Secondary Non-lethal weapon

[mattro]

Sounds like KCshooter has a serious problem with machoism, probably watches too many tuff guy movies. Sounds like he has a problem not wanting to be a victim to some POS. Sounds like a problem of wanting to make sure a worthless pos doesn't take what he works hard for.

If he didn't have this problem, he would probably support a welfare state, support complete government handouts and control, stopping racial profiling, and support affirmative action.

Wow, what a shame.

To bad there aren't a whole lot more with that problem.

[oldbillthundercheif]

If you shoot an unarmed doofus you are not going to get that "followup story", kc. You think that backing up a few feet will make a prosecutor see things your way when there is a body involved?

If you shoot an unarmed geek, you are going to trial. You may win, but I would rather avoid the death of some loser and a criminal prosecution entirely if possible. Using non-lethal force before the pistol comes out at least shows that I reasonably tried to end the situation without bloodshed.

It can't hurt and it may avoid a lot of trouble.

[revance]

Yeah, KCshooter definitely has macho man syndrome since he is recommending you WALK AWAY.

While oldbillthundercheif is the one getting into so many fist fights and "petty squabbles" that if he were to use a gun "the streets would be bloody from here to Alaska".

I see which is the macho man. Non-macho men don't GET into fistfights, they don't give people any excuse to engage in a fist fight with them, and if they have indeed done everything in their power to ignore/get away from/leave the bar/avoid a confrontation with a drunk guy and he still attacks them... that is assault plain and simple

[kcshooter]

If you shoot an unarmed doofus you are not going to get that "followup story", kc. You think that backing up a few feet will make a prosecutor see things your way when there is a body involved?If you shoot an unarmed geek, you are going to trial. You may win, but I would rather avoid the death of some loser and a criminal prosecution entirely if possible. Using non-lethal force before the pistol comes out at least shows that I reasonably tried to end the situation without bloodshed.

You don't seem to be able to understand this. If a drunken idiot tries to start a fight, chances are there are going to be other people around, right? I live in a city, I don't think you can go anywhere without a witness. When a witness reports to the police they heard me loudly announce that I didn't want to fight him and turned to walk away at least once before I was attacked, there is not going to be a trial, there isn't even going to be a charge.

You need to brush up on the laws a bit. I know the laws of my state; here, I'll even requote it since you seem to have a problem reading the whole thread before you start making statements that are unfounded:

MO state law reads: A felony or murder is justifiable and not criminal when it is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a situation occasioned or developed through no fault of the actor.

Doesn't say I have to fight him first. Doesn't say I have to use pepper spray, (which is proven to work about 85% of the time, and may affect me also). It says if the stupid drunken jackass continues to try and cause me injury when I have not provoked him, I am justified in shooting him.

[kcshooter]

mattro said:

Sounds like KCshooter has a serious problem with machoism, probably watches too many tuff guy movies.

revance said:

Yeah, KCshooter definitely has macho man syndrome since he is recommending you WALK AWAY.

Revance,
No, no, he was being sarcastic, it's cool.

[revance]

Yeah, I know... I was just playing along with him. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

[mattro]

This is all good stuff. In everyones input, there is something to learn.

[revance]

What I want to know is how all of you guys are getting into these fights with drunk guys?!?!?

How friggin hard is it to stay out of a fight?

If you are getting into fights as often as you imply with your posts, it scares the heck out of me that you even HAVE guns. You really should just stick with the pepper spray, it would make me feel safer.


Again, I can see absolutely NO situation that would require pepper spray (and not lethal force) that you couldn't have avoided or walked away from!

[mattro]

lol, and agreed.

[CCMO]

So... If I didn't miss anything, so far exactly six people have actually responded to the OP's question. Three (kcshooter, revance and mattro) said a pistol is all they need, although mattro endorsed spray as the primary weapon for someone uncomfortable with using deadly force. Three (dawg23, Manedwolf, and oldbillthunderchief) spoke out in favor of carrying spray as a backup to a pistol. Nobody expressed an opinion in either direction about whether they recommend carrying a flashlight, although Desert01 did provide some additional research material.

Did I get that right? It was pretty hard to sift through all the rest of the words here, I might have missed something.

