Any factory 38 special rounds out there that are heavier than 158 grains?

CCCLVII · February 16, 2017, 12:32 AM

Working on a suppressed Encore (12 inch barrel) and wondering if there is any 38 special (or +P) that is heavier than 158 grains? Looking for a bit more power but still want sub sonic (suppressed)

the gun is 38/357 so a heavy subsonic 357 would work too...

old bear · February 16, 2017, 08:12 AM

I believe both Buffalo Bore and Underwood offer 180Gr. .357 Magnum rounds. Underwood offers a Keith style hardcast 158Gr. 38 special+P round. It's rated at 1,200 FPS developing 550 foot pounds of energy, which is low end .357 Magnum specs.

Will_G · February 16, 2017, 09:33 AM

Blazer, somewhat to my surprise, apparently offers a 200 grain 38 special round:

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/38-special/...00grains-?ar=1

I don't know if that would work for you, but it is interesting!

**44 AMP** · February 16, 2017, 10:18 AM

I seriously doubt you will find a factory .357 load that is subsonic.

I don't know what's in current production, but up through the 70s (at least) there was a 200gr LRN "police" load .38 Special.

It kind of fell out of favor when testing showed it wouldn't reliably penetrate car windshields unless fired from a 6" barrel. 4" would penetrate sometimes, and 2" (detective specials) virtually never.

If you're looking to stay subsonic in a 12" barrel, I'd say you need to be handloading.

Good Luck.

Dan-O · February 17, 2017, 09:08 AM

Certainly not factory, but check these out, 230 gr pills:

HighValleyRanch · February 17, 2017, 01:37 PM

I see that they no longer stock this item.

SIGSHR · February 17, 2017, 03:14 PM

IIRC years ago there was a 200 grain "Super Police" load available, and part of the reason the Brits adopted the No. 2 Mk i was they found the 200 grain bullet in 38 S&W was pretty close to the 455 in stopping power though they later had to adopt a 178 grain FMJ to comply with the Hague Convention.

surveyor · February 17, 2017, 10:03 PM

Penn bullets lists a 230 gr.
I haven't used any though.
not factory, you'll have to load them.
https://www.pennbullets.com/38/38230tndrhd.html

Looks like same design as above, 230 wadcutter

T. O'Heir · February 18, 2017, 12:35 PM

The 200 grain bullet in 38 S&W was done to try and up the "power" of the S&W for budgetary reasons. The Brit spent very little money on non-naval stuff between the Wars.
There's jacketed 170 grain .38 Special and +P data on Hodgdon's site. All of 'em under 1,125 ft/s(Speed of sound at 68 °F and I think at sea level.), but out of a 7.7" barrel. Not likely subsonic out of a 12" barrel though. (Ballistics by the Inch only goes to 135 grains with .38 Special. 158's in .357. Only a 2 or 3 inch barrel is subsonic.)
I've seen 200 grain data some place in the last 24 to 48 hours too. It'd either be Reloader's Nest or Handloads.com.
Suspect those 230's are for a rifle.

natman · February 18, 2017, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Blazer, somewhat to my surprise, apparently offers a 200 grain 38 special round:

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/38-special/...00grains-?ar=1

I don't know if that would work for you, but it is interesting!

I was surprised too, so I looked around. Nobody offers such a load and it's not listed on Blazer's website.

Blazer does offer a 200 grain 44 Special load, so I suspect the Cabela's listing that AmmoSeek found is a typo.

ShootistPRS · February 18, 2017, 01:31 PM

I remember when there as just 4 types of ammo sold for the 38 special.
There was the 148 grain wadcutter; the 158 grain round nose; the 158 SWC; and the 200 grain police.
The 200 grain police load was a round nose 200 grain lead bullet at 850 fps listed velocity. This was the round that I believe killed the 38 for law enforcement. The actual velocity from a 4 inch revolver was 700 to 750 fps and if angled at a cars windshield would bounce rarely breaking the glass.

Even after the +P and +P+ loads were developed the police felt under gunned.

HighValleyRanch · February 18, 2017, 02:01 PM

Going back further, there was the Remington 125 grain .38 specials.
This is an old box of them I still have.

My brother just got us a new Chrono, so when the weather clears and we get together at the range, will do some velocity tests of some of this vintage stuff, maybe!HEH

HighValleyRanch · February 18, 2017, 02:04 PM

And an even lighter grain version of the .38 special. I don't think there are any current loads this light. These were made specially for short barrel revolvers!
I bet these are pretty rare! I wonder how fast these will be?

