Revisiting 1986 shootout - Interesting to see people with GSWs continue to fight - Page 3

**44 AMP** · November 29, 2013, 10:27 AM

Quote:

As said above, once the shooting starts, the where and why is irrelevant. It's just you, them, training, equipment, and dumb luck.

true enough, but there are things that matter, before the shooting starts. The bad guys in Miami murdered, or tried to, recreational shooters for their cars and guns, MORE THAN ONCE, and the FBI knew it.

They knew these guys were not just bank robbers, they were killers. Apparently, what they didn't know (or acted like they didn't know) was that these killers would just as happily kill LEOs as civilians.

I think the point is being brought up, not for its impact on the actions after the shooting started, but on the actions and decisions that led to the shooting, where, and when it did happen.

Also to warn readers not fully familiar with the incident. Not everyone who comes by, is friendly , talks guns & shooting with you when you are out plinking in a remote location turns out to be a friend.....

leadcounsel · November 29, 2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:

They knew these guys were not just bank robbers, they were killers. Apparently, what they didn't know (or acted like they didn't know) was that these killers would just as happily kill LEOs as civilians.

Thank you for backing up my point about the FBI training, tactics, and weapons. You can't control the actions of the other party, but the FBI could and should have wiped these guys clean had they used training and weapons available in 1986. Standoff with AR15s, Thompsons, MP5s, Shotgun slugs, Uzi's, etc. would have effectively ended this, likely with overwhelming numbers and weapons. Cover fire while the pinned agent(s) withdrew, then siege tactics or a coordinated flanking assault. These tactics go back centuries - and were likely known intimately by the agents with former military training or war experience.

Instead, rushing in with individual agents with 5 or 6 shot .38 revolvers was simply unacceptable, IMO, even for 1986, and particularly given the intelligence they had on these guys (hardened well-armed killers). Unnecessary, low success probability, and extremely high risk. These agents showed courage and resolve, but were also quite foolish.

Derbel McDillet · November 30, 2013, 08:54 AM

Quote:

The problem is that if the arm were pressed against the chest there would be no way the bullet could have taken the path that it did.

The evidence that Platt's upper arm was against his chest is the exit wound on the inside of arm. The wound is a simple hole and is created by the bullet crushing the skin as it exits. If Platt's upper arm was not in contact with the side of his chest then the exit wound would be much larger and there would be radial tears.

The autopsy photo shows the arm extended however the small exit wound, which matches the diameter of the entrance wound to the side of his chest, is evidence that his his arm was retracted and against his chest when the bullet exited his arm and penetrated his chest as he crawled out the passenger side window of the wrecked Monte Carlo.

jtmckinney · November 30, 2013, 10:13 AM

I only know what I do about this event reading the threads on this site when they come up so maybe what I am about to say has already been expressed.

Looking at the photo of the arm the bullet entered and traveled along the muscle. Probably not as much resistance to it's travel as crossways and maybe did not expand like it would have had it hit something more solid.

Even if the arm wasn't against the chest maybe the skin could have stretched enough to come into contact with the chest before the bullet penetrated the skin on the arm.

Xray shows an expanded bullet but maybe the bullet didn't expand much until it hit the muscle and cartilidge in the chest wall. Also the xray doesn't show any rib damage. Maybe there is some just outside of the xray view. If it went between the ribs that could also explain his ability to keep fighting for at least a few more minutes. A solid hit on a rib with the shock transferred to the spine might have stopped him right then.

I know, Lots of maybe's.

Have a great day!
James

Double Naught Spy · November 30, 2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

I say it does matter, especially to us.

They got some of those guns (the Mini-14 specifically) by murdering a recreational shooter who was out shooting somewhere in a secluded area enjoying himself.

Okay, you think it matters, but in the grand scheme, it really doesn't. When the shooting starts, it doesn't matter if the gun was procured legally or not. They are just tools regardless of provenance.

Did P&M expand their armory by robbing and shooting recreational shooters? Yep. Does this happen with any notable frequency? Nope. Does it happen with any notable frequency that the guns are then used by Special Forces-trained former US military types to rob banks? Nope.

P&M could have purchased more guns had they been so inclined. At the time of the recreational shooters being shot, neither P or M were precluded from purchasing firearms and were not known to be wanted by the law. There would have been nothing to stop them from purchasing the guns brand new and they could have had the exact same guns for the shootout that were purchased at a sporting goods store.

**JohnKSa** · November 30, 2013, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Even if the arm wasn't against the chest maybe the skin could have stretched enough to come into contact with the chest before the bullet penetrated the skin on the arm.