I think the OP has a good question. I wish that all the posters had at least answered it before continuing on with their topics of interest.

For what it's worth, my vote goes for the backup. My theory is that the more tools in my self-defense "toolbox," the better. I started carrying the original brand-name Mace (CN) in the 70's when it was the only thing available to civilians. Nowadays I carry DPS OC. I also carry a Surefire 120 lumen light, and a Kershaw folding knife. The knife gets the most use: After all, there's always another box or envelope that needs opening!

Always first assuming that I am unable - for whatever reason - to avoid a bad situation entirely...

A pistol is part of my daily carry, and I'm prepared to use it if that's what the situation requires. But I'd prefer to "discourage" an assailant without resorting to deadly force if possible. If I don't have any LTL tools available, I'm out of options from the beginning.

My two cents, YMMV.

[mattro]

I think a flashlight is incredibly important. Most confrontations will happen in low or no light (statistics). Blinding the perp and identifying the target are critical.

I have tactical lights next to bed, in carry bag, in every vehicle and multiple places thru house.

I do not carry a light daily because it is inconvenient. Gun, blade and phone is all i choose to carry everyday on my person.

Still see very little need for OC. I have some in my carry bag for the incredibly remote event it would be handy, but I choose to not carry it on me.

[kcshooter]

I think the OP has a good question. I wish that all the posters had at least answered it before continuing on with their topics of interest.

Now wait a minute, I answered it, the first reply was mine, saying how I didn't see a need for weighing myself down with either.

Everything else was a response to the attack of my opinion that followed.

I always try to answer a good question.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Yeah, I carry a Surefire light w/ 120 lumen lamp if I'm out at night. I also carry a nice pocketknife but that would be the last thing I would use in a bad situation.

[Manedwolf]

I have to wonder, with the people who carry gun AND pepperspray AND light AND knife...how they manage to do that without looking like an on-duty cop or an IT guy there to fix the network.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Buy pants with generous pockets and you won't have a problem.

Even if you have regular pockets a can of spray and a small pocketknife won't weigh you down too much. Toss your flashlight and cellphone in the other pocket and you won't even feel lopsided.

I've never been one to hang stuff on my belt. Aside from my holster, it's a no-cargo zone.

[revance]

Actually, my response wasn't even regarding OC as a backup. I was off topic and I apologize.

If you want to carry extra stuff I would think OC is a fine backup. My argument was against those who were promoting it as an either or option.

If you don't feel your life is in enough danger to use lethal force, you shouldn't be using pepper spray either... you should be leaving the threat.

What disturbed me most was the "I carry a gun for when I'm attacked and pepper spray for when I get myself into a bar brawl" mentality. You shouldn't be getting yourself into those brawls in the first place. They are 100% avoidable. Even if you didn't do anything to provoke it (even though you PROBABLY exchanged words etc.), you can walk away. Anything else isn't a "bar brawl" but rather an assault and should be treated as such (very seriously). If you want to use OC in that situation, that is fine, but don't say your gun is for you being attacked and your OC is for when you couldn't keep yourself out of a fight.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Jesus... none of you guys were ever young, stupid, and tough?

Fights happen. I've done my best to avoid them for the last handfull of decades, but I refuse to cower at home when I feel like a beverage and some lively conversation.

I don't start fights, I run from them... but I don't run so well now. I've never sprayed anyone with the vile gunk but I would give it a shot before shooting someone if the guy was unarmed and I couldn't get away.

The use of firearms is the last resort. This is a question of personal morality more than law. There are situations where I would be legally justified in using deadly force, but I wouldn't feel right about it. I don't consider an unarmed man to be fair game for perforation until I fear for my life and am unable to escape the furball. I don't consider common scuffles to be, in general, life-threatening.

Common scuffles present threats of bodily injury. This is where the spray comes in. If it can buy me enough time to get away, I would use it to avoid fisticuffs. There ARE situations where the spray is acceptable, but lethal force would not be right. This is my personal moral standard, not a legal standard. If y'all could live with yourselves after shooting someone because you were afraid of getting punched a few times, it's your legal right I guess.

I'm not going to kill anyone unless I am pretty sure I will die if I don't. The spray would be a desperate attempt to stop events before they get that bad.

