how low can you go?

rr41mag · September 25, 2000, 05:38 AM

I know alot of focus is on the high side of loading but what about the low side? I want to down load some .270's for my son to shoot for deer this year. He is 6 years old and will be shooting a 700 bdl. I'm looking at a 100 gr hollow point loaded with 4350. loaded at min. if the kick is too much for him how much lower can I safely go?

labgrade · September 25, 2000, 09:40 AM

Really shouldn't deviate from established loading data. Some cartridges are fairly prone to detonation with some powders in reduced loads. I'd stay with what's listed.

Even at the lower standard loadings, 100 gr bullets are still smokin' along at the 2900+fps range. Doubtful that there'd be all that much reduction in recoil.

The Speer manual has some reduced loads using SR4759 for 100-150 gr bullets & keeps 'em in the 1500-2000fps - probably what you're looking for.

Too, with experience shooting cast bullets in this velocity range, the recoil with heavier bullets is pretty minimal & you'll probably have better penetration/good results with a bit heavier bullet than the 100 gr.

I'd suggest at least the 130 gr at lower velocities AND check with bullet manufacturer to ensure proper expansion at lower velocities.

Let us know what you come up with & good luck to "the boy." (I have this picture in my mind of a rifle 'bout the size of the little man.

)

Mikul · September 25, 2000, 11:16 AM

I can't say if this is true for all manuals, but the minimum loads in the Lyman for 9mm were too low to even cycle the action on my semi-auto, and I mean waaaay too low.

If you'd like, I could post the Lyman's recommendations for your round.

Hutch · September 25, 2000, 11:57 AM

I'd stay away from 4350 or similar powders for reallllly reduced loads. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has some interesting stuff in it, but it's obviously not meant for jacketed bullets. That being said, the caution and prudent experimenter may be able to concoct something using a very fast rifle powder of slow pistol powder that meets your needs.

saands · September 25, 2000, 02:14 PM

The Lee manual has an interesting chapter on reduced loads ... they recommend staying with powders that are in the middle of the burn range. Loads that result in a case that isn't empty are a plus as well ... one of the theories to explain unexplained detonations is that the powder ends up either at one end of the casing or the other and that the burn rate is dramatically different in the two cases. The other thing is that when you shoot these really light loads you might find flattened primers even though the load felt light and the velocities through a chrono were as expected ... the flat primers are actually (in this case) the result of inadequate pressure to expand the brass against the chamber wall with sufficient force to keep the cartridge from sliding back against the bolt face. I talked to Ted Curtis the Ballistics Manager at Accurate (800-416-3006 Ex.244) and he was able to give some loads that worked well for .308 that were borderline on sub-sonic ... my guess is that he can help you with your loads as well. I loaded some -06 for my nephew that he compared to the recoil of a .223 that were in the 1400-1500 fps range with a 110 grain bullet ... my guess is that you will be good to go if you have a week or two to get things straight and tested before the hunt.
Good luck and BE SAFE!
Bill

labgrade · September 25, 2000, 06:18 PM

I can't stress it enough.

Use published loading data put out by the folks that do it for a living.

In some instances in the .243 Win using (mumble) IMR 4350, etc., reduced loads have blown the rifle up causing serious injury to the shooter.

Most certainly, if you get data from a reputable source that may not be published (quite a lot of that around), go ahead, but, why screw around with an unknown when sources (such as Speer) have it in print.

All you have to do is switch powder.

Could save your boy's face.

WalterGAII · September 25, 2000, 06:46 PM

Seems to me that you're risking your son's developing some bad habits, such as fliching. Of course, your son could be one of those rare, 6'tall, 185# 6-yr-olds. He's going to get his little shoulder knocked off by a 270. Might want to consider something based on a short-action round, then you won't have to be concerned about his blowing up his rifle with a defective load.

Jack Straw · September 26, 2000, 12:16 PM

I would take labgrade's advice -- get a copy of Speer #13 and a can of SR4759 (it comes in a half lb. can) and make some reduced loads that are safe. They will be a great aid in teaching your son to shoot and they are an easy-on-the-shoulder way for you to practice too.

One word of warning: reduced loads are a ton of fun (IMHO) and you will probably find yourself shooting your rifles alot more...but that's a good thing ain't it?

Jack

Paul B. · September 26, 2000, 01:08 PM

RR41Mag. At one time, it was popular to load up "gallery" loads for short range practice, and "mid-range" loads for basically the same purpose at longer ranges. For some reason, these practices seem to have been forgotten in the race to get more velocity from our rifles. There is a book, if you can find a copy, called PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICES OF LOADING AMMUNITION by Earl Naramore. It has been long out of print, and rather expensive, if you can find a copy. (Mine cost me $100.00) Maybe your local library might be able to locate a copy, but don't hold your breath.
Anyway, based on Mr. Naramore's writings, you can use a powder such as IMR-3031 or IMR-4895 and work up a reduced load that will still be capable of killing a deer, without killing your son's shoulder. If you are interested, E-mail me, and I'll be more than happy to help you develop a load.
Paul B.

MADISON · September 26, 2000, 04:18 PM

Get a copy of the LEE Reloading Manual, if it isn't yours, copy the address from the back of the book on "squib" loads. Send them $5.00 and they will send you a MS Dos disk.

You plug in the powder you want to use/use, the bullett weight, and velocity you want to use and you will be amazed at what you get.

My server is down and I am using K-Mart's Blue Light until I can get new software installed. I will get back to anyone who E-Mails me to verify...

[This message has been edited by MADISON (edited September 29, 2000).]