A very apt observation.

Quote:

The evidence that Platt's upper arm was against his chest is the exit wound on the inside of arm. The wound is a simple hole and is created by the bullet crushing the skin as it exits. If Platt's upper arm was not in contact with the side of his chest then the exit wound would be much larger and there would be radial tears.

The evidence that his arm was not against his chest is very clear and can not be dismissed. The inserted probe shows that there is a gap of 2.5" between the arm exit wound and the chest entrance wound and that the arm must be extended in order for the wound channels to line up.

So we have a contradiction? Not at all. Clearly his ARM was not in contact with his chest. But assuming your interpretation is correct, it does suggest that the SKIN of the upper arm did make contact with the chest before the bullet broke through.

Your interpretation of the wound appearance, in conjunction with the autopsy photograph showing the necessary gap, would mean that the bullet stretched the skin enough to bridge the gap and that the skin actually made contact with the chest before the bullet broke the skin. I'm about Platt's size and weight, and the skin on the inside of my upper arm will easily stretch 2.5".

That would make the exit sort of a cross between shored and unshored, I suppose. The bullet had to expend energy stretch the skin, but likely not as much as would have been required had the skin not come into contact with the chest before the bullet broke through.

Quote:

...his his arm was retracted and against his chest when the bullet exited his arm and penetrated his chest as he crawled out the passenger side window of the wrecked Monte Carlo.

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt from the autopsy photograph that the arm wasn't against his chest because the autopsy photos clearly show that the arm must be extended for the wound channels to line up.

If Platt's arm had been against his chest, that would have required the bullet to travel nearly parallel with the arm for about 5" and then turn and travel into the chest at nearly right angles to the arm after exiting the arm. That's obviously nonsense.

The whole point of the autopsy photo with the probe inserted is to align the wound channels to demonstrate the position of the arm at the time the bullet struck.

Sevens · November 30, 2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Okay, you think it matters, but in the grand scheme, it really doesn't.

It baffles me how my point is repeatedly lost... and worse, some think that I have some mysterious hidden "gun ban" agenda. For cryin' out loud, I have a history on this site -- I'm pro2a and active in my state level organization.

The discussions often ask "what can we learn from this event?" and with great vigor we discuss which calibers & loads did what matter of damage to the combatants, what the immediate results were, what the eventual results were, etc etc.

All I'm saying is that if you really want to learn something useful from this (and in the event you don't happen to be either LE or a bloody murderer & bank robber) then something you might consider taking away from the event is that you too could be murdered in a field for only one reason, that reason you happened to be out in that field having yourself a happy little range day and it made you a specific target for a pair of killers who wanted guns.

That's not likely to happen to you...
But it's probably more likely to happen to you than the chance of getting in to a wild, historic, epic big-city shootout.

But if this is simply a discussion of what a 9mm slug will do to a psychopath when it tears through his arm and subsequently enters his torso... that's fine. It is a discussion forum, afterall.

militant · November 30, 2013, 04:14 PM

I am surprised the 12 gauge didn't stop the fight.

Double Naught Spy · November 30, 2013, 06:54 PM

Quote:

The discussions often ask "what can we learn from this event?" and with great vigor we discuss which calibers & loads did what matter of damage to the combatants, what the immediate results were, what the eventual results were, etc etc.

Right, what can we learn from THE EVENT, and NOT what happened in the days or weeks BEFORE the event.

Quote:

All I'm saying is that if you really want to learn something useful from this (and in the event you don't happen to be either LE or a bloody murderer & bank robber) then something you might consider taking away from the event is that you too could be murdered in a field for only one reason, that reason you happened to be out in that field having yourself a happy little range day and it made you a specific target for a pair of killers who wanted guns.

Not part of THE EVENT, but totally separate events not actually part of the shootout itself.

That is why your point keeps being lost.

DT Guy · November 30, 2013, 07:22 PM

In the end, it's mechanical, hydraulic or electrical:

Cut the muscles and tendons-
Remove BP and/or visceral pressure-
Cut off nerve impulses that control the attacking limbs or CNS-

You need to put something into the bad guy that will do one or all of those to impact them, and in a vital area if you want to stop a fight. I find it interesting that one that that could have changed THIS fight THIS time with THESE circumstances is that substituting one ball round for one hollow point might have put a hydraulic failure on one of the bad guys sooner.

Larry

btmj · November 30, 2013, 10:53 PM

Quote:

I am surprised the 12 gauge didn't stop the fight.

If luck had been with the agents that day, it would have.

