Concealed Carry / Work / Security work + Distance x DA/SA vs Striker/SAO

[Tactical Jackalope]

Oh, hello everyone.

Carry gun is a P30L without the safety/decocker to rub my thumb knuckle raw. All is well in the neighborhood.

Going to be installing Trijicon HDs, a Gray Guns reset kit, and a nickel plated sear spring in due time.

Hope everyone is well!
As for the distanced, still going to practice the DA pull at distance but for now I'll be pulling the hammer if the need should ever arise.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Update:

We're good to go. P30L with the Trijicon HD XR sights, Gray Gun Short Reset Kit, Nickel plated sear spring, Match hammer spring @ 10lbs, and light trigger spring.

Most importantly, a LOT of dry and live fire since the original thread. Hands healed up very well. Right thumb nail looks funny and feels funny if you press on top and left hand is fine. All is in working order.

Now, I'm effortlessly as good or maybe better with my Glock 17. Which is stock other than Wilson Combat night sights and an Overwatch Precision Falx trigger. This uses a factory Glock OEM trigger bar. All that's different is the shoe.

Both guns are capable in my hands of head shots at 25 yards and center of chest hits at 25+ hards. It takes a little more effort with the P30L in Double-Action. But it's still manageable and of course, easy in Single-Action.

Another thing that I realized as well, is the parts do better and better on the HK once broken in. The trigger pull feels a lot more smooth than when I first installed all the parts.

Also had a one on one session on marksmanship at a local range. I stepped away from that realm for a few years to do the tactical, force on force, up close and personal gun fighting, that I didn't keep honing in on my distance marksmanship.

Feeling good.

[FireForged]

You seem to be focused on plenty of fan-boy ad-ons and go fast goodies. Have you learned to shoot yet?

It seems like it has been about a year since I first responded to this post. In your first post you seem concerned with what you can and cant do with a DA/SA gun. Have you addressed the skills issue? I say that because I am a proponent of skills over gadgets and wiz-bang goodies.

I have got nothing against a person hanging a bunch of stuff off their gun, buying cool knives and tactical this or that. Its all good.. but skills come first in my book. I say this as a person who runs a bone stock gun .

[USNRet93]

Question from the (relatively inexperienced), peanut gallery.....
When the SHTF, are you going to notice whether or not the trigger is ‘smooth’ or not? Certainly at the range where each shot is slow and calculated but with a pant load of adrenaline pumping, is being familiar with gun, regardless of trigger ‘feel’, gonna work? I think so..doubt anybody will notice things like ‘recoil’ or trigger ‘smoothness’. If gun goes bang is object.

[FireForged]

If a person is striving to be an absolute marksman with a handgun and shoot a jelly bean off of a golf tee, I get it. Other than that.. I call it tire kicking.

[Tactical Jackalope]

You seem to be focused on plenty of fan-boy ad-ons and go fast goodies. Have you learned to shoot yet?

No. Never picked up a gun before. I'm afraid of them. Haven't fired one before either. I just buy stuff here and there. Then I go online and sum up someone's entire existence based on a coupe of posts. The usual.

I'm better with my bow and arrow. That's my real EDC. Just trying to fit in.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by USNRet93

Question from the (relatively inexperienced), peanut gallery.....
When the SHTF, are you going to notice whether or not the trigger is ‘smooth’ or not? Certainly at the range where each shot is slow and calculated but with a pant load of adrenaline pumping, is being familiar with gun, regardless of trigger ‘feel’, gonna work? I think so..doubt anybody will notice things like ‘recoil’ or trigger ‘smoothness’. If gun goes bang is object.

Your observation is valid.

I shoot mostly 1911s and, because my view is that any gun I own could potentially be used in a self defense situation, I tune the triggers on all them to around five pounds (which is more or less a consensus minimum trigger pull weight for a single action pistol). At the range, when concentrating on accuracy, that five pounds often feels rather "heavy." When shooting in "practical shooting" competition, it doesn't feel heavy at all, and I'm not even aware of it.

Yet, I've had occasions when I have tried out demo 1911s from "name" makers that shipped with triggers in the three to three and a half pound range. When shooting those for accuracy, because my muscles are so accustomed to my five-pound triggers, the guns with lighter triggers usually seem like they go off "before they're supposed to."

t's going to get interesting, because the range owner has been discussing starting up a bullseye league. If he does, I'll probably give it a try. In that case, I know my five-pound triggers won't cut it, so I'll have to pick a gun and tune it down to around three pounds (or less, if I can avoid hammer follow). I don't know what effect that will have on shooting the other guns.