September 25, 2000, 05:38 AM	#1
rr41mag Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2000 Location: Biloxi, Miss. Posts: 180	I know alot of focus is on the high side of loading but what about the low side? I want to down load some .270's for my son to shoot for deer this year. He is 6 years old and will be shooting a 700 bdl. I'm looking at a 100 gr hollow point loaded with 4350. loaded at min. if the kick is too much for him how much lower can I safely go?

September 25, 2000, 09:40 AM	#2
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Really shouldn't deviate from established loading data. Some cartridges are fairly prone to detonation with some powders in reduced loads. I'd stay with what's listed. Even at the lower standard loadings, 100 gr bullets are still smokin' along at the 2900+fps range. Doubtful that there'd be all that much reduction in recoil. The Speer manual has some reduced loads using SR4759 for 100-150 gr bullets & keeps 'em in the 1500-2000fps - probably what you're looking for. Too, with experience shooting cast bullets in this velocity range, the recoil with heavier bullets is pretty minimal & you'll probably have better penetration/good results with a bit heavier bullet than the 100 gr. I'd suggest at least the 130 gr at lower velocities AND check with bullet manufacturer to ensure proper expansion at lower velocities. Let us know what you come up with & good luck to "the boy." (I have this picture in my mind of a rifle 'bout the size of the little man. )

September 25, 2000, 11:16 AM	#3
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	I can't say if this is true for all manuals, but the minimum loads in the Lyman for 9mm were too low to even cycle the action on my semi-auto, and I mean waaaay too low. If you'd like, I could post the Lyman's recommendations for your round.

September 25, 2000, 11:57 AM	#4
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	I'd stay away from 4350 or similar powders for reallllly reduced loads. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has some interesting stuff in it, but it's obviously not meant for jacketed bullets. That being said, the caution and prudent experimenter may be able to concoct something using a very fast rifle powder of slow pistol powder that meets your needs.

September 25, 2000, 02:14 PM	#5
saands Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1999 Posts: 1,573	The Lee manual has an interesting chapter on reduced loads ... they recommend staying with powders that are in the middle of the burn range. Loads that result in a case that isn't empty are a plus as well ... one of the theories to explain unexplained detonations is that the powder ends up either at one end of the casing or the other and that the burn rate is dramatically different in the two cases. The other thing is that when you shoot these really light loads you might find flattened primers even though the load felt light and the velocities through a chrono were as expected ... the flat primers are actually (in this case) the result of inadequate pressure to expand the brass against the chamber wall with sufficient force to keep the cartridge from sliding back against the bolt face. I talked to Ted Curtis the Ballistics Manager at Accurate (800-416-3006 Ex.244) and he was able to give some loads that worked well for .308 that were borderline on sub-sonic ... my guess is that he can help you with your loads as well. I loaded some -06 for my nephew that he compared to the recoil of a .223 that were in the 1400-1500 fps range with a 110 grain bullet ... my guess is that you will be good to go if you have a week or two to get things straight and tested before the hunt. Good luck and BE SAFE! Bill

September 25, 2000, 06:18 PM	#6
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	I can't stress it enough. Use published loading data put out by the folks that do it for a living. In some instances in the .243 Win using (mumble) IMR 4350, etc., reduced loads have blown the rifle up causing serious injury to the shooter. Most certainly, if you get data from a reputable source that may not be published (quite a lot of that around), go ahead, but, why screw around with an unknown when sources (such as Speer) have it in print. All you have to do is switch powder. Could save your boy's face.

September 25, 2000, 06:46 PM	#7
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	Seems to me that you're risking your son's developing some bad habits, such as fliching. Of course, your son could be one of those rare, 6'tall, 185# 6-yr-olds. He's going to get his little shoulder knocked off by a 270. Might want to consider something based on a short-action round, then you won't have to be concerned about his blowing up his rifle with a defective load.

September 26, 2000, 12:16 PM	#8
Jack Straw Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 362	I would take labgrade's advice -- get a copy of Speer #13 and a can of SR4759 (it comes in a half lb. can) and make some reduced loads that are safe. They will be a great aid in teaching your son to shoot and they are an easy-on-the-shoulder way for you to practice too. One word of warning: reduced loads are a ton of fun (IMHO) and you will probably find yourself shooting your rifles alot more...but that's a good thing ain't it? Jack

September 26, 2000, 01:08 PM	#9
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,801	RR41Mag. At one time, it was popular to load up "gallery" loads for short range practice, and "mid-range" loads for basically the same purpose at longer ranges. For some reason, these practices seem to have been forgotten in the race to get more velocity from our rifles. There is a book, if you can find a copy, called PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICES OF LOADING AMMUNITION by Earl Naramore. It has been long out of print, and rather expensive, if you can find a copy. (Mine cost me $100.00) Maybe your local library might be able to locate a copy, but don't hold your breath. Anyway, based on Mr. Naramore's writings, you can use a powder such as IMR-3031 or IMR-4895 and work up a reduced load that will still be capable of killing a deer, without killing your son's shoulder. If you are interested, E-mail me, and I'll be more than happy to help you develop a load. Paul B.

September 26, 2000, 04:18 PM	#10
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	Get a copy of the LEE Reloading Manual, if it isn't yours, copy the address from the back of the book on "squib" loads. Send them $5.00 and they will send you a MS Dos disk. You plug in the powder you want to use/use, the bullett weight, and velocity you want to use and you will be amazed at what you get. My server is down and I am using K-Mart's Blue Light until I can get new software installed. I will get back to anyone who E-Mails me to verify... [This message has been edited by MADISON (edited September 29, 2000).]