc. On the contrary. I have seen dogs jump them and the buck just stay motionless for example as the dogs go after the does. Besides, my son has spent enough years in the field with me, and he gets the point. Regardless of the Old Buck, I think you may have missed essence of what I was trying to convey about situational awareness and using your instincts. Maybe another thread on the Whitetail Behavior would be nice. Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; June 7, 2021 at 09:14 PM.

June 8, 2021, 01:12 AM	#15
NobodyJones Member Join Date: December 21, 2019 Posts: 64	I do my best to avoid high probability of danger areas. I am always armed when out in public. But my primary plan is avoidance of trouble. If we are somewhere and it feels hinky we may leave. I quit going to the malls in the neighboring city because of runaway violence. It isn't fear that motivates my actions it is the desire to avoid trouble.

June 9, 2021, 04:28 PM	#18
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	But what percentage of the shootings happen at home.work,or church or school, ,or other supposed "safe and civilized" target rich environments? True,there are hostile environments, but they are not necessarily identified by your favorite fear.

June 9, 2021, 06:03 PM	#19
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Man…id love to have the crystal ball that tells me where/when im going to be attacked and need my pistol. If i had one of those..i would avoid that place. Since i dont have that ability… i carry everywhere i can.

June 9, 2021, 08:29 PM	#21
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	So much poor understanding of animal behavior. Just because you don't understand why it does something does not mean it is for "no good reason." __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

June 10, 2021, 10:45 AM	#22
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	Four or Five years ago a small town gun shop was broke into by three kids in the teens . They took 4/5 new Kimber 45 acp ( now stupid happen) . The boys take the firearms to Chicago to sell a little over 100 miles from home . They go too the south West part of Chicago at night (never Been in Chicago) lots of buyers . Bottom line the guns are gone no money was paid and the boys got out of town alive .

June 10, 2021, 05:29 PM	#24
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,292	If you mean that opportunity awaits the prepared mind, I agree. Flip a coin. It’s going to be tails. I told you. How did I know? There is luck, and it seems god loves a drunk. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.