[FireForged]

No. Never picked up a gun before. I'm afraid of them. Haven't fired one before either. I just buy stuff here and there. Then I go online and sum up someone's entire existence based on a coupe of posts. The usual.

I'm better with my bow and arrow. That's my real EDC. Just trying to fit in

Interesting

[Tactical Jackalope]

Right? Can you show me?

It'd be my first time.

[FireForged]

Brother.. I offered you some advice when you first posted your query. My advice was to get some training that may help alleviate your concerns regarding sa/da guns. I could be completely wrong but your continued narrative seems to be dominated by go-fast goodies rather than training. I was simply asking if you have received any real training since last we spoke.

Perhaps not with you but there seems to be a developing culture that seeks competent via gadgetry and not learned skill or knowledge. I do not know anything about you and my question (although pointed) was intended to help me decide what direction you are moving in.

If by chance you have already received competent training or have practical experience, I may have simply misjudged you based on post #1. If that is the case, I will politely remove myself from this thread. If you are open to a training discussion or other conceptual issues surrounding lawful self defense, I am willing to help.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I have been active in the training community and have been taking classes since 2008. Both for work related jobs and for personal reasons.

This thread began after two injuries on both hands around this time last year.

Also had to sell off a majority of my inventory because of financial and personal reasons. So during my downsizing I was looking for and found something in what I thought was the middle ground of a Glock and SIG Sauer pistol.

All this has been was seeking information on what different people have done to achieve a certain trigger pull, what methods use for distance shots, etc. Nothing more. I don't understand the need to always sum up someone's entire existence and spit on it based on a couple of questions when in person it would simply be answered or not. It's baffling.

[TunnelRat]

I don't really see his comment as "spitting on your entire existence". To be frank that seems a bit dramatic. There is absolutely a tendency among people to try to buy better performance rather than train themselves to a higher level. If that doesn't apply to you then frankly just ignore it. I have had instructors that would answer questions with questions for the sole purpose of making me pause and evaluate what I was asking. It can be hard to swallow at times, but it's not always without reason.

At the same time, when someone asks for advice on a topic people can just answer it rather than defaulting to the, "Indian not the arrow", type arguments. I shot DA/SA for a number of years and very heavily at the time. Swapping hammer springs and shortening resets were absolutely something people did and still do. Now maybe we do so because we're all trying to buy our way to better performance. Or maybe at times the differences that result are noticeable. For myself bringing the DA down to 8-9 lb did help at longer distances for that first shot and as long as it didn't affect reliability, who cared? For reset, I have absolutely outrun the reset on HK P-series pistols doing defensive drills. At the time the GG kit wasn't available, but I sure would have tried it if it was. Again, if function is preserved who cares?

In the end for me personally I realized I was spending more time trying to get around the DA than it was really helping me. I switched to striker fired "safe-action" type pistols. I will admit that the constant DA practice made me a better shooter, and bringing out the S&W Model 19 and shooting a box with that has a noticeable impact on my following shooting that day with a Glock 19.

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[fastbolt]

If we step aside from debating the differences in "improving" certain aspects of the gear, there's something else to be said to training to the harder limits imposed by some gear configurations.

Improvements in gear may help someone use that particular piece of gear better (even at the cost of not really helping improve "performance" if you use other gear).

However, focusing on training to more demanding limits has been said to help reduce the potential for experiencing confusion under stress, as well as help improve our ability to focus under increasingly more demanding conditions. Arguably, both are benefits to be desired, whether the conditions we may face are "easy", or frantic, chaotic and dynamic.

[fastbolt]

Sorry to hear about the injury and surgeries to your hands. Having suffered injuries that affected my ability to shoot off and on over the years, I can empathize.

If you must change your gear to accommodate the state of any physical impairment, that's something for you to decide (consulting with doctor, etc).

That said, making 25-50+ yard shots using a DA pistol is a skill, and no different in many respects than learning and developing the skill to do so using a DA revolver.

