9mm v. grizzly

[Forte S+W]

It looks as though Federal is now offering their own Bear Defense load.

Apparently they're making a new line of ammo called Solid Core which is intended for Animal Defense.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I hate to start another bear pistol thread, but I just became aware of this story, which apparently happened earlier last fall, and the facts are a bit noteworthy.

Known and respected Alaskan guide for over 30 yrs, Phil Shoemaker was forced to shoot and kill a grizzly bear to protect himself and his clients while guiding a fishing trip. His handgun in this episode was a 9mm S&W 3954, loaded with Buffalo Bore 147 grain RNFP hardcast ammo. He likely fired 8 rds, obtained hits with all. There are at least two printed articles on the episode.

Shoemaker's the real deal, no tinhorn by all reports. I've read some of his stuff over the years, seems very well thought out. What lead him to carry the 9mm 'Smith would make for an interesting conversation. Likely has been around and in contact with bears as much or more than anybody. I wonder, would he carry it again? Is he still carrying it?

I personally can never get enough of the "bear vs pistol" threads : )

I think it has to do with the fact that I'd never look forward to having to employ my self defense firearm against a 2 legged critter, I pray I never in my life have to face that situation and have to answer to the Lord for it.

But a bear.... : )

[spacemanspiff]

I have no doubt that plenty more people will venture out into bear country armed with whatever gun they feel comfortable with, and most will never have to fire a shot. Good for them. More power to them. And if they should find themselves having to employ their weapon of choice, I wish them the best of luck. No matter if its a .500mag or a 9mm or a .22lr.

A bullet that will penetrate five feet of ballistic gel is likely adequate to penetrate the thick skull of a grizzly or brown bear. I suppose the fact that it took eight rounds is notable.

Look up videos on youtube of bears charging. If you feel confidant that you can land your shots on the bears skull as it bounces up and down while charging at you, by all means, go for it.

Bottom line, people who are forced to shoot bears and survive to tell the tale, are incredibly lucky.

[Double Naught Spy]

A bullet that will penetrate five feet of ballistic gel is likely adequate to penetrate the thick skull of a grizzly or brown bear

Bear skulls are not thick. Assuming people can actually hit the skull (as spacemandspiff alluded to above), hitting the brain may be a problem because the brain is toward the back. Of course, many folks think they have shot bears in the head only to have bears run off, not realizing that they have hit nothing but fur. Beyond that, from a frontal shot, the bullet may need to pass through the sinuses. The bone isn't particularly thick at all, but there are gaps between the inner and outer tables where the bullet may end up actually skirting the brain case, located farther back than some folks realize.

The amount of bone and the distance the bullet needs to travel would not be something that a .22 lr could not accomplish. There is really nothing terribly remarkable about a bear's skull.

[4V50 Gary]

9mm would not be my first choice, but I remember reading Iain Grahame's book, Jambo, Effendi! back in the '70s. Grahame was an officer in the King's African Rifles. One of his men used a Sten on a rhino and killed it. Most of us don't have selective fire weaponry to take on Griz though.

[tipoc]

I hate to start another bear pistol thread, but I just became aware of this story, which apparently happened earlier last fall, and the facts are a bit noteworthy.

Known and respected Alaskan guide for over 30 yrs, Phil Shoemaker was forced to shoot and kill a grizzly bear to protect himself and his clients while guiding a fishing trip. His handgun in this episode was a 9mm S&W 3954, loaded with Buffalo Bore 147 grain RNFP hardcast ammo. He likely fired 8 rds, obtained hits with all. There are at least two printed articles on the episode.

Shoemaker's the real deal, no tinhorn by all reports. I've read some of his stuff over the years, seems very well thought out. What lead him to carry the 9mm 'Smith would make for an interesting conversation. Likely has been around and in contact with bears as much or more than anybody. I wonder, would he carry it again? Is he still carrying it?

Someone missed the part of the story where Shoemaker explains that he brought the 9mm with him because it was not bear season and he did not expect to encounter any bear. They were headed to a fishing hole. He explained that had he anticipated bear, and this was a Black bear, he would have had a long gun with him and a more powerful sidearm.

tipoc

[chrisintexas]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

It looks as though Federal is now offering their own Bear Defense load.

Apparently they're making a new line of ammo called Solid Core which is intended for Animal Defense.

