How to Properly Polish a Feed Ramp

[dahermit]

I don't get it...maybe someone can explain to me what the logic is for polishing a feed ramp when there is no malfunction. The original post seems to suggest that it is a routine and desirable procedure. Why would anyone "fix" something that is not "broken"?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by dahermit

I don't get it...maybe someone can explain to me what the logic is for polishing a feed ramp when there is no malfunction. The original post seems to suggest that it is a routine and desirable procedure....

Some people seem to think so, but it is not. I have and have had many completely reliable semi-automatics, including many 1911s. I've never polished or had polished a feed ramp and never have had any reason to do so. If a gun functions reliably there is no reason to polish the feed ramp.

I've heard of reliable semi-automatics turned into boat anchors by unnecessary polishing of feed ramps.

[4V50 Gary]

I was taught that smooth was more important than shiny. My instructor was Bob Dunlap at Susanville, CA.

[Hunter Customs]

Good info from Bill DeShivs and HiBC, it's evident they know of what they speak. The last line that Frank Ettin wrote about reliable guns being turned into boat anchors has a lot of truth in it also. I was at a gun show displaying some of the custom guns I built when a guy steps up to the table and starts telling how the feed ramps in my guns could be improved if the feed ramps were high polished with a Dremel. Ron my friend working the table with me turns to look at me because he knew what was coming. I smiled and politely told the gentleman I thought the Dremel was an excellent tool as it alone got me and many other gunsmiths more work then any other tool made. The moral of the story is if it ain't broke don't fix it!

[Old Stony]

There is not a thing wrong with a shiny feed ramp and it's not going to ruin a pistol...unless a person removes a lot of metal or changes angles of the ramp in the process. Properly done it is little more than cosmetic and a smooth or shiny surface on the ramp is not the end of the firearm.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Old Stony

There is not a thing wrong with a shiny feed ramp and it's not going to ruin a pistol...unless a person removes a lot of metal or changes angles of the ramp in the process. Properly done it is little more than cosmetic and a smooth or shiny surface on the ramp is not the end of the firearm.

You miss the points:

1. There's nothing particularly right about a shiny feed ramp. The feed ramp doesn't have to be shiny for the pistol to function properly.
   
   
2. If a pistol is reliable there is no functional benefit to polishing the feed ramp.
   
   
3. In a pistol that is reliable polishing the feed ramp is cosmetic. And, of course, since the feed ramp is internal one needs to consider the value of having a pretty feed ramp which one can't usually see.
   
   
4. And if one decides to polish the feed ramp of a reliable pistol he risks taken off too much metal and/or changing the angle -- turning a reliable pistol into an unreliable pistol -- for some intangible, modest cosmetic gain.
   
   
5. "Too much metal" doesn't have to be a lot of metal, and a deleterious change of angle doesn't have to be much. It's easy to take metal off, but very hard to put it back.
   
   
6. If that's a good trade off to you, by all means have at it. But stay away from my guns.

[HiBC]

Mr Stony, I understand and accept that polishing the feed ramp is on the menu for a classic "semi-auto tune up". My Wilson Combat 1911 video "How To" course covers polishing the feed ramp. I understand the thought behind it.
I'll even agree that DONE RIGHT it may be of some benefit.
I'm saying "You are not wrong" with reservations.

Problem is everyone with a Dremel is looking for someplace on a gun to use it.
And,to a degree,for the pistol smith,polishing the ramp helps pay the electric bill.Its a service to offer.

And IMO,while a hacked in feed ramp with transverse cutter marks (or steel case gouges in an alloy frame) present a potential problem...in fact past a smooth,good machined tool finish,the step to "shiny polish" is a bit over rated.

The role of the feed ramp in a properly functioning 1911 is over rated.

We might look to the feed ramp to remedy nose diving rounds,but the root cause is better magazines,probably,or cartridge length or? but odds are the polish will be a mediocre cure.

I have seen some pretty "hack" feed ramps on factory guns. Croation Springfield mil-Spec comes to mind. It looks like someone on a line has a die grinder and a barrel of 1911 frames. The job is "Doing the feed ramp"
Problem is,off center,asymetrical,and if you do a midline section of the ramp,the profile resembles a pronounce "Alfred Hitchcock" style beer belly.
Which means the lower meplat of a hollow point runs into a near vertical wall at about the feedramps navel.

I asked a respectable 1911 TFL builder about this,and he gave me the Marvel suggested ramp angle. With a Bridgeport,I corrected the geometry,then lightly stone my good tool finish. And,I confess,I used a fiber end brush and a bit of diamond compound with my Foredom to put a soft,satin luster on the ramp.

