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December 8, 2012, 05:38 PM | #1 |
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Does stopping power work both ways?
Why is it that, when we discuss stopping power, the discussion trends toward our SD rounds (whatever the caliber or load) being shrugged off by the bad guy.....but the BG's guns & ammo has no problem striking us down like the Hammer of Thor?.....
....does this seem right to you?.....
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December 8, 2012, 05:41 PM | #2 |
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who's saying the bad guy isnt using SD rounds also?
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December 8, 2012, 05:42 PM | #3 |
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I'm not sure I've ever seen a post that says you have to die just because you catch a bullet during a fight.
But for those who don't know: A wide majority of people hit with handgun ammunition survive, as do significant numbers of those hit with rifle and shotgun fire. If you're alive enough to know you were hit, you are alive enough to choose survival: stop the bad guy so he doesn't hit you again, then stanch your bleeding and walk/limp/crawl/drag yourself to a phone where you can call for help. Stay awake and alert until help arrives. Don't quit. Don't teach others to quit. pax |
December 8, 2012, 07:29 PM | #4 |
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More often than not, both ends of the spectrum are exaggerated in one way or another.
One side makes the argument that the right bullet is like a Star Trek phaser, the wrong bullet, is like a cork gun, the bad guys can't hit the broad-side of a barn from the inside and the good guys are masters of Ninjitsu and James Bond mixed with Neo. The truth is that most modern defensive bullets perform about the same from any cailber/cartridge, the Bad Guy is likely to be using something similar, no bullet guarantees instant incapacitation without a CNS hit, the Good Guy is likely to miss a lot, and the BG will miss too, except he might not miss, and the GG isn't Neo or James Bond and (s)he's likely to get shot too. While many bullet wounds are not fatal like a phaser, they do have a way of massively disrupting your plans. A hit in the arm, for instance, isn't going to blow your arm off (whether it's a 45acp or a .25acp) but either of those (or most anything else) does have an EXCELLENT probability of rendering that arms nearly or totally useless. Expect to get hurt. Expect to hurt back. Never give up until the light fades.
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December 8, 2012, 07:53 PM | #5 |
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Seeker you are 100% right, I've said so over and over again, in this forum. As someone who has actually seen the effects of a GSW on a person (Retired nurse) it takes a lot to incapacitate a determined human.
Sometimes only the catastrophic loss of blood is enough and death is the reason for the incapacitation. We used to look at at each other after we would see really severe trauma's from any source and ask ourselves how they even made it to us alive let alone pulled through. This was not at all unusual. Here is a useful fact to add to this though, the ones who remained conscious and fought for life seemed to be able to take far more damage and live. I know that sounds almost too simple. "They were hurt less, that was why they were awake." No, quite often the ones who were unconscious seemed to be hurt less, and we were surprised they didn't make it. Human will is an amazing, wonderful, thing don't underestimate yours.
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December 8, 2012, 07:54 PM | #6 | ||
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If in fact this does occur though, it may be because the bad guy is the assailant with the a premeditated attitude and a goal of killing his victim. Where on the other hand the victim is reacting in surprise, fear and whatever to the attack, if they are aware at all. This brings to mind what Jeff Copper taught with his color codes. He taught that it was nearly impossible for someone to make the change of attitude of white to yellow in sufficient time to react with the necessary force to save their life. He considered it to take too much time for someone in condition white to assess the situation, accept the threat, and then move into the attitude (yellow or orange or red) to be able to offer violence in return for the attack that precipitated it all. I agree with: Quote:
Do not expect the fight to end with the showing of your firearm. Do not expect the fight to end if you deliver two shots center of mass.
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December 8, 2012, 07:54 PM | #7 | |
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Regarding perspective, there is a difference between shooting to kill and shooting in self defense. There is no such thing as "stopping power" in this context, there is only the difference in the way the weapon is used, training.
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December 8, 2012, 08:18 PM | #8 | |
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It might be human nature. A variation of 'the grass is always greener.' In a similar vein, others at different times have brought up the point that the anti-gun folk believe a thug can pick up any kind of gun and instantly be proficient and leathal with it while it would take a law abiding citizen YEARS of intensive military/LEO training to be able to use the same gun to shoot back. |
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December 8, 2012, 09:20 PM | #9 |
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I'm going out on a limb here...
