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Old July 15, 2007, 10:45 AM   #1
firechicken
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Loading for the "Wow" factor

Just curious if anyone else has a special load that they shoot just because it is very impressive to shoot. Mine is 357 Mag loaded with 125gr JHP over 22.0gr H110 fired in my 4" GP100. Not the most accurate load, but it gives off a big "boom" with a huge fireball and a very noticable concussion to anyone nearby. Usually, after the first round is fired, everyone else stops shooting. I'm not sure if it's because the noise/concussion is distracting, or it's because they just wanna watch!
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Old July 15, 2007, 10:52 AM   #2
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Not me. My purpose for shooting at the range is to improve my marksmanship. my purpose for reloading is to improve the accuracy of the firearm I'm shooting which effects my marksmanship. Sorry, but I find other pursuits when reloading to be,well, juvenile.

To quote the late great Mr. Earp, " Speed is good, accuracy is final."

Yes even plinking with a 22 is an excersize in marksmanship.
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Old July 15, 2007, 12:03 PM   #3
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RW, me either! Occasionally, in pursuit of a load, I will come across one that produces a big boom or a fireball. I certainly do NOT re-produce it!

In my first attempts at loading 357 sig, I tried some surplus WC-820 powder. It was/is supposed to burn close to AA#9, so I figured what the hey. BLOOEY and a nice bright red fire ball, on a sunny mid day.

To me, the wow factor comes when I shoot little tiny groups, or get something to work that's never been tried before. Case in point, a 45 cal muzzle loading sabot,(with a 158 grain 357 XTP), in a 45-70 case, with a 50 grain pyrodex pellet in a trapdoor rifle. Fun to shoot, and reasonably accurate.
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Old July 15, 2007, 12:50 PM   #4
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I looked that load up on Hodgdon's web site. 41,000 C.U.P. Well above the SAMMI limit of 35,000, but right on the European CIP limit of 43,500 PSI, which will convert to about 41,000 C.U.P. I am surprised their lawyers let them publish it. I would expect fairly rapid forcing cone erosion from it. Having shot out a Dan Wesson .357 revolver barrel myself, I know it is possible to do in this chambering. The old Winchester data on 296 (same St. Marks powder as Hodgdon H110, but packaged under the Winchester brand) recommends only 18.5 grains for 125 grain jacketed loads.

I definitely would look at this as a 357 +P+ load. Be cautious out there.
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Old July 15, 2007, 01:28 PM   #5
firechicken
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Quote:
The old Winchester data on 296 (same St. Marks powder as Hodgdon H110, but packaged under the Winchester brand) recommends only 18.5 grains for 125 grain jacketed loads.
That's strange. I have Winchester's '06 manual, and Hodgdon's '07 manual and they both list the max H110/W296 load with a 125gr JHP at 22.0gr and caution against dropping it more that 3%. Pressure is listed at 41,400 CUP. The primers on the fired cases appear more like a 38 Special +P primer than they do a 357 Mag primer, and the cases almost fall from the cylinder when it's opened. I think it's safe in my Ruger.

I did say that this is not the most accurate load for my 357 Mag, but I didn't mean that it is inaccurate. It might shoot a 3" group while the best load I've found will shoot a 2" group. It's just something I stumbled accross in the search for "the load" for my 357. I definitely wouldn't want to have to use it in a self-defense situation......at night, with no hearing protection.
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Old July 15, 2007, 02:21 PM   #6
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The 21 grain starting load listed by Hodgdon's site (they now also market Winchester's powders and have combined the H110/296 data to match), should come down to about the SAMMI max. That last grain of powder pushes the pressure up quite a bit. The older Winchester data I have claims 18.5 grains will hit over 32,000 CUP, but my computer programs predict it will be rather lower. This powder has some real lot-to-lot variance, and measuring a 10% peak pressure difference from one lot to the next is not unusual. It may well be the batches tested to developed loads have been even more different than that. I have attached the 2003 Winchester data page I pulled this from in PDF format. Note when you look at it that they have a number of loads listed as hitting 42,500 CUP. Maybe SAMMI's .357 standard is just being ignored for some reason?

Primer flattening is not a reliable pressure indicator in handgun loads. Flattening mostly comes from the primer pushing out of the case while pressure sticks the brass to the chamber sides, then reseating it by stretching the case head back against the breech. Most handguns don't have high enough pressure for the sticking to occur in the first place. Magnums are right on the margin of that pressure, so some of their loads do stick and some don't. I have read a couple of reports of cylinders burst by loads whose recovered cases had no primer flattening. Sticky extraction is a more reliable sign in a revolver.

The warning, as you note, is not to load down more than 3% from recommended H110/296 maximum loads. However, close scrutiny reveals some of Hodgdon's own listed starting loads are more than 3% below their own listed maximums, and some of Winchester's published loads for 296 didn't agree within 3% of Hodgdons back before Hodgdon took over marketing the Winchester powder brand. Also, different case brands can vary 3% in capacity. So, you may reasonably conclude there is actually some additional fudge room with this powder, despite that warning.

Even though Hodgdon marketed this powder before Winchester, Winchester was the first to come up with the underloading warning, IIRC. My recollection is they originally wanted you to use just their one recommended load, without even a 3% margin. Before that, Hodgdon didn't have a warning, but added it after Winchester. I believe it was Hodgdon who introduced the 3% allowance. The idea is not fear of detonation from underfilling the case, as some presume, but that the barrel/cylinder gap of a revolver has been known to drop the start pressure enough that the load fizzles, leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel for the next round to smack into. If you check the barrel every time you don't see a hole appear on the target, you should do OK experimenting with somewhat greater load reductions than are recommended. I know of no reason not to adjust loads of this powder down further in rifles and auto pistols, where there is no barrel/cylinder gap to relieve pressure prematurely.

You are correct, I am sure, that your Ruger won't balk at the pressure from this load. I don't think many guns would, including older Smith's. It will, however, wear the forcing cone and throat faster. That's always the penalty for more speed and power in a given chambering.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf page25 357 mag.pdf (334.2 KB, 14 views)
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Old July 15, 2007, 09:00 PM   #7
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I think the SAMMI maximum for the .357 USED to be 46,000 CUP. Data from 20 years ago varies. I have the same 18.5 max. with a 125 gr. bullet data. I used to load the 140 gr. Speer HP over 17.5 gr. of 296 and it was a great load in my old M27s. For torch appeal I like the 170 gr. Sierra JHC over 24.0 of H110 in the 41 mag. And the 180 gr. JHC over 27.0 of H110 in the 44 mag.
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