Link?

[Double Naught Spy]

Link?

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=federal+solid+...r+defense&pp=1

[tank1949]

I learned a long time ago the difference between "graveyard dead" and being mortally wounded. The mortally wounded animals can still kill you "graveyard dead." I once shot a big buck at about <50 feet twice with 10mm Glock/155 grain XTPs. Bullets went through deer and were just under skin on opposite side of entry. He ran about 50 feet before dying. I started reloading 155 FMJs . Hopefully, they would do more damage to a bear and the gun's 15 round capacity would keep me somewhat happy while running away from a charging bear. I'd prefer my M1 Garand for bears, which you can reload real quick under shear panic!!!!!!!!! Or better yet, my M1A's 20 round magazine would even be mo-gooder.

[bigboredad]

The choice of a 9mm is definitely odd until you see the choice of ammo. He didntnjust choose it load up and head out. He had been working with it and checking penetration. Also I believe he was above average when it comes to hitting where he wants. He probably has had that gun for several years practiced with it and was very comfortable with it. So I'm sure the average conceal carry Joe hasn't practiced as much as him and hasn't checked their carry ammo for penetration and by what I have seen at public ranges most people couldn't handle the buffalo bore ammo in 9mm not to mention the big bores.

Due to his time guiding I would think he has seen a few bears and to him the sight and proximity doesn't start the flow of pee like it would for the first time a client sees one, so I would believe he knew when it was time to shoot and was able to place the rounds where they needed to go.

The part about the clients putting their lives in his hands and expecting him to save them. That is so much bull ship it drives me crazy. We are the ones in charge of staying alive. In this case that means asking what he is going to carry on that trip. If they are not comfortable with his choice and the reasons for his choice it's up to YOU to say something if he won't take something else find some one elsewhere will but don't sit on your ass then hitch and whine you didn't know what he was going to carry. You are responsible for you know one else should have to hold your hand and make choices for you

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[tipoc]

My memory was off about the incident so I'm posting Shoemaker's account of the shooting which was written for American Rifleman of August 10, 2016.

Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs.

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...th-9mm-pistol/

Here also is a bit from Shoemakers letter to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore.

Two days ago I was guiding a couple from NY on a fishing trip and decided to pack my S&W 3954 pistol. When we were approaching the stream we bumped into a large boar who must have been sleeping as we were talking loud just so we wouldn't surprise one. Over the past 33 years I have lived and guided here on the Alaska peninsula I have never had to kill a bear in defense of life but this bear was different.

We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backward into the tall grass. The bear seemed to lose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us!

Scroll down here to see the letter.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=389


I did recall a main point correctly. Shoemaker took the DAO 3953 S&W 9mm because he incorrectly did not expect any issue with bears. He normally carries a Model 629 in 44 Magnum. He and his guests were, as he says, lucky that the bear they stumbled on was confused.

tipoc

[tipoc]

Here also is a link to a piece by Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore.

"'Stopping Bears' with Handgun or Rifle Cartridges"

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=108

It's a useful read.


tipoc

[JohnKSa]

Shoemaker took the DAO 3953 S&W 9mm because he incorrectly did not expect any issue with bears.

Well, sorta.

If he really hadn't expected "any issue" with bears, he wouldn't have carried a gun at all.

But he did take a gun. One loaded with ammo he had tested himself to insure it had sufficient penetration for bears because he knew there might be an issue with bears. He didn't take his normal handgun because he thought the probability of trouble with bears was lower on this trip than usual.

Had he KNOWN that he was going to have an issue with a bear, it seems likely he would have stayed home that day, taken his clients to another area, or carried a heavy rifle.

Had he thought that the probability of an issue with bears was normal, it sounds like he would have taken his normal sidearm.

[tipoc]

Read what he said in his own words. He did not anticipate that there would be high danger from the bears in the area. Had he expected, he says, that a sow with cubs would be there he would have taken his 629 Mountain Gun. But he did not expect that to be the case. He says they spoke in loud voices to give a bear warning they were in the area. He anticipated them backing off. He assumed, he says, that male bears would be there and that the potential danger was small and so took the 3953 loaded with the proper ammo for the job if needed which he did not think it would be. That's what he has said in more than one place.

He also tells us that he believed they stumbled on a sleeping bear that woke up confused. That is different from a bear that may have been stalking them. Had he anticipated being in an area with bears that charged or stalked them his handgun would have had his 629...so he says.