As Leadcounsel has expressed in detail, this was first and foremost a failure of planning before the encounter and a failure of tactics during the encounter. Only secondarily can it be said that it was a failure of a bullet to penetrate far enough.

I still contend that if those agents had entered the fight all armed with modern 40 cal pistols, it still might have goon badly for them. If you unholster your pistol and lay it on the passenger seat, and then crash your car and loose the gun, it doesn't matter what kind of gun it was.

But if they had gone into the fight with better tactics, AR-15s, MP-5s, and shotguns, Platt and Matix would very likely have been defeated early. These weapons were available to the agents. Since they initiated the encounter, they should have controlled the circumstances a little better.

A shotgun with buckshot has some impressive advantages, but some important limitations as well. It is a short range weapon. 30 to 40 yards, and the closer the better. It does not penetrate barriers well. But on the plus side, it is the ideal weapon to engage a rapidly moving target. For a given point of aim, a clean miss with a rifle can be a good hit with a shotgun, If/when you do get a solid hit, the tissue damage is very severe and blood loss is very rapid. Get 4 or more pellets into the lungs, and blood loss is catastrophic. Ever see a deer hit in the chest with buckshot? They bleed out like a sponge.

Unfortunately, the only time the agents were able to use their shotguns was when the two badguys were still sheltered by automotive glass, and thus it was not very effective.

**JohnKSa** · November 30, 2013, 10:57 PM

Quote:

I am surprised the 12 gauge didn't stop the fight.

Most, perhaps all, of the shotgun hits were peripheral. Nothing works if the placement isn't good.

Hiker 1 · December 1, 2013, 12:10 AM

One of the most useful takeaways from that event is a reminder for us all to never underestimate our opponents. Unfortunately they do get a say-so.

NWPilgrim · December 1, 2013, 03:03 AM

Well, Sevens, I am with you on learning more from this chain of events then endless analysis if one bullet, which is interesting but limited given that modern bonded HP ammo is far more capable.

We had a couple of incidents in Oregon, one was a murder of a lone shooter at a USFS gravel pit and another was the shooting of s couple in a remote USFS campsite. The shooter stopped and chatted with them around the campfire and later in the night returned and shot them in their tent to get their guns.

I think about these situations when I go shooting at forest gravel pits. Situational awareness.

Since I don't shoot 9mm Silvertips I won't worry too much about penetration. But if I had those I would still think I was pretty well armed for 99% of self defense situations. Tactics were much more at fault than one bullet's performance. Like my old FB coach used to say, if you are blaming a loss on one play or one call then you did not play hard enough or smart enough.

RBid · December 1, 2013, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Well, Sevens, I am with you on learning more from this chain of events then endless analysis if one bullet, which is interesting but limited given that modern bonded HP ammo is far more capable.

We had a couple of incidents in Oregon, one was a murder of a lone shooter at a USFS gravel pit and another was the shooting of s couple in a remote USFS campsite. The shooter stopped and chatted with them around the campfire and later in the night returned and shot them in their tent to get their guns.

I think about these situations when I go shooting at forest gravel pits. Situational awareness.

Since I don't shoot 9mm Silvertips I won't worry too much about penetration. But if I had those I would still think I was pretty well armed for 99% of self defense situations. Tactics were much more at fault than one bullet's performance. Like my old FB coach used to say, if you are blaming a loss on one play or one call then you did not play hard enough or smart enough.

Great post, neighbor.

.22lr · December 2, 2013, 04:36 PM

wait wait wait...

[sarcasm]

How does realizing that criminals might target and murder isolated recreational shooters for their guns lead to any revelations about training or tactics?

I thought Tactics and Training was about chest thumping and gear glamorizing.

I don't even see how I can nitpick the tactics or weapon selection by government agents at an event I wasn't at.

Next you'll be telling me that criminals move around so proper shot placement becomes difficult.

[/sarcasm]

Sevens, its a darn good point and one that the shooting community forgets or wants to forget. Guns help us to be more able to defend ourselves, but they can also attract the wrong type of attention. Be safe; bring a buddy when you can.

csmsss · December 9, 2013, 02:52 PM

I think the most important thing to remember about the Miami shootout is that there were MANY contributing factors to the poor outcome. Human factors, equipment choices, tactical choices, mindset, situational awareness, all of these things created the context for this shootout.

One thing I consider a truism is that the actor who feels he has nothing to lose, expects to die, and is not afraid of dying, has a decided psychological advantage over the guy who just wants to go home alive at the end of the day. And that simply is something you cannot teach.

Wreck-n-Crew · December 9, 2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

and maybe did not expand like it would have had it hit something more solid.