If your existing skillset (sans effects of injuries) isn't sufficiently developed to allow you to exert proper trigger control to make 25-50+ yd DA shots, ask yourself why.

The answer may involve seeking the help of an accomplished DA revolver, or TDA pistol shooter. If you don't know what you don't know, then merely burning ammo may not achieve the desired effect. You don't want to "practice" whatever bad habits or wrong techniques and really ingrain them, do you?

Don't feel all alone, though, as a lot of pistol shooters who were never required to build their handgunning foundation skillset mastering shooting DA revolvers obviously also lack the benefits of having learned and mastered DA trigger strokes on revolvers.

I came to TDA (DA/SA) pistols the long way, myself. I grew up learning to shoot SA pistols and SA revolvers, and didn't have an interest in DA revolvers until I was 18. Then I had to really focus my attention on DA revolvers when I entered LE and was required to carry them on-duty. It was just another learning, training and practice thing.

Just about the time I was really happy with all of my revolvers, my job required that I transition over to TDA pistols.

Fortunately, my skills shooting SA pistols (1911's) and both SA & DA revolvers were able to be applied to learning to use TDA pistols. More training and practice ... and this happened just as I was assigned to learn to become a firearms instructor at my agency. This involved having to shoot that initial first DA shot at distances up to 50yds on courses-of-fire, including during night ranges in the dark (using handheld flashlight illumination to quickly ID the threat target), and there were no "throw-away" shots.

In more recent years my interest returned to snub nose revolvers, mostly meaning DAO snubs (although I still like traditional DA revolvers with exposed hammers, as well). While the emphasis on periodic training drills and quals meant DA shots at relatively close distances (ranging from 3-10yd & 3-25yd courses-of-fire), I still liked to take my DA & DAO snubs and shoot them out to 40-50yds on the steel and paper silhouettes.

While doing so the thought of encountering an "active" shooter was in the back of my mind, sure, but it was mostly to continue to assess my "basics" while shooting DA/DAO guns and make sure my skills didn't degrade by only shooting them at close range.

Now, your choice of TDA pistols is your own, of course. I always tended to prefer S&W 3rd gen and SIG Classic TDA pistols, as well as the outstanding Walther 99 design in their Anti-Stress action.

I never particularly cared for the HK USP's, myself, although I did rather fancy the trigger and grip ergo's of a HK P9S 45 I owned and carried for a while many years ago. I traded it away because parts are difficult to find (and I'm not a HK pistol armorer) and leather wasn't common. Nice pistol, though. Accurate, and with interesting (well designed) sights and an acceptable trigger.

FWIW, even if you constantly practice "dry-fire", it's probably better to make sure you're not using that opportunity to really ingrain unknowingly improper habits while doing so. Does your local range(s) have any revolver shooters or TDA pistols shooters who successfully compete, or are retired LE PPC shooters, who might be willing to give you some pointers after watching you shoot? Sometimes it might be some little things you can pick up that help give you the results you desire.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Yeah....This isn't going anywhere..

[FireForged]

I think there is alot of good data in this thread from many sources. Overall, I would consider this thread rather productive.

[OhioGuy]

What kind of scenario is imagined in which it even makes sense for a defender to take a shot down a 30-50 yard aisle of a store, for instance? The only thing I can imagine (emphasis on imagine) would be a mass shooter scenario, in which case you have someone (likely armed with something better than your CCW handgun, DA/SA or otherwise) firing indiscriminately. Can you really expect to stabilize yourself enough, and long enough, to aim accurately at a moving target from that far away? If you're far enough away, running would seem the best defense. We could imagine you've already been hit, can't move, etc. and it's so dire that your last act on earth may be to make a 25-50 yard shot with your handgun, while downed, while injured, and who knows, maybe one-handed?

At some point I think the answer becomes, we're talking about handguns here, not rifles, and shots like these are hard enough to pull off against paper while standing still.

Now to the question about long-range accuracy -- which for me has never extended beyond 25 yards, as that was the longest range I had -- I think the DA/SA question likely is "cock that hammer, or consider your first shot gone." I've been shooting DA/SA for years, and at least 80% of my shooting (both live and dry) has been in DA. I'm pretty good. I could at least still hit a 12" target at 25 yards in DA, sometimes -- probably not that often.