Shoemaker makes a distinction

This goes along with what Tim Sundles of BB says...

We make “Bear Loads” in Smaller Chamberings such as the following:

★ (Item 24F) -- 9MM +P+ PENETRATOR
★ (Item 24L) -- 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN
★ (Item 20H) -- 38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN
★ (Item 19A) -- HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN
★ (Item 23F) -- 40 S&W OUTDOORTSMAN Std Pressure Low Flash
★ (Item 21C) -- HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN

We do this because a lot of people own those guns and don’t want to buy a 454 Casull or 44 mag. I would have no problem defending myself against a black bear attack (and have done so) with the proper 9MM ammo. I prefer a more powerful/bigger cartridge, but the 9MM will get it done, even on grizzlies, if you take their brain with a flat nosed, non-expanding bullet. Of course, making a brain shot under such duress, will take practice and cool nerves.

So you can see that obviously a 9mm or 38 Spl. can work to defend yourself. Jeff Cooper used to say that if all you have to defend yourself against bear is a .357 then go with the right ammo and learn to use it. That's always been true.

But, as Sundles and Shoemaker say, if you have a choice take a more powerful gun and learn to use it.

tipoc

[JohnKSa]

I read it. You initially said he didn't expect "any issues" but that's not what he says, nor is it consistent with his carrying bear loads in his gun.

Originally Posted by tipoc

He did not anticipate that there would be high danger from the bears in the area.

Yes, this seems to be a more accurate assertion.

He says he knew there were many large boars in the area where they were going but said they were "less of a problem". "Less of a problem" is clearly not the same thing as no problem, but it would be pretty similar to saying that he felt the danger was lower than usual.

I don't think that there can be much serious debate about whether or not he expected bear issues when he was carrying a bear load in his gun. Clearly he recognized that there could be issues, he just thought that the probability of an issue was less than usual.

But, as Sundles and Shoemaker say, if you have a choice take a more powerful gun and learn to use it.

Shoemaker DID have a choice, and he chose to carry his 9mm given the circumstances.

[agtman]

What Phil the Fabulous actually said:

Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs.

So from past experience he was expecting large male bears to be there, whether "less of a problem than sows with cubs" or not.

So in a fishing location known for the presence of large bears, he decided to pull a reckless stunt with his clients' welfare and take a mini-meter pistol loaded with hardcast bullets in order to chance some sort of selfish 'field test' as to their likely effectiveness on an aggressive bear, rather than take a big-bore revolver that's proven its effectiveness multiple times.

He says he knew there were many large boars in the area where they were going but said they were "less of a problem". "Less of a problem" is clearly not the same thing as no problem, but it would be pretty similar to saying that he felt the danger was lower than usual.

Exactly.

[tipoc]

OK, so how'd it turn out?

Was the presence of bears "less of a problem"? It was in the sense that no bear stalked them or charged them. Had that been the case things very likely would have turned out worse. Shoemaker is an honest man so he tells us...

We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backward into the tall grass. The bear seemed to lose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated!

When the couple fell backward into the tall grass this gave Shoemaker the chance for a clear shot at the bear...

Before we reached the stream, while we were walking through dense brush and tall grass, we heard a growl and deep “woof” of a bear approximately 6 feet to our right (behind me in the secondary photo). We had been talking loudly but must have startled a sleeping bear. It sounded like it made a movement toward us, and I shouted loudly and the bear ran back through the brush to the right in the photo. Within 15 seconds, we could hear it growling and charging through the dense brush from the opposite side.

I had my pistol out by then, and the bear first appeared from where the photographer in photo No. 2 was standing. It went straight for my clients; Larry and his wife fell backwards in the deep grass. She said the bear’s face was close enough to hers that it could have bitten her!

The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

Had the couple not fallen back in the grass a clear shot was not presented and things may have been worse. That was luck. Together a lot of luck.

Now the bear being there and waking up could of happened anywhere no matter how many guns a person carried or what type. It was Shoemaker's experience and good sense that saved lives but also luck. The "little S&W" 3953 is an 8 round compact 9mm. Shoemaker had it loaded with good ammo. He is skilled with that gun and shooting that ammo.