I've explained myself enough. If you don't get it by now, more words won't help.

[Plink]

If you don't feel your life is in enough danger to use lethal force, you shouldn't be using pepper spray either... you should be leaving the threat.

I'm afraid I disagree on that one. A scuffle could result in an attacker gaining access to your handgun. Leaving the threat isn't always an option. Pepper spray might just discourage someone enough for you to get away. When I started carrying, I realized that my brawling days were over. I'm not going to risk someone getting to my pistol, and I'm not about to shoot some beligerant drunk. I think anyone who carries should strongly consider carrying pepper spray also.

[Lurper]

The problem with that train of thought is that you assume that:
1. OC may stop the attack.
2. Getting punched is not going to incapacitate you.
3. The BG is just going to be satisfied with beating you up.
4. Deploying oc will not compromise your tactical position if it doesn't work.
5. A punch is not lethal force.

None of which are necessarily true.
Anyone who assaults you when you are armed is a threat to your life. If you have tried to retreat, warned them that you are armed, warned them that you will defend yourself and they still assault you, how can any reasonable person not think such an assault was life threatening? If you are jumped w/out warning, that is certainly life threatening.
Even in the People's Republic of New York, Bernie Goetz would have been acquitted if it hadn't been for the "you don't look so bad, here's another" shot.

One punch can incapcitate you. Once you are incapacitated, you and your gun are fair game. I could live easier with the fact that I killed an unarmed person who assualted me than I could knowing they took my weapon and killed other innocent people. I would suggest that if you are uncomfortable with the idea of having to shoot someone who is unarmed, perhaps OC is all you should carry.

[WhiteFeather93]

Its getting pretty deep. I refuse to be drug into another argument reguarding the amount of force any non leo should use, why and when. However I will answer the original question.

A surefire light is a great thing to carry along. It was recomended at a class that each person carry two knives, a flashlight, OC spray, and a sidearm. Now when I first heard that I thought to myself. OMG thats a lot of stuff to carry. But when you break it down and find the items that work for you its amazing how useful these items truly are.

I carry two knives. One small, super light folder, and a larger more durable folder. The little one comes in handy for little tasks like cutting a piece of paper with some information on it. To removing thread and what have you. The larger one I can say I have not used yet (thankfully). But because of the second knife I don't have to worry about dulling the blade.

I keep a small LED flashlight in my back pocket. Its not a brand name anyone would reconize but it gets the job done. And I must say I use that light more than anything I carry with me including my keys! Keeping a flashlight is the smartest thing I believe I do. I don't plan on using it as a said "weapon" but for me its more of a tool. It can assist in clearing a room but I believe in the cop therory of turning the lights on!

I also carry OC spray. http://www.spitfire.us/about.htm This unit is small fits on your key chain and is very very effective. I have been sprayed with this particular unit a couple time for work. And I am a 5'9 215lbs man. It works! And I have no trouble carrying it. Now as far as choosing it over my sidearm. You have to assess each situation differently. I have read so many incounters on this site alone that call for something LTL but it seems everyone forgets. So I'll give you a scenario.

You have a neighbor whom you have known for 10 or more years. You guys have picknicks and parties together all the time. One night he comes stumbling drunk from a taxi to your house. He knocks and demands to be let in. You explain he lives next door and offer to escort him over but he picks up a baseball bat left out by your kids and begins swinging wildly. Now I don't know about you but I am sure not going to kill my neighbor because he's drunk and isn't fully aware of whats going on. But I little bit of spray to calm him down isn't going to leave him permenently affected. He might be pissed the next day but its something we can get over.

Now remove the 10 years part. Same scene but now you just moved in. You don't know this guy, and now you are seriously threatened. Now I'm not going to argue that deadly force isn't called for. But I think a lot people forget that when you pull that trigger you alter someones life. Or the lives of his or her family. I wouldn't want someones little girl or boy to grow up without a mother or father because I was justified.

That is the best answer I have for you. I think carrying all the above is paramount. I chose the responsibility of owning and carrying a sidearm. And that is not a responsibility I take lightly. If and when there comes a time that I have to take someones life to save the life of someone I love or my own. I will make sure that I have made the right decision and that all other options have been exausted. And the day I stop having that mind set is the day I put down my gun for good.