The one thing that's made the biggest difference in my ability to hit targets further out has been a well-zeroed red dot sight on the handgun. For me it's the difference between seeing what you're aiming at, and not. I can hit 12" at 25 yards with a red dot because I can see the little target under the little dot. With iron sights, I'm pretty much guessing.

[FireForged]

What kind of scenario is imagined in which it even makes sense for a defender to take a shot down a 30-50 yard aisle of a store, for instance? The only thing I can imagine (emphasis on imagine) would be a mass shooter scenario, in which case you have someone (likely armed with something better than your CCW handgun, DA/SA or otherwise) firing indiscriminately.

Its not all that deep Brother.. firearms are ranged weapons.

Violence can occur just about anywhere and if the act is not directed at you, it may be directed at someone else who you are inclined to defend. The question isn't "what kind of scenario". The question is "what exactly are you willing to do in defense of yourself and others. The second part of that is a very realistic examination of your personal skill and whether or not your "skill" lines up with what you consider yourself willing to do.

It doesn't really matter if its a active shooter, domestic dispute, gang conflict or armed robbery. The danger associated with serious violence and method in which you assess it and ultimately manage it, doesn't really change all that much. Taking it on is management and so is fleeing from it. You simply decide.

Can you really expect to stabilize yourself enough, and long enough, to aim accurately at a moving target from that far away?

No matter if I think I can or not. I ask myself one question: What must I do? If I don't have to engage some lunatic with a gun, I wont. If I simply MUST do it, .. therein lies the answer.

Train for it or don't. Personally, I don't train for a 50 yard pistol shot. I do not stay awake at night worrying about it. If I did, I would train for it.

If you're far enough away, running would seem the best defense.

sure.. I will always avoid a fight if I can.

[AgedWarrior]

This may sound silly to some, but one of the ways to help develop your DA trigger pull skills is in simply developing the muscles of your hands, especially if you have had surgery. Using a simple squeezer exerciser that is adjustable can develop the strength in your hands to help considerably. This is not a factor for everyone necessarily, but it can help...a lot. Two years ago I went through some pretty extensive surgeries that weakened my whole body because I was so debilitated for several months. When I got back on the firing range finally, I found myself needing to work more than I already had to restore my strength and muscle tone. The final thing to regain my handgun skills was religious use of a squeezer for weeks, adjusting it a bit stronger every week.

[fastbolt]

One of the tools I use to help refine and maintain finger strength for trigger press technique is to use some different sized/density poly-gel type hand exercise balls. I can use them for overall hand/finger strength, as well as just to exercise my index fingers (both hands, naturally).

It also helps to maintain my ability to separate the use and control of my index (trigger) finger's contraction without also "milking" the grip using the rest of my fingers.

A number of companies offer different sets of varying densities, as well as shapes (round ball or egg-shaped).

I keep a set of them in the great room for nights when I'm watching TV.

FWIW, the tackiness of them also makes them interesting to use in the place of chromoly and stainless steel balls, as you can't just roll them against and over each other, but have to separately grasp, lift and control their movements around each other (used in pairs). For my purpose, it helps develop and refine a greater degree of tactile finger sensory awareness and dexterity (used for martial arts hand/finger development).

[TunnelRat]

Besides balls a number of companies make hand exercisers that separate out each finger. ProHands is one such company.

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[JERRYS.]

I concur. practice then training over gadgets and gizmos.

[Tactical Jackalope]

I concur. practice then training over gadgets and gizmos.

Every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

But that doesn't mean we're not allowed to talk about gadgets every now and again. Especially when getting the former out of the way before the discussion.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Tactical Jackalope

Every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

But that doesn't mean we're not allowed to talk about gadgets every now and again. Especially when getting the former out of the way before the discussion.

Agreed.

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[J.G. Terry]

We talk about scenarios: Several years ago I drove past a convenience store at a busy intersection. The area was taped off. The police were putting out markers for the fired cases. It was reported in the paper as a shooting. It was evident from the empties it was a gun fight. I wanted to verify my information. From information in the local newspapers it appears convenience stores have been a battleground for the gangs. I'd suggest adding this real world event in the discussion. I'm out there pumping my gas when all hell breaks loose.Take cover and call the cops should be first choice. Loss of that choice may make the 25yard shot necessary. I do not have a crystal ball. My suggestion is to take a B27 target to twenty five yards and blaze away. Remove doubt.