The point here is that if anyone thinks the 9mm is a good round to carry against bear...it's not. Not enough gun. But if that's the only gun you can shoot well with accuracy and speed then make sure it has good ammo for the job and that you can shoot it well. Bring a pack full of luck as well, without that this story would have been different.


tipoc

[Lohman446]

If you are standing off against a charging bear things have gone drastically wrong already. I would prefer not to do it with anything even a 375 Holland and Holland rifle because the chance of missing, or even scoring a non immediate threat ending hit, is high. If I had my choice of pistols some behemoth pistol like the .500 S+W would be my choice. However I am never going to be in a position where I am planning on this happening and am going to use whatever I have on me. Am I going to go "all I have is a .22 so its not worth trying?" No. It would be ludicrous to do so. So if all I have is a 9MM on me so be it.

If you are intentionally creating a situation where you are shooting at a charging bear with a 9MM you are an idiot. I'm not sure the choice of firearm alleviates that point.

[agtman]

It was in the sense that no bear stalked them or charged them.Had that been the case things very likely would have turned out worse.

Extra points can be scored for demonstrating reading comprehension skills.

A "charge" or "charging" is exactly how Shoemaker himself characterized the bear's behavior.

Shoemaker is an honest man so he tells us...

His honesty was never in dispute. Stupidity of judgment, yes. But not his honesty.

[bill460]

Bullet placement is everything. That takes 2 things. Knowing WHERE to shoot. And knowing HOW to shoot. This guy knew and accomplished both. These stories are as common as the bears that absorbed 5 shots from a .375 H&H. Because they were shot in the feet, ass, and everywhere else they should not have been.

[tipoc]

Quote:
It was in the sense that no bear stalked them or charged them.Had that been the case things very likely would have turned out worse.
Extra points can be scored for demonstrating reading comprehension skills.

A "charge" or "charging" is exactly how Shoemaker himself characterized the bear's behavior.

You have a point here. I could have been clearer. Shoemaker says they were not being stalked by this bear nor was it a sow charging them to protect cubs. Neither was that bear waiting for them to approach so that it could charge. Shoemaker tells us what we need to know without shame of it, he thinks they came on a sleeping bear that they woke up and it's behavior was confused and it charged them. The point I was making is that the bear being confused or startled provided them a few seconds of time.

They did not come upon a bear defending it's cubs nor a bear hunting them. The story likely would have ended differently then.

By virtue of a lotta luck (good name for a stripper ain't it, Lotta Luck) they all survived. Too much luck was needed here.

I don't think Shoemaker is stupid either. I think he made a bad judgement call. Luck with good shooting and a good bullet saved them.

[44 AMP]

For as long as I'll probably remember anything, I'll remember a picture I saw or the lower leg of a hiker, stripped of flesh from the knee down to the tennis shoe, and an empty .38 snub nose pistol beside the body.

That bear was enormous, a brown (though today the Internet tells me browns and grizzlies are "the same bear") standing it could look into a second story window. Killed later by a ranger with several shots of 7mm magnum.

I think about everyone here agrees that a 9mm was not the best possible choice, but it worked for that guy, that day, and you know the saying, if it's stupid but it works, it ain't stupid....

We've spent several pages saying how stupid it was, but he's here, the people he was guiding that day are here, all unharmed and the bear ISN'T.

perhaps not the smartest thing, but not stupid.

[Carmady]

Ever heard the term, "dumb luck?"

[JohnKSa]

The point here is that if anyone thinks the 9mm is a good round to carry against bear...it's not. Not enough gun.

I would agree it's not a good choice for bear defense. However, it was clearly enough gun in this situation, and also it was enough gun for Garen Brenner when he killed the grizzly that charged him and his friend while they were fishing.

It's not what I would choose to carry, but there's no denying it can be enough gun--because it has been demonstrated more than once that it is.

Bring a pack full of luck as well, without that this story would have been different.

There's always an element of probability when you shoot a living animal. Ideally, you want to minimize that aspect of the situation because that's the unpredictable part. I think I would agree that both Brenner and Shoemaker got some help from luck.

<<Edit--Corrected Brenner's first name. My apologies to anyone who tried to find the incident using the incorrect first name.>>

[zoo]

Unlike situations involving human predators, I have no problem firing a round off in a "safe" direction to scare off a bear. In such cases, a 9mm is quite adequate. So is banging pots and pans.