The key is,I maintained the .030 step transition step from the ramp to the barrel throat. Its a common,classic error to Dremelize enough steel off to ruin this step. Then the bullet catches on the barrel.So people grind off barrel to "correct" it. More case is unsupported.
I know,you don't do that. Cool.

But it IS a common "1911 Dremel Syndrome" .......IIRC,smebody even made a "weld in repair feed ramp" to correct it,it was so common.

Another key bit of wit:If you don't know what you are doing,don't"

[fredvon4]

I am not a trained gun smith but have 4 decades of experience
I am a trained IC engine port n polish guy
I have polished a LOT of car and motor cycle parts... all metals
I have an intensive collection of polishing tools materials....including a lot of BIG $$ in stones of a lot of hardness and shapes
I can still hot rod many .049 2 stroke Glow engines to produce 1000 to 1500 RPM over stock with some of my techniques

I do know the ramp angle and length are critical
I would never change a chamber bore without the correct tooling
I do know that both the CZ-75b and Taurus PT 1911 feed ramps...under a 10 loupe showed modest machining grooves causing drag and some semi frequent failure to feed with certain ammo

Decision... send to gun smith with description of problem and sample ammo--- or try to fix by self

Fix by self over 5 years and 4500+ rounds ago

Fully agree.... do NOT do this unless 100% confident in skills and equipment... or unwilling to buy a new fire arm if you destroy yours

MY own worst case was within my comfort zone

[Old Stony]

Mr. Ettin.......one of us is missing some points, and I'm afraid it's not me. I did not recommend polishing feed ramps or recommend making anything shiny inside of a firearm. My statements were just to the point that a shiny surface..properly done.. is not harmful to the firearm. I agree with other statements here that the transition area into the chamber of a 1911 should not be shortened, but my statements were not of an argumentative nature. I guess my "ignorance" of firearms must be irritating to you, but you can rest assured I will not be anywhere near your firearms.
4V50....Mr. Dunlap was right in his comments about smooth vs. shiny. Other than his style of haircuts, he is very knowledgeable about many things.

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

That's nice, but does anyone else consider you an expert? More importantly, how many recognized experts consider you an expert.

Proclaiming oneself an expert (or any number of other things) doesn't mean anything. What's meaningful is when others who have the knowledge to judge decide that someone is an expert (or any number of other things).

Sorry Friend, Im not one to play the My dick is bigger than yours game because its not my style. ive never had the need to brag and say im good or that im the best at anything because i let my work speak for itself. but i will play along since i am new to the community. Lets see people that know me in the industry that would not have any issues vouching for the quality of my work or Knowledge in gunsmithing. You can talk to Ben over at Boresight Solutions, The guys over a Rebellion Firearms LLC, AWA Gunsmithing, The Gunocologist, Jeremiah over at Gunslingers, just to name a few of my good friends in the industry, or if youd like Miami-Dade Police department, Opa-Locka Police, Palm Beach Police, Hialeah Police & Swat, Broward's Sherif Dept & Swat, A few ATF agents that were clients of mine, Just to name some of my old clientele base. so yes i feel like i have a bit of experience under my belt sir i dont generally talk out of my ass nor do i believ i know it all as none of us really do and we learn new things everyday and thats what makes us better.

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by dahermit

I don't get it...maybe someone can explain to me what the logic is for polishing a feed ramp when there is no malfunction. The original post seems to suggest that it is a routine and desirable procedure. Why would anyone "fix" something that is not "broken"?

the reason behind polishing a feed ramp is to prevent malfunctions like feeding issues due to a rough feed ramp where the ammunition can sometimes get stuck on the feed ramp on its way up to the chamber in some cases. although not very common it does happen and this just helps prevent it. its like going to a doctor for a annual check up your not sick or have any issues but you do it to prevent any issues with yourself. again its a personal choice.

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by 4V50 Gary

I was taught that smooth was more important than shiny. My instructor was Bob Dunlap at Susanville, CA.

one of the best Gunsmiths in the industry in my opinion. He has the knowledge that many gunsmiths wish to have and he is a advisor for many manufactures. i met him a few times. awesome person.