[revance]

Originally Posted by oldbillthundercheif

Jesus... none of you guys were ever young, stupid, and tough?

I guess this is why we have a difference in opinion.

The answer is NO.

I have never gotten myself into a brawl, I have never put myself into a situation where anyone would have an excuse to throw a punch at me. I have already mentioned I am a small guy. If some 6' 220lb drunk guy randomly decided it would be fun to beat me, it would definitely be a threat on my life and I sure as heck wouldn't have given him reason.

I would "cower at home" before putting myself in a confrontational situation.

Bottom line, if you ARE the kind who gets into brawls like this, you shouldn't be carrying lethal force at all. Now I see why so many states don't allow carrying in establishments that sell liquor.

It seems wrong to me that anyone would get themselves into a fistfight with an unarmed drunk guy when they KNOW they are armed with pepper spray and a gun. If you are carrying pepper spray and a gun, you have a moral obligation to look like a wussy and a coward rather than enter a confrontation.

P.S. I have been punched once. The guy didn't like I was ignoring his insults. He stood there waiting for me to swing back. I walked away like a coward. I could have thrown insults back and swung back and then would have been totally justified in spraying him, but I chose to WALK AWAY.

[Manedwolf]

Nice strawmen flying around. Who mentioned "bar brawls"?

If you spend any time in urban areas, if you go to a RESTAURANT on a Saturday night, there's always a chance that some drunk spilling out of a bar will decide to show off for their friends, or decide that they want to annoy your girlfriend.

And what would you do then? Shoot them? Or OC them in the face and call for the police while they're staggering off?

You see a thug hitting a woman. What would you do? Shoot him? Step in and maybe get knifed? Or pepperspray him?

Some people don't think, it seems.

[Lurper]

You have a neighbor whom you have known for 10 or more years. You guys have picknicks and parties together all the time. One night he comes stumbling drunk from a taxi to your house. He knocks and demands to be let in. You explain he lives next door and offer to escort him over but he picks up a baseball bat left out by your kids and begins swinging wildly. Now I don't know about you but I am sure not going to kill my neighbor because he's drunk and isn't fully aware of whats going on. But I little bit of spray to calm him down isn't going to leave him permenently affected. He might be pissed the next day but its something we can get over.

Aside from the extremely minute possibilty of that happening and the fact that OC has been shown to be significantly less effective on those who are drunk, high or insane. You are saying that your neighbor's intent is not to kill you with the bat? Drunkeness is no excuse. I don't care if it is my brother, if he is trying to kill me, he dies. I am not advocating simply shooting anyone, more often than not, you have the option to retreat. In your scenario WF, you could call 911, take yourself and your family into your safe room and wait for the police. You could also just run away.

OC, a flashlight or other LTL is no guarantee that you will not have to shoot someone anyway. They are just as likely to not end the confrontation and put you in a worse tactical position than before you tried them. Also, they may cause you to become involved in a situation that you perhaps should not have becuase you thought OC would end it and it didn't. Carrying a firearm is a grave responsibility. It requires that you keep you emotions in check and that its use be reserved for a last resort. Entering into a fist fight while you are carrying is putting yourself and everyone around you at serious risk. You should walk away. If your assailalnt blocks your retreat, deadly force is justifiable.

[jhenry]

Yet another relevent topic and question deconstructs into a urinating contest because there are differing views on a personal decision.

Might I suggest posting answers as well as pro and con debates like grownups and leaving this type of schoolyard nonsense somewhere else.

People log on here to learn and share. Anti's also log on here to bolster their preconceived notions that gun owners are immature fools. What would either group learn from this thread or any other that has had to be locked by the administrators due to childish behavior.

You guys can do better than this.

Most of the thread WAS better than this.

[kcshooter]

Some people don't think, it seems

Yeah, I know what you mean.


I plan to protect myself as I see fit, within the law. I question not my own morals for this, but the morals of the one who is attacking me, especially someone who will attack me after I try to walk away. If I am attacked, I will take the life of the attacker to defend my own. (Or others if need be and doing so doesn't endanger myself.)

If you guys are all so dead set against actually defending yourself with deadly force, maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.
If you think OC is needed, then you should only carry OC.