Strobe me, bro!

[Lohman446]

It's how my son was taught two years ago.

Its how I was trained by a former officer / instructor 15 years ago. I did not know if it was the current method or how long it lasted. Been doing it too long in practice to change it now.

[raimius]

Glen, how effective is a quick flash, then movement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7FemqK3JU
Seems like something like this would be effective. Light, move, shoot.

[FireForged]

If I am pointing a firearm at someone, we are well past the point that I would opt for passive techniques. If I am pointing a gun at someone, I want to view them clearly and in a manner which is unobstructed. A flashing strobe is not going to help me to do that as a strobe is simply an inhibitor by way of distraction and disorientation. I would not have a strobe on my gun. I think a strobe is much better suited as a signaling device and not some sort of defensive aid.

I think a weapon mounted light has its place in some very limited circumstances but generally speaking, I would not want to use a weapon light as a primary light source. As a citizen, I do not want to have to point the barrel of my gun any everything I want to look at. If I were going to have a weapon mounted light, I would also have a handheld light to use as primary. If I could only have one light, it would NOT be a weapon mounted light.

[shafter]

People forget that you do not have to point your gun at anything to illuminate it. We're talking 300-500 lumens here. All you have to do is point at the floor and you can easily see enough to identify anyone who is in the room.

A weapon light enables you to keep one hand free to open doors, call 911, fend off someone who jumps you at close range etc, all while keeping your gun and illumination in action. Too bulky for concealed carry, but I think they're ideal for home defense or those who carry for work.

[Lohman446]

fend off someone who jumps you at close range

I fail to see how an appropriate flash light hinders this particular option.

[TailGator]

All you have to do is point at the floor and you can easily see enough to identify anyone who is in the room.

Is this not true of hand-held flashlights, as well? A person using a flashlight in his or her off hand need not handle it with great precision, right?

[GarandTd]

I'm not sold on the strobe feature, but for home defense, I think a weapon mounted light makes sense. Whether mounted to your firearm or in your hand, your position has been compromised if you're shining a light around. I understand not wanting to point the weapon at something you're not willing to destroy, but if I'm already investigating, gun in hand, I'm beyond that point....I think.

I don't have a weapon mounted light. This is hypothetical for me.

[stephen426]

Strobe is pretty annoying, but far from incapacitating. Would you bet your life on it? I can point shoot pretty well and a strobe light makes a pretty good target. I'm sure the strobe effect would mess with your vision as well.

I have the combination light/laser from Crimson Trace for my Glock 43. With the integrated laser, you could theoretically hold the gun away from your body and still light someone up. The integrated laser would give you better confidence for making hits on target. I don't use the strobe feature though since I find it pretty annoying.

[Mainah]

Dang, now I'm regretting the disco ball that I got for my hd pistol.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There is quite a debate about the utility of hand held flashlights vs. weapons mounted lights. There may be a differentiation between police/military and civilan usages.

So - I think we have established that the strobe as a blinding or nonlethal option is pretty nonsensical. Why?

1. It doesn't disconcert lots of people. If it is disconcerting to some - it might be you are one of time. If you find it troublesome when looking into the light, it will be when you are strobing the bad person.

2. Distance - and angle - both dramatically decrease the effects.

3. They give you away. If you are clearing your house (Big note - bad plan unless in extremis to rescue someone, you are the target. As an opponent that took cover and waited to ambush the 'good guy' I found lights a delightful target opportunity. Dust in the air make a path to you, BTW. Gunsmoke - my friends - think about it. It may not matter to an entry team in the military or police, but it will to Johnny Commando in his PJs of death.

4. Are you truly dark adapted? Given my degree, I can describe in horrendously boring detail how this works. Let's say that you are truly in the dark for more than 30 minutes - not a room that has some light leaks, like the standard bedroom. Thus, you are at peak rod and cone sensitivity. You can detect a match miles away. So, take a really bright flashlight and light up the room ahead of you. A real flame thrower tac light. I've done this. Guess what - you say a tremendously bright image of the room that causes you to slam your eyes shut reflexively (good move - Eh?) and you see a positive afterimage that lasts several seconds and clearly interfers with vision.

BTW - this speaks to the quick flash and move technique. It's a good idea but you can get a big blind spot from the flash.

5. The off body holds - nice idea but if you are not an idiot you know where the person is because of:

a. light leaks and bounces off the surrounds.
b. You are not an idiot - if you see the light high in the air and you know most people are carrying it in their left hand - there's the dude. Fire a volley at the projected spot. Did that in FOF.

Proper light usage is incredibly useful but naive use of gadgets aren't that useful. You got to try this.

Against a hidden opponent - it's iffy. One reason not to explore. Of course, your home invader won't hunker down and wait for PJ wearing Shotgun Racking Light Bearer.