Wow, I see that Hornady Critical defense comes in a 90 grain round for light recoil SD tailored for women shooters.

Will_G · February 18, 2017, 04:06 PM

natman, in post #10:

You're probably right about that listing for the supposed 200 grain .38 special on Cabelas' website being in error. I did actually check Cabelas' website before I posted and found that listing. But if it is not on the Blazer website, in all probability Cabelas is incorrect.

The price shown is more appropriate for .44 than .38, too.

Nick_C_S · February 18, 2017, 04:16 PM

Quote:

I don't know what's in current production, but up through the 70s (at least) there was a 200gr LRN "police" load .38 Special.

I bought these in 1984-ish . . .

Model12Win · February 18, 2017, 08:26 PM

The 200 grain .38 "super police" loads had an excellent reputation for stopping power against unarmored threats but had a very low penetration rating against auto glass or side panels.

GarrettJ · February 18, 2017, 08:59 PM

As noted by others, if you want to realize the full potential of your setup you will want to get into reloading.

I've got a 6" Contender barrel that I shoot suppressed, as well as a couple of 14" barrels. I've loaded 180 gr XTPs in .38 Spl brass out to .357 Mag length (.357 Special?). So far I've only played with a couple of loads, and haven't gotten over 800 fps or so. Need to finish working up those loads.

But they sound great suppressed, and should do a pretty decent job.

I like the looks of those 230 gr loads too. I don't shoot much bare lead through my cans, but I might make an exception for those.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 19, 2017, 02:35 PM

If the Super Police 38 spl had an 200 grain bullet and assuming those had a velocity of about 700 to 750 fps then you get an energy of well over 200 ft/lbs and up to 250 ft/lbs.

That should be an normal 38 spl load.

But maybe the slow velocity was to slow for breaking glass in an angle.
But I would seriously doubt an 250 ft/lbs bullet will not break the glass as I have broken my window with an ricochet bullet which had about 200 ft/lbs of energy.

There may be an velocity threshold for penetrating glass.

Some Claim as well the modern 45 acp round will not allways penetrate glass.

.38SPL enthusiast · February 20, 2017, 08:29 PM

I wish Winchester still made those cartridges. From what I've been able to find, they were last catalogued in 1989. However, it's really easy to duplicate this loading and I've loaded and shot thousands of them with the cast bullet version and small charges of powder. They aren't very loud out of a revolver anyway, so suppressed should be really subtle. They get the work done via sheer mass. Out of a revolver they yaw making a really big hole, but I'm not sure if they would retain this property out of a long barrel.

February 16, 2017, 10:18 AM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	I seriously doubt you will find a factory .357 load that is subsonic. I don't know what's in current production, but up through the 70s (at least) there was a 200gr LRN "police" load .38 Special. It kind of fell out of favor when testing showed it wouldn't reliably penetrate car windshields unless fired from a 6" barrel. 4" would penetrate sometimes, and 2" (detective specials) virtually never. If you're looking to stay subsonic in a 12" barrel, I'd say you need to be handloading. Good Luck. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 17, 2017, 01:37 PM	#6
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	I see that they no longer stock this item. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

February 18, 2017, 12:35 PM	#9
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The 200 grain bullet in 38 S&W was done to try and up the "power" of the S&W for budgetary reasons. The Brit spent very little money on non-naval stuff between the Wars. There's jacketed 170 grain .38 Special and +P data on Hodgdon's site. All of 'em under 1,125 ft/s(Speed of sound at 68 °F and I think at sea level.), but out of a 7.7" barrel. Not likely subsonic out of a 12" barrel though. (Ballistics by the Inch only goes to 135 grains with .38 Special. 158's in .357. Only a 2 or 3 inch barrel is subsonic.) I've seen 200 grain data some place in the last 24 to 48 hours too. It'd either be Reloader's Nest or Handloads.com. Suspect those 230's are for a rifle. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 16, 2017, 12:32 AM	#1
CCCLVII Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2012 Location: Idaho Posts: 432	Any factory 38 special rounds out there that are heavier than 158 grains? Working on a suppressed Encore (12 inch barrel) and wondering if there is any 38 special (or +P) that is heavier than 158 grains? Looking for a bit more power but still want sub sonic (suppressed) the gun is 38/357 so a heavy subsonic 357 would work too... __________________ Always looking for a good hunt!