Actually HP bullets generally expand fully within the first few inches in flesh so expansion was not inhibited by not hitting a solid object first.

Also if the HP does hit something solid it looses KE and decreases penetration substantially. Even worse the design of most HP are flawed when hitting bone in that the tip clogs and fails to expand. Though velocity still remains enough (most of the time) when a HP fails to expand to penetrate a good 8"+, the lack of expansion defeats the purpose of the HP and unless it hits Spine, heart, or brain it likely will have a fast acting stopping effect on criminals like these.

Pezo · December 13, 2013, 05:35 PM

Csmss. Good point. The "this is just a job" guy versus the guy who is heck bent on going down in flames and taking every one with him. Very troubling

JERRYS. · December 13, 2013, 05:56 PM

a lot of blame was put on the win sthp 115gr. 9mm for its lack of performance; when in fact the round performed as designed, it was simply misapplied.

Glenn Dee · December 13, 2013, 07:54 PM

This was not police work/tactics. This was FBI work/tactics. No matter what anyone may think, the FBI is not the police.

I was also a police officer when this happened. And the tactics were studied again and again. Outside the classroom we all asked.."what could they have been thinking?" The police probably would have done it differently. They also may have gotten the same results. It was what it was... I dont see any need to criticize the agents, or the agency. Whats important now is that everyone learn from it. Those agents should not have lost their lives in vain.

Contrary to what anyone may think... It's pretty hard to kill someone. Human beings are incredibly resiliant. The idea of a one shot stop in the torso is unlikely. A shot to the head may not result in a one shot stop. People have been shot multiple times and survived. Even those shot fatally take time to die.

jimbob86 · December 13, 2013, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Contrary to what anyone may think... It's pretty hard to kill someone. Human beings are incredibly resiliant.

In the near term, yes- if the person is determined to fight.

If he is not, then he has already lost.

Modern human beings are generally pretty fragile creatures ......

Wreck-n-Crew · December 13, 2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

a lot of blame was put on the win sthp 115gr. 9mm for its lack of performance; when in fact the round performed as designed, it was simply misapplied.

Most 9mm today performs much better IMO and if it performed as designed then there was a design flaw?! In what way was it misapplied?

I hold the belief that the round had penetration problems.
As an example to penetration in some of todays 9mm ( 9mm Gold Dot 115 GRN HP) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2s82NCLKQI

Penetration depth 17.5".

Here Hornady XTP 115 GRN HP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SawaatDRXRo

Penetration depth 15"

Here is a Winchester 115 GRN STHP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IM5xqukPo

Penetration depth 9"

Some believe 9" is enough while others don't. I don't. Too much bone to deplete energy if hit for one. However there were many problems that day that lead to the disaster even if the 9mm STHP was insufficient.

TRX · December 14, 2013, 09:11 AM

The event was the end result of a long chain of bad decisions and bad luck. Men died because of it.

I understand how stress and circumstances affect things, and I've read the FBI report and various synposes. I'm going to say this, not to cast aspersions on the agents, but to highlight something that looks more like an institutional problem than an individual one:

Their "shots fired" to "kills" ratio stank. It doesn't matter what your magazine capacity is if you're not hitting the target.

Afterward, the FBI revised their training procedures. Higher-capacity pistols were only part of that, but that's what the press seemed to concentrate on. Guys sitting in a classroom or standing at the firing line aren't nearly as interesting as shiny new toys.

November 30, 2013, 10:13 AM	#54
jtmckinney Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 490	I only know what I do about this event reading the threads on this site when they come up so maybe what I am about to say has already been expressed. Looking at the photo of the arm the bullet entered and traveled along the muscle. Probably not as much resistance to it's travel as crossways and maybe did not expand like it would have had it hit something more solid. Even if the arm wasn't against the chest maybe the skin could have stretched enough to come into contact with the chest before the bullet penetrated the skin on the arm. Xray shows an expanded bullet but maybe the bullet didn't expand much until it hit the muscle and cartilidge in the chest wall. Also the xray doesn't show any rib damage. Maybe there is some just outside of the xray view. If it went between the ribs that could also explain his ability to keep fighting for at least a few more minutes. A solid hit on a rib with the shock transferred to the spine might have stopped him right then. I know, Lots of maybe's. Have a great day! James __________________ “Government does few things well but it does them at great expense” Cal Thomas “When Government Can’t Be Trusted” 6/11/2013 When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedoms because that is according to my principles. Frank Herbert "Children of Dune"

November 30, 2013, 04:14 PM	#58
militant Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 519	I am surprised the 12 gauge didn't stop the fight. __________________ A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