One vision thing for the elderly - when my cataracts started I didn't realize how they impaired my vision. I could see you fine in the daytime, or so I thought. I did have problems with glare at night which was getting bad. However, in a night (or really a simulated dark shoot house), I couldn't see poop. I totally missed a guy in dark clothes with a dark gun. I was dead and the SO looked at me like I was an idiot. He was correct.

[riverratt]

I have one on my HD handgun. We use the flashlight feature only and that is only really for my wife who can't see squat in the dark. She knows if a bad guy was entering the house where to take the kids and barricade at. The light really serves 2 purposes #1) Illuminate the target so she can identify it. #2) add weight to the handgun to reduce recoil. It knocks just enough "snap" off that she can shoot it much better then without.

As far as disorienting the bg it may for a second if they ain't expecting it but I wouldn't rely on it.

[Lohman446]

I understand not wanting to point the weapon at something you're not willing to destroy, but if I'm already investigating, gun in hand, I'm beyond that point....I think

I'm one of those "go see what that noise was" type people. There are a series of reasons involving not having a reason to believe I would be the planned target of competent criminals, police response time, and living in the sticks - besides I would feel a bit stupid calling the police every time I heard a noise. Most of the time what I am investigating is a commotion from the dogs and is outside

It would be highly inappropriate to have a weapon at a low ready position or pointed at some biker going by at night or the people on horses. The few times its been lost individuals stopping in cars would likely also be an issue. A gun "casually" in my right hand and behind my leg is enough of a message for anyone who may not be as "lost" as they suddenly decide they are. Its plenty adequate for the raccoon that is far more likely and better then nothing should it be a bear or such.

I know the time honored advise of "barricade yourself and your family and call the police". If I knew it was an intruder in the house - sure. But I doubt this is the plan that most people on these boards go with for every bump in the night

[FireForged]

We're talking 300-500 lumens

I wont be using 300-500 lumens for anything. Certainly not inside my home while in absolute darkness.

All you have to do is point at the floor

have you ever been in a real crisis before? If you have then I am sure that you have at one time or another, ran into a problem. Think about the last time that everything went south... now consider that someone tells you, "all you have to do is". ( It sounds a little silly when you consider it that way). I have learned that the world is not perfect and if all you have is a weapon mounted light, you are at some point going to have to choose between using it poorly with the muzzle down or making the best use of it by pointing the gun in the direction that you need light. You say its enough light while pointed down?... well maybe in a perfect world it is. The world aint perfect and not all circumstances flow in the way you would expect.

[TXdino]

In the military and LE training I've had, the weapon mounted light was useful for CQB clearing where you are the aggressor but was discouraged for defensive use or search. The biggest problem being the temptation to use the weapon light as just a light leading to pointing a loaded weapon at whatever you were trying to illuminate which is inappropriate and needlessly dangerous in many circumstances, think startle reflex, weapon safety, flashing friendlies, etc. I was taught a handheld flashlight is more appropriate for most LE or defensive scenarios with your choice of techniques (such as flash, fire, move).I've played with strobes and found them irritating but not causing any effects good and bad beyond what a steady bright light does.

[hdwhit]

Lohman446 wrote:
I did not know if it was the current method or how long it lasted.

All I can say is that's how my son was taught and it's the technique the officers were using a few months ago to search for one of the people who ran from a traffic stop and tried to hide in the weeds along the creek that cuts through our back yard.

My son was home at the time and provided a sort of play-by-play of what the officers were doing and what we could expect to see them doing next. It was kind of like watching a live documentary film.

[hdwhit]

Glenn E. Meyer wrote:
So - I think we have established that the strobe as a blinding or nonlethal option is pretty nonsensical. Why?
1. It doesn't disconcert lots of people.

Well, it probably wouldn't disconcert anyone who has been to a disco, played laser tag or or watched a music video by The Smiths in the last couple of decades.

[GarandTd]

My comments thus far pertain to indoors. Home defense includes the outside of the home for sure, but I think my tactics would be different for an outside disturbance vs one inside my home. None of my pets stay out at night and the outside of my house has flood lights, some of which are motion activated. If there is something going on out there, I can light the place up and observe from the darkness behind locked doors. Outside, I would probably opt for the shotgun which doesn't have a rail for a mounted light. My pistol does and is better suited to the tight spaces indoors.

[shafter]

We're talking 300-500 lumens

I wont be using 300-500 lumens for anything. Certainly not inside my home while in absolute darkness.


Quote:
All you have to do is point at the floor

have you ever been in a real crisis before? If you have then I am sure that you have at one time or another, ran into a problem. Think about the last time that everything went south... now consider that someone tells you, "all you have to do is". ( It sounds a little silly when you consider it that way). I have learned that the world is not perfect and if all you have is a weapon mounted light, you are at some point going to have to choose between using it poorly with the muzzle down or making the best use of it by pointing the gun in the direction that you need light. You say its enough light while pointed down?... well maybe in a perfect world it is. The world aint perfect and not all circumstances flow in the way you would expect.