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by Hunter Customs

Good info from Bill DeShivs and HiBC, it's evident they know of what they speak. The last line that Frank Ettin wrote about reliable guns being turned into boat anchors has a lot of truth in it also. I was at a gun show displaying some of the custom guns I built when a guy steps up to the table and starts telling how the feed ramps in my guns could be improved if the feed ramps were high polished with a Dremel. Ron my friend working the table with me turns to look at me because he knew what was coming. I smiled and politely told the gentleman I thought the Dremel was an excellent tool as it alone got me and many other gunsmiths more work then any other tool made. The moral of the story is if it ain't broke don't fix it!

I agree with you i had various run away guns come into my shop from both people trying to perform the 25 cent trigger job on their guns at home based off crap they say on youtube and i have had guns come from other gunsmiths that have had sear engagement issues because they decided it would be a great idea to polish the sear faces with a dremel rounding the darn thing over. we had a joke for a while that they should make people buying dremels fill out a 4473 lolz

[Old Stony]

Good responses and points well taken!

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by GorillaGunworks

Sorry Friend, Im not one to play the My dick is bigger than yours game because its not my style.....

It was actually a rhetorical question since really your answer wouldn't mean much. We're not in a position to check your references or verify your credentials. And a number of well known and regarded members here have taken issue, citing their technical bases, with a number of things you've posted.

The real point is that someone calling himself an expert (which apparently is your style) is a false note -- it just doesn't ring true. It's not anyone's place to call himself an expert, or a nice guy, or honest, or handsome, etc. Those sorts of assessment are for others to make.

[HiBC]

This link will take you to the OP's 1911 trigger job on a Kimber.

I'll let it speak for itself without comment.

If you don't have a lot of time,I found the footage at around 5:00,17:00 through 20:00 interesting.

https://youtu.be/6Kdo-C2pUgc

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

It was actually a rhetorical question since really your answer wouldn't mean much. We're not in a position to check your references or verify your credentials. And a number of well known and regarded members here have taken issue, citing their technical bases, with a number of things you've posted.

The real point is that someone calling himself an expert (which apparently is your style) is a false note -- it just doesn't ring true. It's not anyone's place to call himself an expert, or a nice guy, or honest, or handsome, etc. Those sorts of assessment are for others to make.

Got it, i guess it was a misunderstanding tends to happen alot on forums lol. Sorry bud

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by HiBC

This link will take you to the OP's 1911 trigger job on a Kimber.

I'll let it speak for itself without comment.

If you don't have a lot of time,I found the footage at around 5:00,17:00 through 20:00 interesting.

https://youtu.be/6Kdo-C2pUgc

Honestly i dont know if your being sarcastic or serious at this point.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by HiBC

...I'll let it speak for itself without comment....

Help me here please. He says around 5:00 while using an Arkansas stone, "Remember, we're not removing any material. We're just cleaning up the surface...."

I've always understood that an abrasive, like an Arkansas stone, does remove material, albeit in the case of a fine abrasive like an Arkansas stone very little. Is my understanding incorrect?

[HiBC]

Yes,Mr Ettin,they cut.
A basic sear jig can be had from Brownells for about $25.00

I went for the Marvel,myself. I don't think most folks can feel/maintain the flat of a sear engagement surface on a stone.

I suspect cold bluing the surface before stoning would be enlightening.

In my trade/profession,opinion did not cut it. That's why toolmaking,machining,etc has measuring tools/metrology. For my home use,thats why I recently bought a Browne and Sharpe toolmakers microscope.
30X,protractor head,crosshair reticle,and X-Y micrometer heads about 1 1/2 in in dia,direct reading .0001. Nice tool. I can tell you if the Arkansas stone took off .0002. I can also tell you if its square,or rounded.I can measure the primary and secondary sear angles,and measure the lengths.
If you don't measure,you don't know.

I use a sear jig.I never went to Trinidad Gunsmith school,but I suspect they teach "Use a sear jig"

As a kid I kept my Buck folding Hunter pretty sharp with nothing but a hard Arkansas stone. The stone does cut.

[GorillaGunworks]

help me here please. He says around 5:00 while using an Arkansas stone, "Remember, we're not removing any material. We're just cleaning up the surface...."

I've always understood that an abrasive, like an Arkansas stone, does remove material, albeit in the case of a fine abrasive like an Arkansas stone very little. Is my understanding incorrect?

Yes correct the use of a Arkansas stone will remove material undoubtedly even though its a fine stone. the point i was trying to make was that im not trying to remove large amounts of material, only enough to clean up the surface. i should have been clearer when speaking. im new to the whole video thing brother, mistakes in words will be made we are all human here. but its great to see that instead of helping each other out on the forums we resort to bashing each other. Nice, the whole reason i started doing the videos was to try and help people out. But its cool i will just keep doing my own thing. and invite anyone interested to watch.