November 30, 2013, 07:22 PM	#60
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	In the end, it's mechanical, hydraulic or electrical: Cut the muscles and tendons- Remove BP and/or visceral pressure- Cut off nerve impulses that control the attacking limbs or CNS- You need to put something into the bad guy that will do one or all of those to impact them, and in a vital area if you want to stop a fight. I find it interesting that one that that could have changed THIS fight THIS time with THESE circumstances is that substituting one ball round for one hollow point might have put a hydraulic failure on one of the bad guys sooner. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

December 1, 2013, 03:03 AM	#64
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Revisiting 1986 shootout - Interesting to see people with GSWs continue to fight Well, Sevens, I am with you on learning more from this chain of events then endless analysis if one bullet, which is interesting but limited given that modern bonded HP ammo is far more capable. We had a couple of incidents in Oregon, one was a murder of a lone shooter at a USFS gravel pit and another was the shooting of s couple in a remote USFS campsite. The shooter stopped and chatted with them around the campfire and later in the night returned and shot them in their tent to get their guns. I think about these situations when I go shooting at forest gravel pits. Situational awareness. Since I don't shoot 9mm Silvertips I won't worry too much about penetration. But if I had those I would still think I was pretty well armed for 99% of self defense situations. Tactics were much more at fault than one bullet's performance. Like my old FB coach used to say, if you are blaming a loss on one play or one call then you did not play hard enough or smart enough.

December 1, 2013, 12:10 AM	#63
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	One of the most useful takeaways from that event is a reminder for us all to never underestimate our opponents. Unfortunately they do get a say-so.

December 2, 2013, 04:36 PM	#66
.22lr Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2007 Posts: 245	wait wait wait... [sarcasm] How does realizing that criminals might target and murder isolated recreational shooters for their guns lead to any revelations about training or tactics? I thought Tactics and Training was about chest thumping and gear glamorizing. I don't even see how I can nitpick the tactics or weapon selection by government agents at an event I wasn't at. Next you'll be telling me that criminals move around so proper shot placement becomes difficult. [/sarcasm] Sevens, its a darn good point and one that the shooting community forgets or wants to forget. Guns help us to be more able to defend ourselves, but they can also attract the wrong type of attention. Be safe; bring a buddy when you can.

December 9, 2013, 02:52 PM	#67
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I think the most important thing to remember about the Miami shootout is that there were MANY contributing factors to the poor outcome. Human factors, equipment choices, tactical choices, mindset, situational awareness, all of these things created the context for this shootout. One thing I consider a truism is that the actor who feels he has nothing to lose, expects to die, and is not afraid of dying, has a decided psychological advantage over the guy who just wants to go home alive at the end of the day. And that simply is something you cannot teach.

December 13, 2013, 05:35 PM	#69
Pezo Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Vernors and orange barrels. Posts: 661	Csmss. Good point. The "this is just a job" guy versus the guy who is heck bent on going down in flames and taking every one with him. Very troubling

December 13, 2013, 05:56 PM	#70
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	a lot of blame was put on the win sthp 115gr. 9mm for its lack of performance; when in fact the round performed as designed, it was simply misapplied.

December 13, 2013, 07:54 PM	#71
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	This was not police work/tactics. This was FBI work/tactics. No matter what anyone may think, the FBI is not the police. I was also a police officer when this happened. And the tactics were studied again and again. Outside the classroom we all asked.."what could they have been thinking?" The police probably would have done it differently. They also may have gotten the same results. It was what it was... I dont see any need to criticize the agents, or the agency. Whats important now is that everyone learn from it. Those agents should not have lost their lives in vain. Contrary to what anyone may think... It's pretty hard to kill someone. Human beings are incredibly resiliant. The idea of a one shot stop in the torso is unlikely. A shot to the head may not result in a one shot stop. People have been shot multiple times and survived. Even those shot fatally take time to die.

December 14, 2013, 09:11 AM	#74
TRX Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2008 Location: central Arkansas Posts: 400	The event was the end result of a long chain of bad decisions and bad luck. Men died because of it. I understand how stress and circumstances affect things, and I've read the FBI report and various synposes. I'm going to say this, not to cast aspersions on the agents, but to highlight something that looks more like an institutional problem than an individual one: Their "shots fired" to "kills" ratio stank. It doesn't matter what your magazine capacity is if you're not hitting the target. Afterward, the FBI revised their training procedures. Higher-capacity pistols were only part of that, but that's what the press seemed to concentrate on. Guys sitting in a classroom or standing at the firing line aren't nearly as interesting as shiny new toys.