But, since we spend a bit of time pondering, reading and posting on these cases, perhaps we are taking a pragmatic view...or perhaps a "worst case" view.
We know what a well-placed handgun round can do, and while we hope that will be the effect on the BG, we have no way of knowing what ammo he is using, and (perhaps) we may expect the worst if we are hit. At the very least, most of us have never been shot (and hope to keep it that way) and being shot is an unknown factor (to us). I have read more than once that inner-city gang-bangers view being shot as a badge of honor. After being shot once or more (probably fairly ill-placed shots by their fellow losers) their air of invincibility is reinforced (remember these are young males who already possess that mindset to begin with)... If I am ever in such an encounter, I hope that my adversary is over-confident, under-skilled and chooses his equipment (both handgun and ammo) poorly. The only variables I can control are the ones that apply to me. I'm too small to fight, and too old and busted-up to run. My common sense, choices in equipment, my diligence in practice, my commitment to attaining and maintaining a certain skill level...and most importantly, my avoidance of putting myself in places/situations that may turn ugly... I am no longer a young pup, and I give thanks for the fact that I have lived this long. I would like to continue doing so a bit longer. Making it through the second 50 years should be easier in some regards and tougher in others. Again...focus on the factors you can control. Best, Rich |
December 8, 2012, 10:50 PM | #10 | |
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December 8, 2012, 11:26 PM | #11 |
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Since people like numbers, the general rule of thumb I've seen is that 80% of people shot with a handgun survive and 80% of people shot with a long gun do not survive.
Yes, it works both ways, HOWEVER, there's one thing to consider. From what I've seen, the experts suggest that most criminals are not particularly selective in their ammunition choices. So an informed defender using premium SD ammo may actually have an advantage (though probably not a large one) over an attacker/criminal. From what I can tell, expanding ammo isn't really any more lethal--the biggest advantage, in my opinion, is that it's more "noticeable". What I mean by that is that non-expanding ammunition may penetrate through and through without causing any immediate pain or sensation, but that is less likely with good quality expanding ammunition. I think it's a significant advantage for the defender if the attacker realizes immediately that he's been shot. He might not be any more likely to expire as a result of being shot, but it could be a major factor in changing his priorities from trying to injure the defender to seeking medical help--and, as a matter of course, ceasing hostilities.
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December 8, 2012, 11:39 PM | #12 |
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There was just today an article in the Wall Street Journal... A trauma center in Baltimore (I think) has a 4% mortality rate for Gun Shot Wounds (GSW), and that includes patients brought in who are DOA. Bottom line, a person with a gunshot wound who enters a trauma center with a pulse has a very good chance of surviving.
That is the good news. The bad news is that the point of the article is that there has been a decline in the homicide rate over the last umpteen years... but it is possible or even likely that the reason for the decline is due to improvements in hospital treatments for GSW and stabbings. It is possible that people are shooting and stabbing each other as much as they ever did, perhaps more so... but since hospitals have gotten so much better at keeping people alive, it leads to a lower homicide rate.... if the victim does not die, it is not a homicide. |
December 8, 2012, 11:43 PM | #13 |
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Maybe its due to the "expect, and prepare, for the worst, hope for the best" mentality that most Self Defense minded people have?
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December 9, 2012, 04:09 AM | #14 |
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My theory is that whatever you have, the BG might have as well. So my philosophy is shoot first, shoot well, and shoot to kill. And be the last one standing. Purple puckers don't look cool on the beach.
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December 9, 2012, 10:10 AM | #15 |
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I think the reason many do not worry with what type of bullet is in the chamber of the BG's gun is because the BG is a predator and if we need to defend our self, we want to immediately stop the threat to our life...
We do not need "stopped" as we are not the "threat" so if he is going to shoot me with a BB gun or .454 Casull I don't care to differentiate 'tween the 2... Brent |
December 9, 2012, 10:58 AM | #16 |
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While what you say is true, it is also true that once you begin to take action to defend yourself, you then become a threat to the bad guy and he will then be defending himself as well and chances are, he will have more experience doing that than you do.
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December 9, 2012, 11:03 AM | #17 | |
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Yes I do become a threat to them but in the mindset of many if not most violent predator criminals... They are often not at all prepared for confrontation as their "experience" as a predator usually has their intimidation doing all the work and their victims feel compliance is the best, safest, easiest way out of the jam they find themselves in... Brent |
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December 9, 2012, 12:08 PM | #18 |
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The simple answer about stopping power is the laws of physics and the engineering works both ways.