February 16, 2017, 08:12 AM	#2
old bear Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2009 Location: Not close enough to the beach Posts: 1,477	I believe both Buffalo Bore and Underwood offer 180Gr. .357 Magnum rounds. Underwood offers a Keith style hardcast 158Gr. 38 special+P round. It's rated at 1,200 FPS developing 550 foot pounds of energy, which is low end .357 Magnum specs.

February 16, 2017, 09:33 AM	#3
Will_G Member Join Date: January 6, 2017 Posts: 27	Blazer, somewhat to my surprise, apparently offers a 200 grain 38 special round: http://ammoseek.com/ammo/38-special/...00grains-?ar=1 I don't know if that would work for you, but it is interesting!

February 17, 2017, 09:08 AM	#5
Dan-O Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2011 Location: Northern Colorado Posts: 969	Certainly not factory, but check these out, 230 gr pills:

February 17, 2017, 03:14 PM	#7
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	IIRC years ago there was a 200 grain "Super Police" load available, and part of the reason the Brits adopted the No. 2 Mk i was they found the 200 grain bullet in 38 S&W was pretty close to the 455 in stopping power though they later had to adopt a 178 grain FMJ to comply with the Hague Convention.

February 17, 2017, 10:03 PM	#8
surveyor Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2007 Posts: 770	Penn bullets lists a 230 gr. I haven't used any though. not factory, you'll have to load them. https://www.pennbullets.com/38/38230tndrhd.html Looks like same design as above, 230 wadcutter

February 18, 2017, 01:31 PM	#11
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	I remember when there as just 4 types of ammo sold for the 38 special. There was the 148 grain wadcutter; the 158 grain round nose; the 158 SWC; and the 200 grain police. The 200 grain police load was a round nose 200 grain lead bullet at 850 fps listed velocity. This was the round that I believe killed the 38 for law enforcement. The actual velocity from a 4 inch revolver was 700 to 750 fps and if angled at a cars windshield would bounce rarely breaking the glass. Even after the +P and +P+ loads were developed the police felt under gunned.

February 18, 2017, 04:06 PM	#14
Will_G Member Join Date: January 6, 2017 Posts: 27	natman, in post #10: You're probably right about that listing for the supposed 200 grain .38 special on Cabelas' website being in error. I did actually check Cabelas' website before I posted and found that listing. But if it is not on the Blazer website, in all probability Cabelas is incorrect. The price shown is more appropriate for .44 than .38, too.

February 18, 2017, 08:26 PM	#16
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	The 200 grain .38 "super police" loads had an excellent reputation for stopping power against unarmored threats but had a very low penetration rating against auto glass or side panels.

February 18, 2017, 08:59 PM	#17
GarrettJ Member Join Date: April 13, 2008 Posts: 94	As noted by others, if you want to realize the full potential of your setup you will want to get into reloading. I've got a 6" Contender barrel that I shoot suppressed, as well as a couple of 14" barrels. I've loaded 180 gr XTPs in .38 Spl brass out to .357 Mag length (.357 Special?). So far I've only played with a couple of loads, and haven't gotten over 800 fps or so. Need to finish working up those loads. But they sound great suppressed, and should do a pretty decent job. I like the looks of those 230 gr loads too. I don't shoot much bare lead through my cans, but I might make an exception for those.

February 19, 2017, 02:35 PM	#18
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	If the Super Police 38 spl had an 200 grain bullet and assuming those had a velocity of about 700 to 750 fps then you get an energy of well over 200 ft/lbs and up to 250 ft/lbs. That should be an normal 38 spl load. But maybe the slow velocity was to slow for breaking glass in an angle. But I would seriously doubt an 250 ft/lbs bullet will not break the glass as I have broken my window with an ricochet bullet which had about 200 ft/lbs of energy. There may be an velocity threshold for penetrating glass. Some Claim as well the modern 45 acp round will not allways penetrate glass.

February 20, 2017, 08:29 PM	#19
.38SPL enthusiast Member Join Date: August 21, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 78	I wish Winchester still made those cartridges. From what I've been able to find, they were last catalogued in 1989. However, it's really easy to duplicate this loading and I've loaded and shot thousands of them with the cast bullet version and small charges of powder. They aren't very loud out of a revolver anyway, so suppressed should be really subtle. They get the work done via sheer mass. Out of a revolver they yaw making a really big hole, but I'm not sure if they would retain this property out of a long barrel.