I'm a law enforcement officer. I'm well aware of how things go during a crisis. I'm also not in the habit of making theoretical suggestions or blanket statements. I've used a weapon light in the manner I suggested countless times. The reason I mentioned that method is because it seems a lot of people are against a weapon light because they feel it forces you to point your weapon at a target that hasn't been identified yet. I'm saying that you don't necessarily have to. A good light should enable you to tell the difference between your son/daughter/wife/etc and a stranger, and if it's a stranger you will probably want your weapon pointed at them if they're in your house. Give it a trial run and see what you think.

[FireForged]

I dont think a weapon mounted light forces anyone to do anything but I do believe that it can foster a circumstance where you must routinely choose between what is prudent and what may not be. Specifically I mean pointing a weapon at something you would have never otherwise pointed it at- had you not felt compelled to use the light expeditiously. A weapon mounted light may work just fine when things go as expected, but things do not always work out that way. Bad things do not always stay within defined or expected parameters. I do not adopt a methodology which relies substantially on everything happening just the way I expect it. I adopt a method that will afford me the greatest options in the most varying of circumstances. To that end, a weapon mounted light which is used as a primary source of light isn't it.

[briandg]

It is going to be a disorienting effect and could cause an advantage for you. If that strobe is absolutely blinding, a strobe hotter than a camera flash, jeebus, that's going to hurt, and in a darkened situation people will reflexively recoil from it. Don't minimize what can or can't work when talking about this sort of thing, and don't make the assumption that the BG will always be a tactically trained assailant.

Aim that sucker down a hallway and it will cause trouble, but it is also true that the thing is a target. Once that thing has cycled once or twice, the BG may be just shooting at the blur.

Keep in mind that a strobe is going to be disorienting for yourself as well.

All things considered, i'm not convinced that it is going to be a definite plus, but it could be helpful in limited scenarios. Flash bangs are essentially single strobe rounds.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Oh, well.

I see you recommend aiming from what seems a stationary position down a hallway for a significant amount of time.

You assume your opponent may not be minimally competent (that seems to be a great plan and a major tenet of military tactics and law enforcement that has led to many successful encounters).

Of course, firing at a blur (which is you) can't lead to hits to the center of the blur.

Stick with these ideas not being a definite plus, you had that right.

[Lohman446]

The problem I have with firearm mounted flashlights is there is a major difference in intent between shining someone with a flashlight and pointing a firearm at them. But mounting the two together you eliminate the difference.

There are a lot of situations where I would shine someone with a flashlight that I would not point a gun at them.

[GarandTd]

Lohman, I agree, but if I am casing my house or property with a gun in hand, I'm past that point. I have flashlights if that is all I need. Keep in mind, this applies to me alone as everyone's situation and tolerance, paranoia, cautiousness, etc...vary significantly.

[Lohman446]

Lohman, I agree, but if I am casing my house or property with a gun in hand, I'm past that point. I have flashlights if that is all I need. Keep in mind, this applies to me alone as everyone's situation and tolerance, paranoia, cautiousness, etc...vary significantly.

You are right that the judgement here is individual in nature. I am often enough looking around with a flashlight in hand a gun on me or even in my other hand. I still think there is a step between gun in hand and pointing gun at someone that I prefer being distinct. I get the argument that, especially with someone in the house, there need not be that distinction.

[briandg]

Glen, be serious, I neither recommended nor assumed any of that, read it again if you have to

Standing in a hallway using a strobe is obviously stupid but from around a corner it's going to shake any opponent, may end the engagement, and will cause temporary night blindness. Everything is going to be a blur. Is this neutron, the wife's crazy ex? He's probably going to leave, and any ordinary criminals will at least be delayed and deterred.

I said that a strobe is going to be a specialist tool, that there weren't many applications where it could actually be useful or helpful, and it's possible that it could diminish your capabilities as well. It's wasted weight for at least eight hours a day. Should I have called it a useless gimmick that will invariably cause more harm than good, or be honest and admit that sometimes it could

don't make the assumption that the BG will always be a tactically trained assailant.

That's not saying to assume that the opponent is going to be a loser with a stolen high point, it's a comment that many people assume that small efforts are useless. Someone here even said that pepper spray isn't effective because it takes too long and some people would be able to fight back.

The chance that an average guy will find himself crossing swords with a quality combat specialist is pretty low, isn't it? Don't dismiss any tool without a car better one in reserve.

I hadn't seen your post about the immunity people have probably developed to strobes, I have to agree. But it begs the question, why do they use them in paintball or laser tag? Because of the disorientation and confusion they cause. Why do they use them in clubs? The same thing. People who are vulnerable will feel the effect of the visual errors as confusing fun, sort of like being drunk.

A high powered strobe could cause a serious distraction and it might be useful. Nobody should count on it. As I said, I'm not sure that it will be an overall asset and I think that better ideas should be pursued.