[HiBC]

Gorrilla,you go back and re-read my posts to you and think about whether I was trying to teach you or bash you.

Whether you choose to learn is up to you.

I find it hard to believe they taught you to stone sears without a sear jig at Trinidad.

Its my opinion that your youtube videos teach very questionable practices.

That's not bashing. Its honest.I don't know yet whether you need more skills,or a different attitude toward workmanship,but IMO,you aren't ready.Not with any of my guns.

Take a deep breath.If you sincerely want to learn,this is a good place.

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Yes,Mr Ettin,they cut.
A basic sear jig can be had from Brownells for about $25.00

I went for the Marvel,myself. I don't think most folks can feel/maintain the flat of a sear engagement surface on a stone.

I suspect cold bluing the surface before stoning would be enlightening.

In my trade/profession,opinion did not cut it. That's why toolmaking,machining,etc has measuring tools/metrology. For my home use,thats why I recently bought a Browne and Sharpe toolmakers microscope.
30X,protractor head,crosshair reticle,and X-Y micrometer heads about 1 1/2 in in dia,direct reading .0001. Nice tool. I can tell you if the Arkansas stone took off .0002. I can also tell you if its square,or rounded.I can measure the primary and secondary sear angles,and measure the lengths.
If you don't measure,you don't know.

I use a sear jig.I never went to Trinidad Gunsmith school,but I suspect they teach "Use a sear jig"

As a kid I kept my Buck folding Hunter pretty sharp with nothing but a hard Arkansas stone. The stone does cut.

Yes i know jigs are pretty cheap, i own 2 different styles of jigs. i just decided not to use them for the video as i tend to use them only when changing engagement angles. and yes you can use cold blue, Dykem fluid, even a sharpy to mark the surface and use as a guide. and yes i know Hard Arkansas stones cut see my other response ^^^ i wast trying to say that i was not trying to remove a lot of material simply clean up the surface a bit. again i am new to the whole video thing and i need to work on my speech a bit better while working. i am more use to working on something and not have to explain myself while doing it so its a learning curve. and yes in Gunsmithing school they teach you both ways with and without jigs. obviously they most practical and safest way would be use the jig but again i only use when changing angles because a lot more room for error and buying replacement parts can become expensive quickly.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by GorillaGunworks

...its great to see that instead of helping each other out on the forums we resort to bashing each other...

It's not about bashing people. It his about helping the people who read these forums and other media on the Internet get good information. That's what they come for.

But there's a lot of bad information out in cyberspace, because it's so easy to put information out there and make it available to everyone in the world with Internet access.

These discussions help test the validity and utility of some of the information that gets sent through the ether.

Originally Posted by GorillaGunworks

...i am more use to working on something and not have to explain myself while doing it so its a learning curve. and yes in Gunsmithing school they teach you both ways with and without jigs. obviously they most practical and safest way would be use the jig....

And perhaps someone who has spent considerable time perfecting his skills can do a lot of things free hand that others need a jig for. But YouTube videos go to a large audience, including novices who haven't perfected many of the "hands-on" skills of seasoned practitioners.

I like to cook and have done so for many years. I prepare hollandaise and bearnaise sauces over direct heat -- although every cookbook will tell you to use a double boiler. That's because cookbooks are written for both the experienced cook and the beginner. A beginner will generally not have the skills to prepare certain egg yolk thickened sauces over direct heat, and when he tries he will often get scrambled eggs instead of a smooth, thick, delicious sauce.

[GorillaGunworks]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

It's not about bashing people. It his about helping the people who read these forums and other media on the Internet get good information. That's what they come for.

But there's a lot of bad information out in cyberspace, because it's so easy to put information out there and make it available to everyone in the world with Internet access.

These discussions help test the validity and utility of some of the information that gets sent through the ether.

And perhaps someone who has spent considerable time perfecting his skills can do a lot of things free hand that others need a jig for. But YouTube videos go to a large audience, including novices who haven't perfected many of the "hands-on" skills of seasoned practitioners.

I like to cook and have done so for many years. I prepare hollandaise and bearnaise sauces over direct heat -- although every cookbook will tell you to use a double boiler. That's because cookbooks are written for both the experienced cook and the beginner. A beginner will generally not have the skills to prepare certain egg yolk thickened sauces over direct heat, and when he tries he will often get scrambled eggs instead of a smooth, thick, delicious sauce.

Point Taken Frank and you are right, i need to gear my videos more towards the beginners and use all available aids to simplify the work and teach better and safer methods. Thank you.