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December 9, 2012, 01:31 PM | #19 | ||
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The wild card will always be psychology. Often a bad guy with a survivable wound or even minor wound will give up or take off. That seems to be how the bad guy gets "stopped" by being shot in most self defense encounters. It's the times someone is sufficiently determined to fight on, no matter what and as long as at all able to, that presents the real challenge. If the bad guy is determined, he will sometimes be able to continue to effectively fight even when mortally wounded -- as was the bad guy Michael Platt in the 1986 Miami FBI "shoot-out." On the "good guy" side we have the example of LAPD Officer Stacy Lim who was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:
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December 9, 2012, 02:48 PM | #20 |
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Frank were are your three valid sources.
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December 9, 2012, 04:23 PM | #21 | |||||||||
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As Ellifritz note in his discussion of his "failure to incapacitate" data (emphasis added): Also, see the FBI paper entitled "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", by Urey W. Patrick. Agent Patrick, for example, notes on page 8: And for some more insight into wound physiology and "stopping power": [2] The circumstances of the 1986 Miami FBI shoot-out are fairly well known, but there's a good discussion in a Wikipedia article. An abstract of Dr. W. French Anderson's forensic analysis can be found here. And this (Part 1 and Part II) FBI training video on the subject is interesting. From the Wikipedia article: From the Anderson article: [3] In my prior post I linked to the source of the information on Stacy Lim.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; December 10, 2012 at 12:44 AM. Reason: correct typo |
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December 9, 2012, 06:47 PM | #22 | |
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If one shoots an attacker, and he stops but is still breathing, finishing him off becomes murder.
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December 9, 2012, 07:11 PM | #23 |
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And to add... If you do not lawyer up and you opt to speak to investigating LEA... "I shot to kill the scumbag" could be used against you in court far better and easier than "I drew my weapon and made the conscious decision that I had to stop this threat against myself and family so I fired..."
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December 10, 2012, 12:30 PM | #24 |
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I am new to this forum but my guess is that the concept of "Stopping Power" has been discussed ad nausea um on this forum.
I think one of the points that Frank Etten cites in his response that the "shock" effect is minimal should clearly be attributed to handgun rounds only. The "cavitation effect" from high V bullet rounds from a rifle is devastating. when we go through surgical training we mange High V gunshot wounds surgicly by doing dead tissue debridmonts - the amount of "Jello" and devitalized tissue in the GSW track is pretty self explanatory to anyone into terminal ballistics. As mentioned by the poster of a previous response (physics work both ways) YOU CANT BEAT PHYSICS The energy imparted by the bullet has to abide by the law of energy E=MC2 in the world of ballistic energy mass isnt the big dog on the block its Speed because the speed is squared anything going supersonic will screw you up. the other physics that hollywood producers cant grasp is that no one is thrown backwards by a small arms shot - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the BG is thrown backwards then the shooter must aslo be thrown backwards if he hangs on to his weapon. and I think that all bullets are not equal. The way the round acts once it comes in contact with the body has a lot to say about how the BG's day will go. I don't remember the name of the study but it was done in Switzerland and they shot something like 200 goats to test lethality. Because of that study I carry either MAGSAFES or GLAZERs and will not carry stuff like combat talons because of that studies data. Question - before I posted I was trying to find the DOJ study on GSW to the head that showed a ridiculously low "put down" rate from handguns. Anyone have that? we stopped doing the "mozambique / el presidente drills to the head after that study and started third tapping the pelvic girdle after that one |
December 10, 2012, 02:06 PM | #25 | |||
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[2] And yes, our focus is handgun rounds. The focus of our discussions is self defense by private citizens, including the carrying of firearms by private citizens for self defense. That most commonly involves handguns. [3] All the material I cited and quoted very clearly relates to handgun rounds. Quote:
[2] That equation is useful do describe the energy produced in nuclear reactions when a small amount of matter is lost and is converted to energy. [3] The factor "c" is not speed. It is rather the speed of light (roughly 186,000 miles/second). The speed of light is a common constant in many equations of physics, and the letter "c" is commonly used in physics equations to refer to the speed of light. Quote:
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; December 10, 2012 at 08:17 PM. Reason: correct typo |
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